Gallup: Americans’ views on most moral issues now more liberal to a record extent

[Wingnut]

Now, now, that's getting a mite personal. We can disagree, but we ain't supposed to call anyone names. 

I didn't call him no names.  I was talking about his underwear. :nometalk:

[Jazzhead]

Thats one of those comments thats best left on its own, and let everyone draw their own conclusions.

Yeah, I hear you, but in my defense each of you that quoted me omitted the key sentence -  that most religions seem to have a fundamental objection to sexual pleasure for its own sake.  That was the point - not that one ancient religion is seen to require the removal of clitorises while another is seen to require the removal of foreskins.    Genital mutilation has a long tradition in the Abrahamic religions, let's not forget.   

Of course female genital mutilation is an abhorrent practice.   How strongly do you want me to condemn it?    But let's understand what it is -  the result of religious dogma that seeks to deny sexual pleasure for its own sake.  Even within the bounds of marriage,  Catholic teaching won't let couples use contraceptives. Sex for pleasure?  Not without the risk of pregnancy.  And the Bible condemns masturbation, not that each and every last one of us ignores that command.   

It's all of a piece,  the difference between religions is certainly one of brutality but the result is the same -  sexual denial, sexual guilt and sexual hang-ups.   

[Silver Pines]

Yeah, I here you, but in my defense each of you that quoted me omitted the key sentence -  that most religions seem to have a fundamental objection to sexual pleasure for its own sake.

Of course female genital mutilation is an abhorrent practice.   How strongly do you want me to condemn it?    But let's understand what it is -  the result of religious dogma that seeks to deny sexual pleasure for its own sake.  Even within the bounds of marriage,  Catholic teaching won't let couples use contraceptives. Sex for pleasure?  Not without the risk of pregnancy.  And the Bible condemns masturbation, not that each and every last one of us ignores that command.   

It's all of a piece,  the difference between religions is certainly one of brutality but the result is the same -  sexual denial, sexual guilt and sexual hang-ups.

@Jazzhead

I check into this thread and the first thing I find is a post comparing the Catholic church's birth teaching on birth control and the Bible's  on masturbation with genital mutilation.

You're unbelievable, Jazz.  Go talk to a girl who's had her genitals sliced out, who can't control her urine flow, and as a result who lives on the street because the family who mutilated her turned her out.  Ask her if she thinks she has it any worse than a Catholic who uses the rhythm method.

What a garbage post.

[Wingnut]

@Jazzhead



What a garbage post.

Wait wait there is more to come from Jizzy...Wait till he goes off on circumcision equalling female genital mutilation.  The guy is a putz.

[Jazzhead]

@Jazzhead

I check into this thread and the first thing I find is a post comparing the Catholic church's birth teaching on birth control and the Bible's  on masturbation with genital mutilation.

You're unbelievable, Jazz.  Go talk to a girl who's had her genitals sliced out, who can't control her urine flow, and as a result who lives on the street because the family who mutilated her turned her out.  Ask her if she thinks she has it any worse than a Catholic who uses the rhythm method.

What a garbage post.

You, too, miss my point.   Because nuance escapes this crowd, let me be as clear as I can.  Female genital mutilation is horrible,  a practice that must be condemned by the community and the government.   It is a denial of a woman's fundamental and natural right to self-determination and self actualization- and all in the name of religion!

But sexual repression is a goal of many religions.   Why should a Catholic couple be denied the liberty of practicing birth control and enjoying stress-free sex for pure pleasure?   

[INVAR]

@Jazzhead

I check into this thread and the first thing I find is a post comparing the Catholic church's birth teaching on birth control and the Bible's  on masturbation with genital mutilation.

You're unbelievable, Jazz.  Go talk to a girl who's had her genitals sliced out, who can't control her urine flow, and as a result who lives on the street because the family who mutilated her turned her out.  Ask her if she thinks she has it any worse than a Catholic who uses the rhythm method.

What a garbage post.

You are dealing with a demonic mindset there.  That is all you got to know.

[Jazzhead]

I cannot believe what I just read.  Condemning somebody for masturbation is as bad as genital mutilation?  I sincerely hope I read that incorrectly.

I think I did.

You did.   

