Army Picks Sig Sauer's P320 Handgun to Replace M9 Service Pistol

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete

 

I thought some of the testing was also in Hatcher's Notebook, but alas, my copy is loaned out.

@Elderberry

HATCHER'S NOTEBOOK! THAT is the book I was thinking of,and couldn't remember the name. Fascinating reading for anal loons like reloaders and gunsmiths,but a real snoozer for most people. I think I read mine from cover to cover at least twice.

Speaking of anal,is there anybody on the planet more anal than bench rest shouters? Competitive skeet and trap shooters come close,but I don't think the bench rest boys are in any danger of losing their crowns.

[sneakypete]

Old Western Scrounger sells 30-40Krag ammo.

30 Army (30-40 Krag) 220GR SP
.30 Army (.30-40 Krag) Model 1898. 220GR Correct headstamp. Box of 20. NO ETA
   $39.95

http://www.ows-ammo.com/store/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&zenid=c2d8cc3f7ca42a4e38930a353ff94be1&keyword=30-40

@sneakypete

@Elderberry

YIKES! That has to be modern reproduction stuff. I'm more than a little shocked it is that cheap. LOTS of people used to think the 30/40 Krag and the 300 Savage were the perfect deer calibers. I still know people who deer hunt with a Model 99 Savage chambered in 300 Savage.

[Smokin Joe]

@sneakypete

I found the report of the 1907 Pistol Trials. Like you said, pretty boring if you're not a gun nut. http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/1907pistoltrials.pdf

Also the NRA Museum had an interesting pdf on it as well.  http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940450/1907%20pistol%20trials.pdf

I thought some of the testing was also in Hatcher's Notebook, but alas, my copy is loaned out.

Thanks for the links! --and the head's up on Hatcher's Notebook!

[Elderberry]

@Elderberry

HATCHER'S NOTEBOOK! THAT is the book I was thinking of,and couldn't remember the name. Fascinating reading for anal loons like reloaders and gunsmiths,but a real snoozer for most people. I think I read mine from cover to cover at least twice.

Speaking of anal,is there anybody on the planet more anal than bench rest shouters? Competitive skeet and trap shooters come close,but I don't think the bench rest boys are in any danger of losing their crowns.

I've never competed, but I got the bug, chasing tight groups once many years ago. I friend from the old neighborhood came by one day and gave me a 95 Chilean Mauser. He didn't want it cause it didn't have a 29" bbl. I did my first rebarrel job on it. I put a Madsen MG barrel on it and kept it 7mm Mauser. I drilled & tapped it for a scope and turned down the bolt handle. First time for me for all of this. I mounted only a 4 power scope on it. And I chased, and chased and chased the groups down until I could shoot tight clover leafs, almost ragged 1 holers with it. To this day, those were the tightest groups I have ever shot.

@sneakypete

[sneakypete]

I've never competed, but I got the bug, chasing tight groups once many years ago. I friend from the old neighborhood came by one day and gave me a 95 Chilean Mauser. He didn't want it cause it didn't have a 29" bbl. I did my first rebarrel job on it. I put a Madsen MG barrel on it and kept it 7mm Mauser. I drilled & tapped it for a scope and turned down the bolt handle. First time for me for all of this. I mounted only a 4 power scope on it. And I chased, and chased and chased the groups down until I could shoot tight clover leafs, almost ragged 1 holers with it. To this day, those were the tightest groups I have ever shot.

@sneakypete

@Elderberry

No surprise there. Think about it for a minute. Many years ago your eyes were sharper,your breathing was steadier,and your muscles could be counted on to do what you wanted them to do. Plus you didn't have to look for a urinal every 30 minutes,so you weren't so stressed.
 
Not that *I* have to worry about such things,mind you.

[Elderberry]

The contract will contain a price “ceiling,” the Army said, the kind of cost control businessman Donald Trump has embraced as he stings the defense industry over cost overruns. Sig Sauer will provide the guns, accessories and ammo for no more than $580 million.

Next the Army will begin operational test-shooting aimed at sending the weapon to soldiers later this year.

At Mr. Mattis‘ confirmation hearing a week earlier, Ms. Ernst used much of her allotted time to condemn what she believes is the poor state of the armed forces’ small arms.
Her target was not just the 30-year-old Beretta. The Army’s M4 carbine, its mainstay rifle, is often criticized by front-line combatants as prone to jamming and as lacking firepower.
“The Army can’t even figure out how to replace the M9 pistol, first issued in 1982,” the senator told Mr. Mattis. “Take a look at their 350-page micromanaging requirements document if you want to know why it’s taking so long to get this accomplished. Our military’s current service rifle that, as you noted, is illegal for shooting small deer in nearly all states due to its lack of killing power. Do you agree that we cannot grow a more lethal force while using outdated small arms and ammunition?”

