Leftover Discussion Thread: AL Special Election

[DiogenesLamp]

@Jazzhead

It pains me greatly to say this, but I agree.  Especially on the 'lazy' part.

Because harder work would have given him the victory.   


There might have been two people in Alabama that hadn't yet made up their mind,  and they might have been persuaded if Moore had just held some more campaign rallies or something. 

[Free Vulcan]

Tempo?   He was accused of attempting to rape a girl,   and molesting an underaged girl.   What on God's green earth does "Tempo"  have to do with it?   


Moore could have been in a Coma in the Hospital and still won if these accusations hadn't been ginned up.

The problem is that they knocked him on his heels, and campaign was reactive from there. I'll grant he was financially hamstrung, but his counter-PR never got it's footing, and disappearing from the trail the last few weeks did him no favors. He ended up playing their game, instead of his.

Whether changing that would have made a difference in the election I don't know. The GOP turned out well, the Dems turnout was near unbelieveable.

[edpc]

That is hand waving.   That is a "fact"  not in evidence.   Just how do you defend a man against accusations that he dropped an investigation in exchange for a Senate appointment?   

Especially since the governor in question did ACTUALLY resign and is considered "dirty".   

All the media has to do is keep repeating it,  and the usually suspects around here (and elsewhere)  would say "we can't support this deeply flawed candidate."   

I think pointing out numerous past examples where this same tactic has been employed to cause a loss is pretty good evidence that it would once again be employed and would have likely been successful in this last election.

No it's speculation on your part and nothing else. Strange was endorsed by a President who won the state easily a year ago. Trump was also accused of corruption and sexual impropriety, but they still voted for him overwhelmingly.  How would voters in this state be so easily swayed by the media in one instance but not the other?

[XenaLee]

Does Trump hatred extend to the point that people would deliberately spike the party and the movement just to fulfill their own prophecies about Trump being a "bad" candidate?   


Possibly it was a factor,   but I perceive that there were a lot of people who simply hated Moore because they hate old white religious types becoming involved in politics.  


They looked for reasons to support their disdain for the man,   and embraced any they found unquestioningly.

Perhaps, but that's neither here nor there.   I firmly believe that had the rats not pulled a Herman Cain on Moore, he would have won and beat the Democrat handily.  They did, once again, what works for them.  And that is partly (if not mostly) due to stupidity and gullibility of the American voters.  Most voters have no clue who the rats are, what they represent and what depths they will delve into (sewage level) in order to win.

[DiogenesLamp]

He's busy mocking the tenth. Didn't even make it past there.

The tenth effectively has little meaning anymore.   It is routinely ignored in both spirit and letter,  and primarily because of the poorly written and over extensive 14th. 

[skeeter]

Leaves us with a nice, ready answer in our breast pockets, doesn't it?

Yeah, but thats some measly consolation prize.

[Silver Pines]

Any (and every) time a Democrat wins....  America loses.

And anyone blaming Conservatism for this and any other thing that's wrong with politics these days is only outing themselves and their real ideology and agenda.

What this election proves is that the Democrats (and Soros) can throw money at the politics of personal destruction and slander and win .... because there are just that many (or just enough) morons out there that will fall for it every time its tried.

Sad, that.

@XenaLee

I'm outed again as a Soros Democrat. 

I'll say it again, when people on the right get behind a credibly accused molester, conservatism means nothing anymore.  It's dead.

Can't blame the left for that.

[edpc]

Whoever runs against McConnel in the primary or the General will get my donations, Even if Hillary moves to Kentucky and runs for the seat.

They had their chance the last go around to primary him.  It's not like the candidate was bad, because they thought enough of Bevin to later make him governor.

[Silver Pines]

And little birds could chirp in the forest to achieve the same degree of rationality it would engender.   


The "herd"   was turned because it was spooked.   
 

@DiogenesLamp

Silly females.

Face it, the only people whose chirps mattered chirped by writing in someone besides the two train wrecks running.

[DiogenesLamp]

I don't blame the anti-Trump Republicans so much as the failure of the religious types in the rural areas to turn out.  It shows that sliming Moore with the sexual stuff had its desired effect on many religious conservatives.  Because they had doubts, they stayed home.

This part I consider quite likely correct.   

Moore also made a serious mistake in failing to show his face in public toward the end.

This part I think is overblown.   I don't think Moore showing his face more and more toward's the end would have changed very many people's minds.   

[Cyber Liberty]

Yeah, but thats some measly consolation prize.

Well...yeah.  But we'd just have to find another had he won and Chinless stilled whiffed the Tax vote.

