Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today

[Cyber Liberty]

But it's still the woman's right to decide what to do with her body.  Persuade her, give her a helping hand, so she can do the right thing. 

I'm amazed at all the "conservative" men on this forum that mock and disparage the burdens faced by women,  burdens they will never have to bear themselves.

And yet, here you are, among all these troglodytes who have victimized you so terribly.  Quite charitable of you, rather.

[Jazzhead]

@Jazzhead

If the life or death of the child is to be decided by the woman alone, then the same must be true when it comes to raising the child. 

No input allowed from the man on whether his baby survives?  Then he must be free from financial obligation, as well.

Nope.   Only the woman can decide.  If she decides to abort, then hooray, the man is relieved from financial obligation.  If the woman decides to bear the child and raise it, then the man should be obliged to help support the child until it's an adult.   Or he can keep his pants zipped.   

[TomSea]

Also, per Ted Cruz or whomever, some go by the "Constructionist", "Originalist" constitution view; what did those who made the Constitution mean?

Then, you can go to what Jefferson, John Adams, etc. said.

To define "personal liberty" in some way, may not be what the Founding Fathers had in mind. In fact, chances are they didn't have that in mind, they wrestled with abortion and other hot issues back in the day as well.

[r9etb]

But it's still the woman's right to decide what to do with her body.  Persuade her, give her a helping hand, so she can do the right thing. 

I'm amazed at all the "conservative" men on this forum that mock and disparage the burdens faced by women,  burdens they will never have to bear themselves.

I don't mock their burdens.  In fact, you congratulated me for not doing so.  So that dog won't hunt.

The problem is that you're only willing to acknowledge one body in this discussion, and it's not the little body whose pieces the abortionist reassembles on a tray after pulling them out of the womb. 

What about that little body: are you saying its life doesn't count?  Well, no ... you say it's "wrong" to have killed it.  But you don't actually say why.  Because ... why?

[TomSea]

Nope.   Only the woman can decide.  If she decides to abort, then hooray, the man is relieved from financial obligation.  If the woman decides to bear the child and raise it, then the man should be obliged to help support the child until it's an adult.   Or he can keep his pants zipped.

But your definition of personal liberty is not necessarily one that the Founding Fathers foresaw. That is just your view.

[txradioguy]

Nope.   Only the woman can decide.  If she decides to abort, then hooray, the man is relieved from financial obligation.  If the woman decides to bear the child and raise it, then the man should be obliged to help support the child until it's an adult.   Or he can keep his pants zipped.

What about the woman keeping her legs closed?

Again you have consistently in this entire discussion absolved the woman in any scenario from any responsibility for getting pregnant.

Like in your wrongheaded view of gay marriage...I feel you are way too close to this situation to be able to discuss it objectively.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

But it's still the woman's right to decide what to do with her body.  Persuade her, give her a helping hand, so she can do the right thing. 

I'm amazed at all the "conservative" men on this forum that mock and disparage the burdens faced by women,  burdens they will never have to bear themselves.

I guess I'll just go run some people over. After all it's my car and it's my right to do with it what I want.

[sneakypete]

As a Conservative and Libertarian, I'm glad tax payer monies are not going to be used to fund planned parenthood international.

@TomSea

 

Planned Parenthood is a private organization,not a branch of the government. Any money it brings in should come from donors using their own money.

[Jazzhead]

What about that little body: are you saying its life doesn't count? 

I've said loud and clear that it counts.  If you knock up your partner,  support her to do the right thing.

[Norm Lenhart]

Nope.   Only the woman can decide.  If she decides to abort, then hooray, the man is relieved from financial obligation.  If the woman decides to bear the child and raise it, then the man should be obliged to help support the child until it's an adult.   Or he can keep his pants zipped.

How very odd!

Several pages back you mocked me for saying a woman can 'choose' to remain celibate, yet here you are making the argument that a man should.

Now why is that? It's a legit question you should answer.

[geronl]

Only the woman can decide.

Trump made all his mistresses promise to get abortions if they got pregnant as a condition. Parents and men (and their abusers too often) often pressure the pregnant girl to get abortion. Criminal Enterprise Planned Parenthood has been proven to not report to the authorities when one of their underage "customers" tells them she was impregnated by an adult (which is the law in at least this state). We have a culture that celebrates and revere baby murder, putting even more pressure on girls. We have states that outlaw any effort to offer alternatives to abortion.

It's wrong all around. Often enough it makes them feel they have no choice in the matter. Which is what the pro-abortion side want, of course.

[Hoodat]

But it's still the woman's right to decide what to do with her body.

