Should the world fear a North Korean EMP attack?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

No.

[driftdiver]

Then why is the government participating in "Earth EX" on August 23?.


http://www.eiscouncil.com/EarthEx

It sounds like they are worried.

@Freya

It's real but no hasn't quite shown the capability to do it, yet.  I've spent a lot of time in emp hardened military  facilities.  Banks are now quietly hardening their datacenters.  If it wasn't real they wouldn't do that

[bigheadfred]

@Freya

It's real but no hasn't quite shown the capability to do it, yet.  I've spent a lot of time in emp hardened military  facilities.  Banks are now quietly hardening their datacenters.  If it wasn't real they wouldn't do that

How do you harden against an emp attack? What materials do they use?

[driftdiver]

How do you harden against an emp attack? What materials do they use?

EMP is a pulse  or spike of energy.  It can burn out sensitive electrical components.  You can design electronics against it but that's expensive and difficult. The general approach is to use a layer of conductive material as a shield.  So doors have a metal gasket around the entry.  Rooms are basically covered with metal.  It can't be a mesh and surge protectors don't work.

EMP is only line of sight so geography also plays a role.  Mountains or even hills can shield what's behind them. 

[bigheadfred]

EMP is a pulse  or spike of energy.  It can burn out sensitive electrical components.  You can design electronics against it but that's expensive and difficult. The general approach is to use a layer of conductive material as a shield.  So doors have a metal gasket around the entry.  Rooms are basically covered with metal.  It can't be a mesh and surge protectors don't work.

EMP is only line of sight so geography also plays a role.  Mountains or even hills can shield what's behind them.

So, it has to work like a lightning rod? Isn't lightning an emp?

[driftdiver]

So, it has to work like a lightning rod? Isn't lightning an emp?

No they are different.  Lightning rods don't offer any protection against EMP.   Look up faraday cage.

Concrete offers some protection depending on how thick it is.   

The worst case scenario is a small nuke exploding about 200 km over Kansas.  Such an event has the potential to destroy every electronic device from coast to coast.  There are a ton of variables and it's more likely that some devices wouldn't be damaged.

However the power grid would go down.  All communications down.  Most vehicles stop working.   

[Gefn]

No they are different.  Lightning rods don't offer any protection against EMP.   Look up faraday cage.

Concrete offers some protection depending on how thick it is.   

The worst case scenario is a small nuke exploding about 200 km over Kansas.  Such an event has the potential to destroy every electronic device from coast to coast.  There are a ton of variables and it's more likely that some devices wouldn't be damaged.

However the power grid would go down.  All communications down.  Most vehicles stop working.

So would it help if I put my watch and radios in a Faraday Cage?

[driftdiver]

So would it help if I put my watch and radios in a Faraday Cage?

@Freya
Short answer is yes, but they are difficult to use while in there.  Also a radio may be useless afterwards because nobody else will be able to transmit.  The exception being if its a HAM radio, then there might be others.  A metal garbage can could also work as long as the top seals tight.   Be sure it add a non-conductive insulation between the can and the items inside such as cardboard.

IMO its better to stock up on food and other normal things.   Perhaps stick a couple items in a can just in case but extra food will help you more than a radio if there is ever a real EMP attack.  Read One Second After, its a fiction book based on EMP. 

[jpsb]

How do you harden against an emp attack? What materials do they use?

Faraday cage

[Free Vulcan]

No they are different.  Lightning rods don't offer any protection against EMP.   Look up faraday cage.

Concrete offers some protection depending on how thick it is.   

The worst case scenario is a small nuke exploding about 200 km over Kansas.  Such an event has the potential to destroy every electronic device from coast to coast.  There are a ton of variables and it's more likely that some devices wouldn't be damaged.

However the power grid would go down.  All communications down.  Most vehicles stop working.

The financial/market/economic impact of even detonating over the west coast and California specifically would be devastating.

You wouldn't have to shut down the whole country - just enough of it so that everything takes a dive. The resulting depression would incapacitate us.

[driftdiver]

The financial/market/economic impact of even detonating over the west coast and California specifically would be devastating.

You wouldn't have to shut down the whole country - just enough of it so that everything takes a dive. The resulting depression would incapacitate us.

Nothing about this is good.  Any major attack would have far reaching impact.  Whether thats a nuke hitting any city or an EMP.   A policy of appeasement has failed.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

How do you harden against an emp attack? What materials do they use?

In an EMP event, either something like the Carrington storm, either a faraday cage, or, taking the batteries out of any electronics, or unplugging them.

You really don't want a complete circuit (from positive to ground) in that event.

[EC]

The financial/market/economic impact of even detonating over the west coast and California specifically would be devastating.

You wouldn't have to shut down the whole country - just enough of it so that everything takes a dive. The resulting depression would incapacitate us.