[DiogenesLamp]

I will, because the only people on any position to 'get Trump' were the AL voters that turned out in much larger numbers last Nov and gave him 62% of the vote.  These are voters that heard Trump get maligned much heavier and longer than Moore.  They didn't believe in Roy.  Why should anyone outside AL?

Did I miss the part where Trump was accused,  judged and convicted of Kiddie rape by many of his fellow party members?   

[Hoodat]

Because harder work would have given him the victory.

Yes.

[Hoodat]

Did I miss the part where Trump was accused,  judged and convicted of Kiddie rape by many of his fellow party members?   

Trump worked harder than Moore.

[Hoodat]

@XenaLee

I'm outed again as a Soros Democrat.

Impossible.  I never see you at any of the meetings.

[edpc]

Did I miss the part where Trump was accused,  judged and convicted of Kiddie rape by many of his fellow party members?   

No - and neither did I, because I referred to it indirectly in the post you quoted and directly in comment 808.

[Silver Pines]

Sarc away.... but the fact remains.... that those opposed to Moore in order to "get Trump" or stick it to Trump due to their hatred and bias against him just took a giant step towards handing the keys of the nation back to the enemy within.... the DemocRats.  Roll your eyes on that fact.

See, with this mindset to butt up against, you can't have a reasonable discussion.  Criticism of Trump is "hate."  Simply not liking the man is "hate."  I've never liked him, but the last time I checked, Americans are under no obligation to "like" any politician.  So why do we portray dislike as a violent, passionate emotion when few people are that emotionally wrapped up in politics?

When the allegations came out against Moore, I didn't know what to think.  I formed my opinion later, when more information came out.  So I guess I'm at least one who isn't engaged in some scheme to "get" Trump.

[Smokin Joe]

Your commentary has been exceptionally relevant for the last several pages.   

Thank You, as has yours.

[mountaineer]

It must be great, there's so much of it!

[DiogenesLamp]

What the Moore-hating doofuses don't realize is that the Dems do this in every race. They did it to my candidates when I was running their campaign, now they've taken it up another level with Moore.

Yes,  it's astonishing to me that they don't recognize this playbook.   It's like this sort of smear tactic is an utterly new thing to them,   while the rest of us have seen it happen over and over again already.   

Expect every candidate from here to get Cained and Cruzed, and watch the oh so morally superior so-called conservatives run and hide on every one.

Oh that won't happen.   The people who lose after all sorts of malicious accusations against them are weaponized by the establishment media,   will have been found to be "bad candidates."   

[DiogenesLamp]

Oh pish posh.    The right of gays to marry was found in the 14th amendment,

In the manner that a Magician "finds"  a rabbit in a Hat. 



In 1868,  "gays"  would have been tossed into houses of bedlam.  Or Prison. 

[XenaLee]

@XenaLee

I'm outed again as a Soros Democrat. 

I'll say it again, when people on the right get behind a credibly accused molester, conservatism means nothing anymore.  It's dead.

Can't blame the left for that.

You've outted yourself as a Soros drone?

Okey dokey, then.

First of all.... none of what Moore was accused of has been proven as factual.  Moore may have been a flawed person and a flawed candidate, but that does not mean that he is a child molester, as you have accused him of being.

So... give my regards to Georgy.  Cause he is definitely headed for Hell.  You want to join him?

Bearing false witness (the ninth Commandment) against someone merely accused and NOT PROVEN to be a child molester is a sin, by the way.  And then blaming Conservatives and/or Conservatism is a dead giveaway.  You and Georgy have a nice life.   ^-^

[Silver Pines]

@CatherineofAragon et al

Throughout this campaign, I purposely reserved judgment against Moore, waiting for more evidence to come forth.  I was willing to dismiss the yearbook scribblings and the 40-year-old claims against him in the absence of any established patterns.  However, examining his behavior during the campaign, I can only conclude that there is something not right about him.

Many here have held him up as a standard-bearer of the Christian faith.  However, it is clear by his inaction that he is driven by fear instead of faith.  And fear is a sin.

So regardless of his guilt or innocence with these old charges, what matters to me now is this:

• Moore was not willing to fight to win the seat.  He shied from campaigning.  He failed to make is case for why he would make a good Senator.
  
  
• Moore was not able to admit the above.  He lacks the humility to admit his flaws, and to recognize that he had no business entering this race to begin with.  And even now, that same ego will not allow him to concede defeat.

Just my two cents.