And the choice she made resulted in the creation of a new unique individual human life that is not her property.

I'm amazed at all the "conservative" men on this forum that mock and disparage the burdens faced by women,  burdens they will never have to bear themselves.

I am amazed that in the age of empowerment, you portray women as helpless victims.  I am equally amazed how you can champion a system that affords men a way to opt out of that burden by pressuring a woman into having an abortion.

[geronl]

Several pages back you mocked me for saying a woman can 'choose' to remain celibate, yet here you are making the argument that a man should.

Now why is that? It's a legit question you should answer.

I guess it's because women can't help themselves. lol

[Idaho_Cowboy]

I've said loud and clear that it counts.  If you knock up your partner,  support her to do the right thing.

Unless she wants to kill it in which case kiss your kid goodbye.

[TomSea]

Did someone talk about Religious Zealots? Perhaps they are discussing a Secular view but that is not found in the Constitution either.

George Washington

1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."

John Adams

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

And yes, some of these FFs, Founding Fathers said some things against organized religion, however to create one's own understanding of "personal liberty" should not be accepted at face value; just the same as if I say the Judeo-Christian view should be accepted. However, I think this point can be argued favorably. The majority were religious men.

We are sort of re-inventing the wheel going back to the FFs but if it must be said.

[Jazzhead]

What about the woman keeping her legs closed?

Again you have consistently in this entire discussion absolved the woman in any scenario from any responsibility for getting pregnant.

Like in your wrongheaded view of gay marriage...I feel you are way too close to this situation to be able to discuss it objectively.

I'd say you're way too close.  Did you have an unpleasant experience with a woman leaving you and taking you to the cleaners? 

Me?   I've stuck by my spouse and kids.   Have you?   

[sneakypete]

What about pro-Constitutioners who obsess over the 'legal' atrocity of tyrannical courts that impose their morality on the rest of us through fiat with zero regard for the Constitution of the United States of America.  Are they doing a disservice as well?

@Hoodat


I join with you on this one. No religious organization has the right or the authority to demand we pass un-Constitutional laws to please them.

 

[Jazzhead]

Unless she wants to kill it in which case kiss your kid goodbye.

That scenario is very rare.  More typically, the man pressures the woman to abort.   

[TomSea]

John Adams seemed to say without a strong moral guidance; the Constitution is worthless.  Maybe he even mentioned Christianity by name and without it, the Constitution might even be dangerous.

Hence, that goes with homespun understandings of what "personal liberty" is.

[sneakypete]

@txradioguy

What about the woman keeping her legs closed?

What about it? Does the woman opening her legs absolve the man of any personal responsibility for his actions?

 

[Norm Lenhart]

That scenario is very rare.  More typically, the man pressures the woman to abort.   

Got hard numbers to back that up? No? So you just repeat the leftist talking point.

[r9etb]

I've said loud and clear that it counts.  If you knock up your partner,  support her to do the right thing.

Well, that's a non sequitur. 

OK, so you've said "loud and clear" that the dismembered little body "counts." But at the same time you DEMAND that it remain legally OK to have killed her.

Which really means that the little body didn't count after all.

[INVAR]

First I'm accused of liberalism, next of baby-killing, and now of thinking like a genocidal madman.   All because I advocate for persuasion rather than state coercion at the behest of religious zealots.

Wrong.

You are advocating for infanticide, for murder, for an industry to terminate a baby because it is not 'convenient' and because people want to have sex without consequences or responsibility.  You are articulating justifications both legal and moral about WHY killing an infant is a moral and legal choice that no one but a pregnant woman is permitted to make.  You are insisting that a baby in the womb is not 'viable', and that all women have a legal "Constitutional Right" to kill/terminate/abort the infant in the womb at their choosing, because in your estimation this is of paramount importance for liberty in society to exist.

And this whole sordid SICK discussion has come out of the news that Trump has reversed the policy that exports our tax dollars so abortions can be done in our name in other countries around the world.

And YES - your thinking and all the articulated arguments you have presented are exactly the kinds of justifications that genocidal madmen provide for their pograms to deal with their unwanted, unviable masses of human flesh that are not convenient.

[sneakypete]

How very odd!

Several pages back you mocked me for saying a woman can 'choose' to remain celibate, yet here you are making the argument that a man should.

@Norm Lenhart

You obviously have me confused with someone else. I have never in my life stated that women can't choose to remain celibate. Or men,as far as that goes.

[Norm Lenhart]

I guess it's because women can't help themselves. lol

This guy has backed himself so far into a corner on this thread, he's now soaked through the paint and showing through as a stain.