In the fall of 2015, Mr. McCain became so frustrated by the long march to find what should be a simple procurement he issued a special report, “America’s Most Wasted: Army’s Costly Misfire.”
He said the Army had spent 10 years preparing a competition for a $500 gun.

“The Army has managed to create entirely new acquisition problems for what should be a simple, straightforward purchase of a commercially available item,” Mr. McCain said.
“The Army’s effort to buy a new handgun has already taken 10 years and produced nothing but more than 350 page[s of] requirements micromanaging extremely small unimportant details and Byzantine rules and processes the Army wants followed, many of which are unnecessary or anticompetitive,” he said.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/22/army-picks-sig-sauer-for-new-handgun-before-john-m/

[thackney]

Our military’s current service rifle that, as you noted, is illegal for shooting small deer in nearly all states due to its lack of killing power. Do you agree that we cannot grow a more lethal force while using outdated small arms and ammunition?”

I thought that was intentional with the idea a wounded soldier removes the one hit as well as those helping him from immediate combat.

[EC]

I thought that was intentional with the idea a wounded soldier removes the one hit as well as those helping him from immediate combat.

Depreciated doctrine. Works fine if your oppo is sane - but the scum don't care for their wounded until and unless they win.

[Smokin Joe]

I thought that was intentional with the idea a wounded soldier removes the one hit as well as those helping him from immediate combat.

That only works if your opponent will drag off their dead and wounded. If they consider dying for their particular cause to be the will of their deity, they might not care so much. I have little doubt even the VC wanted to get home after the show, but the current enemy is lusting for those virgins...

[thackney]

That only works if your opponent will drag off their dead and wounded. If they consider dying for their particular cause to be the will of their deity, they might not care so much. I have little doubt even the VC wanted to get home after the show, but the current enemy is lusting for those virgins...

I would think listening to you fellow soldiers scream in pain while you tried to ignore them to at least be a little distracting, perhaps even give pause to moving past your current cover.

[sneakypete]

That only works if your opponent will drag off their dead and wounded. If they consider dying for their particular cause to be the will of their deity, they might not care so much. I have little doubt even the VC wanted to get home after the show, but the current enemy is lusting for those virgins...

@Smokin Joe

A good hit is a good hit,and I have never seen or heard of a good hit not killing the enemy.

Having said that,I never personally gave a damn if they were dead or not. All I really cared about was "are they any longer a danger to me or my teammates?"
If they weren't,I then preferred them alive and screaming their hearts out in pain. That type of thing tends to make the living and mobile enemy lose a lot of their enthusiasm about charging you again.

[sneakypete]

I would think listening to you fellow soldiers scream in pain while you tried to ignore them to at least be a little distracting, perhaps even give pause to moving past your current cover.

@thackney

BINGO!

[Bigun]

I was in the military when they took our M-14 and gave us a plastic gun. 

The plastic gun is better for spray and pray operations.  For anything other than that I prefer the M-14 hands down!

[jpsb]

@Scutter

As for me,I choose to rely on my experience of 6 years as a Special Forces weapons man in 3 different combat zones,and then being a professional school-trained gunsmith that worked in 2 gun shops before opening my own,so what the hell do I know about this subject,either?

I spent a few years in the USMC so I am trained on a 911 but that was 40+ years ago. These days I like a double action revolver. I only get 6 shots but I know every time I squeeze the trigger something is going to happen. lol, I do have a semi-auto Glock in the gun safe but I have never fired it.

Never heard anything bad about a well maintained 911.  All guns will eventually ware out, judging a weapon on a worn out one is dishonest and foolish.

I am still pissed at gov for destroying most of its' inventory of M-14. I wanted one! Happily the Marines kept their M-14. The Marines know a good weapon when they see one.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Excuse me, but what in the H##l's wrong with a .45 ACP 1911?

Shouldn't go messing with perfection.

It's "perfection" for a limited number of shooters, mostly older ones who grew up with it and have some sort of attachment to it.  For many others -- including a lot of older people who also grew up with it -- it has bad ergonomics and is difficult to shoot well.  And for everyone, it carries a limited amount of ammo.

I was issued the 1911 myself, and didn't like it.  When we went to the Beretta 92, shooting scores went up across the board.  There are some great modern pistols that include things like swappable backstraps that make the weapon far more ergonomical to a wider range of shooters, etc....  The vast majority of people will shoot much better with such a weapon than they will with a 1911.