@Hoodat

Your point of view is similar to mine.  I said a moment ago that I didn't know what to think when the story first broke.  I formed my opinion later, when more information was released.

Very good insights on your part, I think.  Aside from the sex issue, it's not hard to see that Moore is an unfit candidate.  He said that he didn't take a salary from his nonprofit, but that was proven to be a lie; he also had his family on the payroll.  He's sleazy, shifty, and a grandstander. 

When it comes to the molestation charges, his story constantly changed.  He didn't behave like an innocent man.

[XenaLee]

Thank You, as has yours.

You're my favorite poster here!   ^-^

[Silver Pines]

As I've said several times previously to you directly today, Roy Moore has forgotten more about our Constitution than you, and many others here,  will ever know!

lol

[XenaLee]

See, with this mindset to butt up against, you can't have a reasonable discussion.  Criticism of Trump is "hate."  Simply not liking the man is "hate."  I've never liked him, but the last time I checked, Americans are under no obligation to "like" any politician.  So why do we portray dislike as a violent, passionate emotion when few people are that emotionally wrapped up in politics?

When the allegations came out against Moore, I didn't know what to think.  I formed my opinion later, when more information came out.  So I guess I'm at least one who isn't engaged in some scheme to "get" Trump.

So... in your mind... my comment about "their" equated to mean you?

Methinks that thou doest protesteth too much.   

[DiogenesLamp]

Nothing like being thrown to the wolves by "your own" party at the first sign of allegations, and having your national party funding pulled, except maybe being threatened by one of "your own" with being unseated the moment you get elected. The death of the GOP has begun.

These acts reinforce the credibility of the accusations in the public's mind.    There is a certain amount of "herd mentality"  at work in any human population,    and many people simply said "well,  the accusations must be true,  or else the Republicans wouldn't have suspended their funding of this candidate.


The behavior of the National party sent the message to the public that the accusations had merit.   

[Free Vulcan]

Yes,  it's astonishing to me that they don't recognize this playbook.   It's like this sort of smear tactic is an utterly new thing to them,   while the rest of us have seen it happen over and over again already.   

Sad part is, it's already happening, literally the very next day.

Kentucky Rep. Dan Johnson won't resign, says sexual abuse allegations are politically motivated
Courier Journal, Dec 12 2017, Phillip M. Bailey and Thomas Novelly

A Kentucky lawmaker accused of sexually abusing a teenager said Tuesday that he would not resign from office and that the allegations are false and politically motivated.

"This allegation concerning this lady, this young girl, absolutely has no merit, these are unfounded accusations, totally," state Rep. Dan Johnson, R-Mount Washington, said at a press conference at his church attended by family, campaign volunteers and members of his congregation.

Johnson, a self-anointed "pope" of his congregation, is accused of sexually abusing a member of Heart of Fire Church in the Fern Creek area when she was 17.

The woman, who is now 21, alleges Johnson molested her after a New Year’s party in 2012, according to a wide-ranging report on Johnson published Monday by the Kentucky Center for Investigative Reporting...

And Republican House leaders, including Speaker Pro Tempore David Osborne, said in a statement that the latest allegations were "shocking" and that Johnson should resign. The group said the "victim’s statements, made on the record in her own name, are compelling and deeply troubling."

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/politics/2017/12/12/dan-johnson-sexual-abuse-allegations-kentucky-legislator/942339001/

[Smokin Joe]

I will, because the only people on any position to 'get Trump' were the AL voters that turned out in much larger numbers last Nov and gave him 62% of the vote.  These are voters that heard Trump get maligned much heavier and longer than Moore.  They didn't believe in Roy.  Why should anyone outside AL?

Naybe because peopel weren't running around from both parties calling Trump a baby raper.

[Silver Pines]

You've outted yourself as a Soros drone?

Okey dokey, then.

First of all.... none of what Moore was accused of has been proven as factual.  Moore may have been a flawed person and a flawed candidate, but that does not mean that he is a child molester, as you have accused him of being.

So... give my regards to Georgy.  Cause he is definitely headed for Hell.  You want to join him?

Bearing false witness (the ninth Commandment) against someone merely accused and NOT PROVEN to be a child molester is a sin, by the way.  And then blaming Conservatives and/or Conservatism is a dead giveaway.  You and Georgy have a nice life.   ^-^

Lmao

[XenaLee]

Impossible.  I never see you at any of the meetings.

Well... obviously....

she Skypes them.   

[DiogenesLamp]

True, the NYC media spewed their predictable propaganda as lavishly as usual. Which was lapped up nationally.