Wouldn't worry over much about that.

Everything is duplicated - why you think both the City of London and the Milan financial districts are so big? They are the back-ups for the USA in the case of a serious problem. The markets would blip - not much more than that.

[Cyber Liberty]

It seems to me that the real point of NKs efforts to have nukes that can reach US territory is to give them enough time when they launch an invasion of South Korea for it to be fait accompli - fact on the ground - before the US intervenes. 

In other words, up until now, if NK forces crossed the DMZ, the US immediately starts massacring those forces with conventional weapons.  However, if NK has a few icbms with nukes that can reach US territory - even just Guam - the US will hesitate until it knows those missiles have been neutralized.  Thus, the US would spend the first part looking for the missile launching sites to take them out.  Only after the US has satisfied itself that the icbm threat is neutralized will the US be willing to start attacking NK's invasion force with conventional weapons. 

My guess is that the NK plan is for that to take sufficiently long that it will be firmly in control of Seoul and enough of SK that the US will simply have to accept the invasion as accomplished, because - I'm sure the NK also believes this - the US is not going to be willing to launch an open-ended campaign of attrition to extirpate NK invasion forces once they're dug in over a significant portion of the South. 

I think that's really what NK wants its nukes and icbms for.  They aren't first and foremost interested in actually attacking the US.

I imagine that's a good guess.  I wonder if the thousands of American GI lives that would be lost while looking for the launch sites would play into the decision process?

[the_doc]

I imagine that's a good guess.  I wonder if the thousands of American GI lives that would be lost while looking for the launch sites would play into the decision process?

I'll bet we already know where all of their launch sites are located and that we could respond in under five minutes if we got hit by a nuke.  Mattis says the Norks would be annihilated within 15 minutes.  (Remember, we would be able to see the ICBM coming from the time of its launch.)

[EC]

Were I Lil Kim, I know exactly where my first three warheads would go, and in what order.

First right in the middle of Seoul. Makes the DMZ a radioactive DMZ and removes 90% of the SK forces and the US forces.

Second slap bang in the middle of the US task force in the sea of Japan. One advantage of all these missile tests out to sea they've been doing is they've got it gridded to a fair-thee-well. Can probably hit within 100 feet of what they want with no terminal guidance by now.

Third on Seattle - maybe LA if I could be sure of hitting it.

[driftdiver]

Wouldn't worry over much about that.

Everything is duplicated - why you think both the City of London and the Milan financial districts are so big? They are the back-ups for the USA in the case of a serious problem. The markets would blip - not much more than that.

@EC
I love your optimism.   I've worked with some big banks and know things have improved but lets not forget that some decent sized companies ceased to exist because everything they had was in the towers on 9/11.

[driftdiver]

I'll bet we already know where all of their launch sites are located and that we could respond in under five minutes if we got hit by a nuke.  Mattis says the Norks would be annihilated within 15 minutes.  (Remember, we would be able to see the ICBM coming from the time of its launch.)

@the_doc
Some of these new missiles are launched from mobile launchers.

[the_doc]

@the_doc
Some of these new missiles are launched from mobile launchers.

Good point.  However, I'll bet we have continuous satellite surveillance over NK at this time.  (I doubt that it will be as difficult to locate or even track the launchers [post-launch] as it was decades ago when we were trying to find SCUDs in Iraq.)

[EC]

@EC
I love your optimism.   I've worked with some big banks and know things have improved but lets not forget that some decent sized companies ceased to exist because everything they had was in the towers on 9/11.

That's why everything is duplicated now ... 

Don't actually know if every big bank duplicates, but I know the majority - ones based around Canary Wharfe do (Son in law is a night shift maintenance chief for the full complex - they deal with incoming hardware as well as the actual building. The night traders like to gossip, too. As he says, "They're not bad, for suits.").

[IsailedawayfromFR]

You could not write a better propaganda headline for North Korea.

That is all Kim wants - the world shaking in its boots.

[Free Vulcan]

Wouldn't worry over much about that.

Everything is duplicated - why you think both the City of London and the Milan financial districts are so big? They are the back-ups for the USA in the case of a serious problem. The markets would blip - not much more than that.

I'm more worried about the psychological impact, especially the West Coast. And the loss of real economy of a hit that size.

[Wingnut]

I'm more worried about the psychological impact, especially the West Coast. And the loss of real economy of a hit that size.

Blow it up. Nuke it or Calexit it.  No one will miss that miserable state.

[HonestJohn]

Most likely the Russians are still there.  The NK will play with whatever bad actors they can find, I think.  The question still remains what do they really want the nukes for.

There are no Russian forces in North Korea.

[HonestJohn]

How do you harden against an emp attack? What materials do they use?

A Faraday cage.