Author Topic: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...  (Read 9568 times)

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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2016, 10:04:58 pm »
Who is against Nationalism.. not me.

I am against a Fascist fraud known as trump.


You see the mote of Fascism in Trump's eye,  but take no note of the Fascist  beam in Hillary's?   


Whatever else you may conjecture Trump to be,   it has already been demonstrated that Hillary is.   


For those people who have kept up with what Hillary has done since the 1960s,  the prospect of her wielding power is horrifying. 



She is from Chicago too,  you know. 


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2016, 10:22:54 pm »
Hitler = Nationalism and Fascism


Hitler = Nationalism and Socialism.   That is where the word "Nazi"  comes from.   

The full name of the party of Hitler is:


NAtional-SoZIalistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei   

(National Socialist German Worker's Party.)   



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Offline INVAR

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2016, 10:25:22 pm »
That's not to say things aren't messed up, but we at least ought to stay within the bounds of reality by not letting our rhetoric distort the historical record.


Well, you are certainly free to continue to believe this country still operates as a Constitutional republic to your heart's content. 

I know where we are given the pattern of history and prophetic warnings of what will occur by no less than those that framed the nation.  It's not hard to see where all this leads given the unwavering direction this nation's culture, people and government are going if one is willing to take off the rose colored glasses and look.

I call it fascism even though it's a hybrid of both Marxism and Fascism.  You can call it whatever you like.

Or pretend we're still a republic.

It makes no difference to me.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2016, 10:26:14 pm »
Mescaline didn't just bold a few words

Mescaline is my new name for him too.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2016, 10:29:01 pm »
I took it exactly the direction it should go. And that is a direction that exposes the kind of delusion that would compare the GOP nominee with Il Duce. Nobody with even a passing understanding of Italian fascism, American history, or the basics of government could make such a comparison. Its not just wrong, its laughable. There is no bigger Capitalist than Mr. Trump, and certainly he is a Nationalist. That's it. Its your pathetic need to label him in a negative way that drives this kind of delusion...because it has no basis in reality. Have you no decency, sir?



This is what I have been thinking as well.   I am no fan of Trump,   but these hystrionic claims are as bad as what the Trump supporters were saying about Cruz.   


I wish people would stop this nonsense. 



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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2016, 11:37:26 pm »
I'll leave it to the Community to decide each onto their own.

Since you aksed:
 Ya lost. Sorry. Nobody did anything "dishonest." You didn't answer the actual idea. You went on to an thinly vield personal attack.
Better luck next time.
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Henry Noel

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2016, 11:38:29 pm »
You seem to want to imply that Nationalism is a precursor or cause of Fascism, a point that is absurd in our current context...which is what the article points out so well.

In the twentieth century fascism arose as a popular reaction to common fears and discontents which were played upon by populists, demagogues, and other charlatans. Nationalism was a very large part of their spiel.
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2016, 11:43:27 pm »
Patriotism is an allegiance on a different plan than nationalism. True American patriotism is loyalty to the ideals that make America what it is. Loyalty above that given any leader or government. Nationalism leads to unquestioning devotion to country and is easily turned into blindly following a man or government. A patriot can say as Jefferson did, “Resistance to Tyrants is obedience to God!”
A Patriot has a freedom a nationalist cannot; he need not clear his beliefs against that of any leader or group he can freely hold to those belief of Liberty and Truth no matter the opposition. 
Our founding fathers were Patriots fighting for their God given rights, it went far beyond nationalism.
 
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2016, 12:36:36 am »
Patriotism is an allegiance on a different plan than nationalism. True American patriotism is loyalty to the ideals that make America what it is. Loyalty above that given any leader or government. Nationalism leads to unquestioning devotion to country and is easily turned into blindly following a man or government. A patriot can say as Jefferson did, “Resistance to Tyrants is obedience to God!”
A Patriot has a freedom a nationalist cannot; he need not clear his beliefs against that of any leader or group he can freely hold to those belief of Liberty and Truth no matter the opposition. 
Our founding fathers were Patriots fighting for their God given rights, it went far beyond nationalism.
 