Again, that's not to say that the 1911 isn't a great gun for some people.  It is.  But it's a limited number, and takes a lot more range time to become proficient with one.

[EC]

I spent a few years in the USMC so I am trained on a 911 but that was 40+ years ago. These days I like a double action revolver. I only get 6 shots but I know every time I squeeze the trigger something is going to happen. lol, I do have a semi-auto Glock in the gun safe but I have never fired it.

Frowning at you right now.

You know the drill, get yer ass to the range and put enough through it to get the feel, at least. Shouldn't have a gun you have never fired. What if it's the closest when you need one?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

The contract will contain a price “ceiling,” the Army said, the kind of cost control businessman Donald Trump has embraced as he stings the defense industry over cost overruns. Sig Sauer will provide the guns, accessories and ammo for no more than $580 million.

Next the Army will begin operational test-shooting aimed at sending the weapon to soldiers later this year.

At Mr. Mattis‘ confirmation hearing a week earlier, Ms. Ernst used much of her allotted time to condemn what she believes is the poor state of the armed forces’ small arms.
Her target was not just the 30-year-old Beretta. The Army’s M4 carbine, its mainstay rifle, is often criticized by front-line combatants as prone to jamming and as lacking firepower.
“The Army can’t even figure out how to replace the M9 pistol, first issued in 1982,” the senator told Mr. Mattis. “Take a look at their 350-page micromanaging requirements document if you want to know why it’s taking so long to get this accomplished. Our military’s current service rifle that, as you noted, is illegal for shooting small deer in nearly all states due to its lack of killing power. Do you agree that we cannot grow a more lethal force while using outdated small arms and ammunition?”

In the fall of 2015, Mr. McCain became so frustrated by the long march to find what should be a simple procurement he issued a special report, “America’s Most Wasted: Army’s Costly Misfire.”
He said the Army had spent 10 years preparing a competition for a $500 gun.

“The Army has managed to create entirely new acquisition problems for what should be a simple, straightforward purchase of a commercially available item,” Mr. McCain said.
“The Army’s effort to buy a new handgun has already taken 10 years and produced nothing but more than 350 page[s of] requirements micromanaging extremely small unimportant details and Byzantine rules and processes the Army wants followed, many of which are unnecessary or anticompetitive,” he said.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/22/army-picks-sig-sauer-for-new-handgun-before-john-m/

I agree with a lot of that, but saying that the current service rifle is "illegal for shooting small deer (is it legal for large deer??) in nearly all states due to its lack of killing power is just a made-up fact, likely by some staffer mad that he can't hunt deer with his AR-15.  It is legal to hunt deer with a .223 in many states, and many of the states that don't permit it have a general ban on rifles in general, limiting deer hunting to shotguns for safety reasons.

I'd like to know the specific states that banned the use of the .223 in particular for deer hunting because it is too small a caliber.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Frowning at you right now.

You know the drill, get yer ass to the range and put enough through it to get the feel, at least. Shouldn't have a gun you have never fired. What if it's the closest when you need one?

Or just sell it.  If you have a gun that you don't like/don't shoot, why keep it at all?  I'm not a huge fan of Glocks myself, but they're fine guns and lots of people would take it off his hands for a reasonable price.

[Lando Lincoln]

I agree with a lot of that, but saying that the current service rifle is "illegal for shooting small deer (is it legal for large deer??) in nearly all states due to its lack of killing power is just a made-up fact, likely by some staffer mad that he can't hunt deer with his AR-15.  It is legal to hunt deer with a .223 in many states, and many of the states that don't permit it have a general ban on rifles in general, limiting deer hunting to shotguns for safety reasons.

I'd like to know the specific states that banned the use of the .223 in particular for deer hunting because it is too small a caliber.