[Jazzhead]

You are dealing with a demonic mindset there.  That is all you got to know.

You don't know what love is, do ya?   

[Silver Pines]

Wait wait there is more to come from Jizzy...Wait till he goes off on circumcision equalling female genital mutilation.  The guy is a putz.

 

[jmyrlefuller]

And the Bible condemns masturbation, not that each and every last one of us ignores that command.   

No, it doesn't. Not once is it even mentioned.

The only verse any person who claims that canard is true ever cites has nothing to do with masturbation—it was a very specific situation in which God commanded a man to lay with a woman, and he refused.

Now, one can make the implication that certain forms of masturbation, lusts in one's own mind as it's stated in Matthew, may not be holy, but as a whole the practice is not verboten.

[Silver Pines]

You, too, miss my point.   Because nuance escapes this crowd, let me be as clear as I can.  Female genital mutilation is horrible,  a practice that must be condemned by the community and the government.   It is a denial of a woman's fundamental and natural right to self-determination and self actualization- and all in the name of religion!

But sexual repression is a goal of many religions.   Why should a Catholic couple be denied the liberty of practicing birth control and enjoying stress-free sex for pure pleasure?

@Jazzhead

Yeah, I know, we're all a bunch of troglodytes who never heard of nuance until you came to enlighten us. 

I get your point, and you're doing it again---throwing Catholics and Muslim savages into the same pot.  Period. And don't bother virtue signaling about my use of the word savage, because if they practice genital mutilation, that is exactly what they are.

If you don't like Catholic teaching, don't be a Catholic.  It's that simple.  They're not forcing their members to do anything, so why should it bother you?

[Silver Pines]

   Why should a Catholic couple be denied the liberty of practicing birth control and enjoying stress-free sex for pure pleasure?

Also, one of my best friends is Catholic.  She and I talk, and trust me, her relationship with her husband isn't limited to procreation-only sex.  Far from it. 

Either you're trying to portray Catholics as victims of a big bad mean church, or you need to open your mind a little and look past your prejudices.

@Jazzhead

[jmyrlefuller]

Yeah, I hear you, but in my defense each of you that quoted me omitted the key sentence -  that most religions seem to have a fundamental objection to sexual pleasure for its own sake.  (...) let's understand what it is -  the result of religious dogma that seeks to deny sexual pleasure for its own sake.  Even within the bounds of marriage,  Catholic teaching won't let couples use contraceptives. Sex for pleasure?  Not without the risk of pregnancy.  And the Bible condemns masturbation, not that each and every last one of us ignores that command.   

It's all of a piece,  the difference between religions is certainly one of brutality but the result is the same -  sexual denial, sexual guilt and sexual hang-ups.

Well, yeah, because that's what sex is for, reproduction. Since the middle of the 20th century, modern society seems to have come up with this notion that if somehow we can decouple sex from its biological purpose we can create this awesome, pleasurable drug.

So they invented birth control. With the risk of pregnancy eliminated, there was no need to commit to have sex. The societal norm changed, and all of a sudden it was OK to jump from partner to partner. Then people who did have kids started jumping too. Divorce went through the roof and families were broken, everywhere. The discos were overflowing with hedonistic and disgusting acts of all kinds... then came the AIDS epidemic, and for a brief time we all remembered why this kind of stuff was so dangerous.

Now, a generation and a half later, these lessons haven't just been forgotten, they've been rejected.

Whether you believe in God or not, there was good reason why the writers of the Bible treated sex as something that is not to be taken lightly as some pleasure cruise. It has real consequences.

[bigheadfred]

If you set out to deceive the whole world, how would you do it?

[skeeter]

Yeah, I hear you, but in my defense each of you that quoted me omitted the key sentence -  that most religions seem to have a fundamental objection to sexual pleasure for its own sake.  That was the point - not that one ancient religion is seen to require the removal of clitorises while another is seen to require the removal of foreskins.    Genital mutilation has a long tradition in the Abrahamic religions, let's not forget.   

I don't believe Muslims object to sex for its own sake. In fact, it seems Islam encourages their faithful have sex with infidels whether those infidels like it or not.

I guess that makes them better than catholics.

[INVAR]

You don't know what love is, do ya?