Nationalism is simply the love of country above the interest of other organizations and nations. It is neither good nor bad in moral terms, and like religion its qualitative value is defined by how it is conveyed. You are giving a connotation to nationalism that stems from your apparent impression of how it was misused by men like Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini, but that is a gross misreading of the history of nationalism. It was nationalism that created most of the nations of Europe, and it was shaped in the 17th and 18th century by the tenets of Classical Liberal thought...the inherent freedoms of mankind and such...but especially the idea that the nation must serve the interests of its citizens above all else and ensure their rights and freedom. And there is nothing unquestioning about our modern version of nationalism. on the contrary it unceasingly queries that its leaders are continuing to act in the best interests of its citizens...who will not only question, but remove leaders obstruct freedom and prosperity.

But as I said, it is innately amoral...and in the modern sense it is being used by candidate Trump simply as an assertion that the interests of the people of the United States are best served when our leaders elevate the needs of Americans, rather than the interests of external organizations like the UN, NATO, other nations and other world bodies and organizations. It is in this case, synonymous with patriotism and is indicative of a love of country and a belief that our freedoms are best preserved by looking to the interests of the American people specifically. ALL the American people, not a select few or an ethnically select race as was the case in the earlier 20th century. Our current sense of nationalism carries no connotations of blind followership, bigotry, or any other irrational ideology...it is a simple desire to have a government that puts the American people first and always.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 12:40:26 am by Mesaclone »
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Offline Fantom

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2016, 12:56:11 am »

You see the mote of Fascism in Trump's eye,  but take no note of the Fascist  beam in Hillary's?   


Whatever else you may conjecture Trump to be,   it has already been demonstrated that Hillary is.   


For those people who have kept up with what Hillary has done since the 1960s,  the prospect of her wielding power is horrifying. 



She is from Chicago too,  you know.

The logical fallacy here folks is called Tu quoque.

Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

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Offline Fantom

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2016, 01:00:56 am »
Nationalism is simply the love of country above the interest of other organizations and nations. It is neither good nor bad in moral terms, and like religion its qualitative value is defined by how it is conveyed. You are giving a connotation to nationalism that stems from your apparent impression of how it was misused by men like Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini, but that is a gross misreading of the history of nationalism. It was nationalism that created most of the nations of Europe, and it was shaped in the 17th and 18th century by the tenets of Classical Liberal thought...the inherent freedoms of mankind and such...but especially the idea that the nation must serve the interests of its citizens above all else and ensure their rights and freedom. And there is nothing unquestioning about our modern version of nationalism. on the contrary it unceasingly queries that its leaders are continuing to act in the best interests of its citizens...who will not only question, but remove leaders obstruct freedom and prosperity.

But as I said, it is innately amoral...and in the modern sense it is being used by candidate Trump simply as an assertion that the interests of the people of the United States are best served when our leaders elevate the needs of Americans, rather than the interests of external organizations like the UN, NATO, other nations and other world bodies and organizations. It is in this case, synonymous with patriotism and is indicative of a love of country and a belief that our freedoms are best preserved by looking to the interests of the American people specifically. ALL the American people, not a select few or an ethnically select race as was the case in the earlier 20th century. Our current sense of nationalism carries no connotations of blind followership, bigotry, or any other irrational ideology...it is a simple desire to have a government that puts the American people first and always.

A lot of words which have empowered a lot of death.

I do not have a problem with Nationalism.. indeed I embrace it.

But when you add Nationalism with a demagogic fascist like Hitler/Trump/El Duce/Pol Pot... not good.
Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

Frederick Douglass

Offline aligncare

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2016, 01:18:43 am »
Nationalism is simply the love of country above the interest of other organizations and nations. It is neither good nor bad in moral terms, and like religion its qualitative value is defined by how it is conveyed. You are giving a connotation to nationalism that stems from your apparent impression of how it was misused by men like Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini, but that is a gross misreading of the history of nationalism. It was nationalism that created most of the nations of Europe, and it was shaped in the 17th and 18th century by the tenets of Classical Liberal thought...the inherent freedoms of mankind and such...but especially the idea that the nation must serve the interests of its citizens above all else and ensure their rights and freedom. And there is nothing unquestioning about our modern version of nationalism. on the contrary it unceasingly queries that its leaders are continuing to act in the best interests of its citizens...who will not only question, but remove leaders obstruct freedom and prosperity.