I have this from several years ago.  I cannot vouch for it's accuracy nor can I cite a source.  Kinda worthless, I guess.
Alabama- centerfire
Alaska- centerfire
Alberta- .23 and up centerfire
Arizona- centerfire
Arkansas- .22 and up centerfire
California- centerfire
Colorado- .24 and up, 70grn or larger bullet/ minimum of 1000ft/lbs at 100 yards
Connecticut- .243 and up if legal in your area
Delaware- shotgun/muzzle loader
Florida- centerfire
Georgia- .22 and up centerfire
Hawaii- Any rifle with at least 1200 ft/lbs of ME. This would start at around .223 I think
Idaho- Centerfire (cannot weigh more than 16 lbs?)
Illinois- Shotgun/ML/Pistol onlyIndiana- Rifles with pistol calibers/shotgun/ML/Pistols
Iowa- .24 or larger centerfire only for antlerless season in part of the state.
Kansas- .23 or larger centerfire (actually says larger than .23 so maybe .24 is the mininum)
Kentucky- centerfire
Louisiana- .22 and up centerfire
Maine- .22 magnum rimfire and up!
Manitoba- Centerfire, but it says .23 and below not recommended. Does not say illegal though.
Maryland- ME of at least 1200 ft/lbs
Mass- Shotgun/ML
Michigan- centerfire in certain areas
Minnesota- .24 and up centerfire
Mississippi- No restrictions that I could find
Missouri- centerfire
Montana- No restrictions
Nebraska- Rifles with 900 ft/lbs or more at 100 yards
Nevada- .22 centerfire and up
New Hampshire- centerfire
New Jersey- shotgun only
New Mexico- centerfire
New York- centerfire
North Carolina- No restrictions
North Dakota- .22-.49 centerfire
Nova Scotia- .23 and up
Ohio- Shotgun/ML
Oklahoma- centerfire with 55 grn or heavier bullet
Ontario- centerfire
Oregon- .22 centerfire and upPennsylvania- centerfire
Quebec- 6mm/.243 and up
Rhode Island- shotgun/ML*
Saskatchewan- .24 and up
South Carolina- centerfire
South Dakota- rifles with 1,000 ft/lbs or more ME
Tennessee- centerfire
Texas- centerfire
Utah- centerfire
Vermont- No restriction
Virginia- .23 centerfire and up
Washington- .24 centerfire and up
West Virginia- .25 rimfire and up and all centerfire
Wisconsin- .22 centerfire and up
Wyoming- .23 centerfire and up

[jpsb]

Frowning at you right now.

You know the drill, get yer ass to the range and put enough through it to get the feel, at least. Shouldn't have a gun you have never fired. What if it's the closest when you need one?

LOL, I can't argue with you cause when you are right you are right.

I've got few in the safe that I need to get a little practice on. I used to go to the range every 3 or 4 months back in the day. Now not so much. However with the gun grabbers out of power it might be safe to by ammo and go to the range again.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

I agree with a lot of that, but saying that the current service rifle is "illegal for shooting small deer (is it legal for large deer??) in nearly all states due to its lack of killing power is just a made-up fact, likely by some staffer mad that he can't hunt deer with his AR-15.  It is legal to hunt deer with a .223 in many states, and many of the states that don't permit it have a general ban on rifles in general, limiting deer hunting to shotguns for safety reasons.

I'd like to know the specific states that banned the use of the .223 in particular for deer hunting because it is too small a caliber.

You can use it in Idaho, but most consider it too small for deer. Works on varmints of a variety of sizes though quite well.

[Bigun]

You can use it in Idaho, but most consider it too small for deer. Works on varmints of a variety of sizes though quite well.

A properly placed projectile from a .223 will kill any deer on the planet. The problem is that far too many hunters can't place it properly with any regularity.  The restrictions are a feeble sop at being humane toward the animals because hunters aren't any better with larger calibers than they are with the .223.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

A properly placed projectile from a .223 will kill any deer on the planet. The problem is that far too many hunters can't place it properly with any regularity.  The restrictions are a feeble sop at being humane toward the animals because hunters aren't any better with larger calibers than they are with the .223.

I have heard old old stories from old old timers who brought down deer with a .22 on a regular basis, where you hit is a huge part of whether you bring the critter down and how far you have to hike after it when you do.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

@Scutter

I don't know who told you that,but he sure as  hell wasn't a friend. Friends don't lie to friends about survival tools,and that has to be one the biggest lies ever told.

1911A1's weren't issued to cops as duty weapons and were pulled from the military because the civilian asswipes in procurement who never heard a shot getting fired in anger or fear had appropriation money to spend,kickbacks to pocket,and wanted new toys. They used the excuse of "loaded guns with cocked hammers are dangerous and the cretins we hire to fight for us or protect us are too stupid to operate them safely!"

I guess you aren't aware that the shooters in Delta Force all carry one version or another of the 1911A1?

But hey,what they hell do professional soldiers who are literally authorized to carry any kind of handgun they want know about handguns,right?

As for me,I choose to rely on my experience of 6 years as a Special Forces weapons man in 3 different combat zones,and then being a professional school-trained gunsmith that worked in 2 gun shops before opening my own,so what the hell do I know about this subject,either?

It takes a hell of a lot of training to get really good with the 1911, and that's just not practical for the average shooter.  It's a tough gun to shoot well.

[Smokin Joe]

I have heard old old stories from old old timers who brought down deer with a .22 on a regular basis, where you hit is a huge part of whether you bring the critter down and how far you have to hike after it when you do.

I agree about the .22--it will do the job.