I know what spirit you speak from. 

You have confused love with license.

This world loves its own, and the world loves you because you are of the world.

[Smokin Joe]

Wait wait there is more to come from Jizzy...Wait till he goes off on circumcision equalling female genital mutilation.  The guy is a putz.

I dunno. Circumcision is brutal. They did it to me and I couldn't walk for a year! 

[Suppressed]

The hater twist is a reference to what folks like you and Jazz call anyone who doesn't toe the line.

If they do that, they aren't like I am.

[geronl]

Yeah, I hear you, but in my defense each of you that quoted me omitted the key sentence -  that most religions seem to have a fundamental objection to sexual pleasure for its own sake.

Christians think it's awesome in a truly Godly marriage

[Sighlass]

Christians think it's awesome in a truly Godly marriage

Yep, if two married young in love folks agree and want to swing from vines in the bedroom with mirrors everywhere, God has no problem with it. God made sex, and within the confines of marriage God is quite generous. I don't know why people get the idea that Christians are prudish when it comes to sex. I have seen past polls that actually show Christian married people rating their sexual experiences above others.

[Silver Pines]

Yep, if two married young in love folks agree and want to swing from vines in the bedroom with mirrors everywhere, God has no problem with it. God made sex, and within the confines of marriage God is quite generous. I don't know why people get the idea that Christians are prudish when it comes to sex. I have seen past polls that actually show Christian married people rating their sexual experiences above others.

@Sighlass

I don't know if they genuinely have that idea, but I do know that it's convenient for them to promote it.

[Jazzhead]

@Jazzhead

Yeah, I know, we're all a bunch of troglodytes who never heard of nuance until you came to enlighten us. 

I get your point, and you're doing it again---throwing Catholics and Muslim savages into the same pot.  Period. And don't bother virtue signaling about my use of the word savage, because if they practice genital mutilation, that is exactly what they are.

If you don't like Catholic teaching, don't be a Catholic.  It's that simple.  They're not forcing their members to do anything, so why should it bother you?

First of all, I'll admit the obvious - I'm trying to be provocative here,  so I expect the pushback.   But it's depressing that the reaction is always so personal.   Why is the subject of sexual repression by religion taboo?   

I was initially responding to the sky-is-falling reaction to the morality poll that is the topic thread.   I wasn't bothered,  because the real moral wrong - having an extramarital affair and the vow-breaking that entails -  remains universally condemned.  So why is the sky falling?   Because religious strictures against consensual and victimless sexual activity have been loosening.   

Why is that such a threat?   Sexual responsibility should be the issue,  not arbitrary self-denial of sexual pleasure in the name of religion.   In today's world,  female genital mutilation is the most abhorrent practice - certainly it is the most brutal and permanent - but it's a symptom of a larger disease, if you will.   Most religions teach repression of sexual pleasure for its own sake.

 NO - female genital mutilation is NOT equivalent to the Catholic prohibition against the use of contraceptives.   It is far worse.   But each is symptomatic of a mindset that sex for pleasure and not procreation is to be discouraged, even within the bounds of a faithful and consensual relationship.   I simply disagree with that.  Fidelity and responsibility should be the issues, not arbitrary self-denial.

Please don't project that because I question the Catholic prohibition against the use of contraceptives, that I "dislike" Catholic teachings.  I actually respond to the Catholic faith and message far more than I do the evangelicals.   My sister converted to Catholicism,  and I think she did the right thing.

[Wingnut]

I dunno. Circumcision is brutal. They did it to me and I couldn't walk for a year! 

@Smokin Joe  You just used that as a crutch.

[Gefn]

Yep, if two married young in love folks agree and want to swing from vines in the bedroom with mirrors everywhere, God has no problem with it. God made sex, and within the confines of marriage God is quite generous. I don't know why people get the idea that Christians are prudish when it comes to sex. I have seen past polls that actually show Christian married people rating their sexual experiences above others.

Isn't the Song of Solomon in the Bible?  That might be considered "racy"by some people. I know I kinda learned about the birds and the bees from it.

[bigheadfred]

Islam probably sets the bar for overall violence. But Christianity and Judaism have had their day in the sun. As far as misguided and misbegotten BS, they are all on par.