But as I said, it is innately amoral...and in the modern sense it is being used by candidate Trump simply as an assertion that the interests of the people of the United States are best served when our leaders elevate the needs of Americans, rather than the interests of external organizations like the UN, NATO, other nations and other world bodies and organizations. It is in this case, synonymous with patriotism and is indicative of a love of country and a belief that our freedoms are best preserved by looking to the interests of the American people specifically. ALL the American people, not a select few or an ethnically select race as was the case in the earlier 20th century. Our current sense of nationalism carries no connotations of blind followership, bigotry, or any other irrational ideology...it is a simple desire to have a government that puts the American people first and always.

Kudos! Mesa. And may I add, Donald Trump's nationalism is as American as apple pie.

It's the way I was taught it as an immigrant in Brooklyn public schools in the 60s. Pledge of Allegiance, our history taught with reverence, stories told of the founding fathers' risking it all for liberty. Love of country. It's America, folks. The greatest nation God put on earth. Fascism? Piffle.

Offline Fantom

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2016, 01:23:00 am »
Since you aksed:
 Ya lost. Sorry. Nobody did anything "dishonest." You didn't answer the actual idea. You went on to an thinly vield personal attack.
Better luck next time.

Fair enough as an opinion.
Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

Frederick Douglass

Offline Fantom

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2016, 01:33:08 am »
Kudos! Mesa. And may I add, Donald Trump's nationalism is as American as apple pie.

It's the way I was taught it as an immigrant in Brooklyn public schools in the 60s. Pledge of Allegiance, our history taught with reverence, stories told of the founding fathers' risking it all for liberty. Love of country. It's America, folks. The greatest nation God put on earth. Fascism? Piffle.

And steal all you can get.
Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

Frederick Douglass

Offline Fantom

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2016, 01:36:52 am »


Heh... looks like the trumpers strike back....

...Worth noting.   :tongue2:
Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

Frederick Douglass

Offline Fantom

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2016, 01:39:37 am »
Patriotism is an allegiance on a different plan than nationalism. True American patriotism is loyalty to the ideals that make America what it is. Loyalty above that given any leader or government. Nationalism leads to unquestioning devotion to country and is easily turned into blindly following a man or government. A patriot can say as Jefferson did, “Resistance to Tyrants is obedience to God!”
A Patriot has a freedom a nationalist cannot; he need not clear his beliefs against that of any leader or group he can freely hold to those belief of Liberty and Truth no matter the opposition. 
Our founding fathers were Patriots fighting for their God given rights, it went far beyond nationalism.
 

I agree.. yet trump is a fascist... who would rule you under His Rights.
Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

Frederick Douglass

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2016, 02:24:58 am »
But when you add Nationalism with a demagogic fascist like Hitler/Trump/El Duce/Pol Pot... not good.

This is getting ridiculous. Doesn't anyone actually read history anymore?  These comparisons are complete garbage.

Exactly who are Trump's Blackshirts/MVSN?  Where are his Brownshirts/S.A.??  I sure as hell haven't seen them.  In much less populous countries than we are, Mussolini and Hitler both had hundreds of thousands of street thugs organized into paramilitary gangs, beating up opposition leaders, disrupting opposing political rallies etc.. Pol Pot was a communist revolutionary who took power by force and never even entered the electoral process at all.  And that's your Trump comparisons??

Comparing any of those murderous thugs to Trump is an insult to every Trump supporter who shows up at peaceful rallies and votes.  Some of you are turning this thread into a triumph of historical illiteracy.

 Hey @Mesaclone, remember asking me what could induce me to vote for Trump?  It's this "Trump is a fascist", hysterically over the top stuff.  It's the flip side of what is being said at FR.

The real fascist threat to this country comes from the Democrats on the left, with their speech codes, microaggressions, BLM protestors shutting down traffic, Sanders' supporting anti-Trump goon squads, etc..  Letting the media run with this "Trump is a fascist" stuff amoint to them giving a free pass to what the highly organized, disciplined left is doing right in front of our faces.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 03:21:35 am by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2016, 04:26:06 am »
This is getting ridiculous. Doesn't anyone actually read history anymore?  These comparisons are complete garbage.

Exactly who are Trump's Blackshirts/MVSN?  Where are his Brownshirts/S.A.??  I sure as hell haven't seen them.  In much less populous countries than we are, Mussolini and Hitler both had hundreds of thousands of street thugs organized into paramilitary gangs, beating up opposition leaders, disrupting opposing political rallies etc.. Pol Pot was a communist revolutionary who took power by force and never even entered the electoral process at all.  And that's your Trump comparisons??