But I'm as sure the money Soros & the democrats sent to Alabama bought alot of commericals & get-out-the-vote time locally. Handing out cigarettes to bums and driving buses form poll to poll statewide on election night costs money.

There is probably some truth to that.   Yes,  money had some impact,   but it wasn't the deciding factor.   


It was the lies spread by Moore's opponents in both the Democrat and Republican parties. 

[edpc]

Maybe because people weren't running around from both parties calling Trump a baby raper.

No, people from both parties were just calling him a misogynistic, libertine, Russian-colluding whoremaster.

[XenaLee]

These acts reinforce the credibility of the accusations in the public's mind.    There is a certain amount of "herd mentality"  at work in any human population,    and many people simply said "well,  the accusations must be true,  or else the Republicans wouldn't have suspended their funding of this candidate.


The behavior of the National party sent the message to the public that the accusations had merit.

True, come to think of it.   The RINOe set the stage on this defeat as much as the Soros Democrats did.  Good point.

Seriously and sadly... this will only result in yet more voters staying home next year rather than vote GOP.

[XenaLee]

No, people from both parties were just calling him a misogynistic, libertine, Russian-colluding whoremaster.

You left out "Obama bed-peeing"...lol.

[Silver Pines]

Impossible.  I never see you at any of the meetings.

@Hoodat

Plausible deniability.  George's new rule. 

[DiogenesLamp]

Then revisit some of the other posters that referred to his campaign style in more plain language. Perhaps they explained it better.

The confusion for me is the belief you express that "style"  had the slightest thing to do with it.   


Pray tell,  what sort of candidate could have "styled"  his way out of accusations of rape and child molestation?     

What sort of candidate could have survived having his party withdraw finances while alleging the accusations made the candidate unworthy of their support?   


Ronald Reagan would have been wrecked had something like this happened to him. 

[edpc]

You left out "Obama bed-peeing"...lol.

Well....that was implied with the last part.

For the record, I never believed the dossier story or the collusion nonsense.  I have no doubt he was a skirt chaser.  Nevertheless, my problem with him has been authenticity.  I fully expect to be disappointed in his lack of conservatism down the road, as we were with Bush 41 and 43.

[driftdiver]

You've outted yourself as a Soros drone?

Okey dokey, then.

First of all.... none of what Moore was accused of has been proven as factual.  Moore may have been a flawed person and a flawed candidate, but that does not mean that he is a child molester, as you have accused him of being.

So... give my regards to Georgy.  Cause he is definitely headed for Hell.  You want to join him?

Bearing false witness (the ninth Commandment) against someone merely accused and NOT PROVEN to be a child molester is a sin, by the way.  And then blaming Conservatives and/or Conservatism is a dead giveaway.  You and Georgy have a nice life.   ^-^

Who was the credibly accused 'child molester'?  Heck harvey Weinstein is the only one I've heard of recently in the press and he isnt a politician.

[DiogenesLamp]

Yes. So being Conservative in 2017 means thinking America is the root of evil in the free world, jailing gays, having a Jewish lawyer and arguing the bible supersedes the Constitution......or at least the parts you agree with (These are all things Roy Moore said out of his own mouth in front of a camera).

Good luck with that.

Yes,  it was all that stuff that cost him the election.   

Sharpest knife in the drawer you are. 

[Cyber Liberty]

@Hoodat

Plausible deniability.  George's new rule.

@CatherineofAragon

George only told you it was a new rule to get on your good side.  True.   

[DiogenesLamp]

Conservatives, at least 'real conservatives', didn't ""go over to the other side"".  They just didn't vote.  They allowed the seriousness of the charges/accusations against Moore to weigh in on their decision not to vote.  Just as.... many will sit home next year, rather than vote for a RINO-controlled GOP that has betrayed them pretty much every step of the way.  Unfortunately, many have no clue just how critical it is that the Democrats, including the RINOs, be kept out of power.  They will find out...

the hard way.

In keeping with my constantly voiced contention that elections are binary,  "not voting"  still creates a binary result,  and in this case helped the guy who won.   

Doug Jones benefited massively from "conservatives"   who didn't conserve anything. 

[Sanguine]

The confusion for me is the belief you express that "style"  had the slightest thing to do with it.   


Pray tell,  what sort of candidate could have "styled"  his way out of accusations of rape and child molestation?     

What sort of candidate could have survived having his party withdraw finances while alleging the accusations made the candidate unworthy of their support?   


Ronald Reagan would have been wrecked had something like this happened to him.

It's all about style nowadays.  He probably could have pulled off a win if he had gotten out there and convinced voters that he was innocent and in charge. 

Most of the people on this site exempted, that's how voters pick candidates today.  By their style.  Remember all the "which candidate would you prefer to go have a beer with?" questions.

He had a tough row to hoe, no question, but he could have put up a better "style" fight.

[XenaLee]

Who was the credibly accused 'child molester'?  Heck harvey Weinstein is the only one I've heard of recently in the press and he isnt a politician.

It's obvious to me that the politically motivated 'timing' of these accusations, just like the Herman Cain accusations, was a tactic/strategy by the left to defeat the GOP and win that seat.  It worked like a charm.  An evil charm.  And it will work again and again for them.  Unfortunately, there are just that many gullible, clueless and willing dupes out there that will fall for it.... enough to score another win for the left.

[DiogenesLamp]

Whoever runs against McConnel in the primary or the General will get my donations, Even if Hillary moves to Kentucky and runs for the seat.

After finding out that McConnell was behind the racist anti-McDaniel ads in Mississippi,   I urged anyone from Kentucky who would listen to vote for the Democrat instead of McConnell. 


My position is simple.   The only thing worse than an enemy is a traitor.   

[Cyber Liberty]

It's all about style nowadays.  He probably could have pulled off a win if he had gotten out there and convinced voters that he was innocent and in charge. 

Most of the people on this site exempted, that's how voters pick candidates today.  By their style.  Remember all the "which candidate would you prefer to go have a beer with?" questions.

He had a tough row to hoe, no question, but he could have put up a better "style" fight.

Reagan was accused of lying about funding the Contras, he came clean about it but it paralyzed the last two years of his Presidency.

[driftdiver]

It's obvious to me that the politically motivated 'timing' of these accusations, just like the Herman Cain accusations, was a tactic/strategy by the left to defeat the GOP and win that seat.  It worked like a charm.  An evil charm.  And it will work again and again for them.  Unfortunately, there are just that many gullible, clueless and willing dupes out there that will fall for it.... enough to score another win for the left.

The only point I'd disagree on is that it was limited to the left.   I think the GOP was in on it as well

[XenaLee]

In keeping with my constantly voiced contention that elections are binary,  "not voting"  still creates a binary result,  and in this case helped the guy who won.   

Doug Jones benefited massively from "conservatives"   who didn't conserve anything.

So you are blaming Conservatives for that loss?  Just because you are not a rabid leftie... that does not automatically equate to or make you a Conservative.  There are plenty of GOPers that are no where near being Conservative.

Alabama is a red state currently.  Not all of those non-leftist voters are Conservatives.   Get it right (pardon pun).

[DiogenesLamp]

Whether changing that would have made a difference in the election I don't know. The GOP turned out well, the Dems turnout was near unbelieveable.

I'm thinking there is a good chance it really is unbelievable,   and this is why I think a recount needs to be sought,  ala Franken in Minnesota.   

[Smokin Joe]

Oh pish posh.    The right of gays to marry was found in the 14th amendment, which as part of the federal Constitution overrides contrary provisions in state constitutions.   You'd be agreeing with me, of course, if the federal right at stake were the 2nd Amendment.   

What hypocrisy?  Do you even know the meaning of the term?   I early on urged the Alabama GOP to rescind its nomination, precisely because I wanted a conservative to win the seat.    Third trimester abortions?  Of course, I'm against.   Gun control?   I support the 2nd Amendment as construed by the Heller court.  And as for supporting the liberal agenda,  I had a fascinating interaction with a colleague this morning who's stone cold Dem partisan and knows I'm a Republican.   He said he was hoping against hope that Moore would win, because of the easy damage it would allow his party to inflict on Republicans leading up to the 2018 elections.   I told him that the GOP had dodged a bullet.

Fine. Quote me where in the 14th Amendment it says that homosexuals can marry. QUOTE IT.

You can't. It isn't there. You are trying to use a misapplication of the 14th to supersede the 10th. The Federal Government has NO (zero, nada, none) Constitutional Authority to regulate marriage, either as a civil matter or a sacrament. It is a usurpation of power.

The Heller Court? What "Heller Court"? Chief Justice Heller? Nonsense.

The second amendment says the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. They government has usurped that power too, to the tune of thousands of laws and regulations.

No you got the homo-loving gun control supporting baby slaughtering totalitarian guy you wanted. You have exposed yourself and your bullshit once again.

As for the GOP?   It was carrying in its waistband and has grievously wounded itself. It's a dead party walking--the bleeding out will take a while, but it is going to happen.