Comparing any of those murderous thugs to Trump is an insult to every Trump supporter who shows up at peaceful rallies and votes.  Some of you are turning this thread into a triumph of historical illiteracy.

 Hey @Mesaclone, remember asking me what could induce me to vote for Trump?  It's this "Trump is a fascist", hysterically over the top stuff.  It's the flip side of what is being said at FR.

The real fascist threat to this country comes from the Democrats on the left, with their speech codes, microaggressions, BLM protestors shutting down traffic, Sanders' supporting anti-Trump goon squads, etc..  Letting the media run with this "Trump is a fascist" stuff amoint to them giving a free pass to what the highly organized, disciplined left is doing right in front of our faces.

Bill, I've got a lot of the same reservations as you regarding Mr. Trump. I'm a big believer in Reagan's golden rule and I hate the way Trump goes after some of our own...though I do understand some of the reasons he does this. Nonetheless, it is wrong and he needs to stop...I'd like to see a classier level of dialogue from him across the board as well. For me the balance sheet is also effected by his enemies, as you said, the crazy "Trump is a fascist" crowd who are doing Hillary's dirty work because their own understanding of history is so disturbingly lacking. In the end, Trump is a quick study generally and I think he is taking on the lesson of aiming his fire where it belongs...at Mrs. Clinton and the campus PC thought police. I expect he is going to take on some strong intellectual advisors...like Newt Gingrich for example...and brush up on his delivery and depth of knowledge. All that said, I like his attitude when he's going after the media and other collaborators in the PC mob...they need to be hit and hit hard with a touch of crassness.

Sometimes, what's needed isn't a Cicero, its a Samuel Adams...a brawler.

I hope in the end, Bill, your comfort level with Mr. Trump will ease and he will do his part to earn your trust and vote. The alternative is too horrific to contemplate...a Clinton 8 years, 3-4 leftwing SCJ's, and more PC and big government in our face...just a total disaster.

As for this fascism stuff...its insulting to the memory of anyone who has suffered under the real thing. The idiocy required to believe that our nominee is a fascist is astounding...as you mentioned, its the free speech of Mr. Trump and his supporters that is continually under siege by paid and professional thugs who initiate violence, disruption and rioting at his speaking events. THOSE are the brownshirts...and for some reason, a number of angry ex-Cruz types are falling in line with that thuggery...all the while calling the victim of these actions a fascist. Just incredible.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 04:28:04 am by Mesaclone »
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2016, 04:33:34 am »
Bill, I've got a lot of the same reservations as you regarding Mr. Trump. I'm a big believer in Reagan's golden rule and I hate the way Trump goes after some of our own...though I do understand some of the reasons he does this. Nonetheless, it is wrong and he needs to stop...I'd like to see a classier level of dialogue from him across the board as well. For me the balance sheet is also effected by his enemies, as you said, the crazy "Trump is a fascist" crowd who are doing Hillary's dirty work because their own understanding of history is so disturbingly lacking. In the end, Trump is a quick study generally and I think he is taking on the lesson of aiming his fire where it belongs...at Mrs. Clinton and the campus PC thought police. I expect he is going to take on some strong intellectual advisors...like Newt Gingrich for example...and brush up on his delivery and depth of knowledge. All that said, I like his attitude when he's going after the media and other collaborators in the PC mob...they need to be hit and hit hard with a touch of crassness.

I hope in the end, Bill, your comfort level with Mr. Trump will ease and he will do his part to earn your trust and vote. The alternative is too horrific to contemplate...a Clinton 8 years, 3-4 leftwing SCJ's, and more PC and big government in our face...just a total disaster.

As for this fascism stuff...its insulting to the memory of anyone who has suffered under the real thing. The idiocy required to believe that our nominee is a fascist is astounding...as you mentioned, its the free speech of Mr. Trump and his supporters that is continually under siege by paid and professional thugs who initiate violence, disruption and rioting at his speaking events. THOSE are the brownshirts...and for some reason, a number of angry ex-Cruz types are falling in line with that thuggery...all the while calling the victim of these actions a fascist. Just incredible.

Foe decades, the Democrats and leftists in general have been promulgating the myth that fascism is exclusively the province of the right.  And therefore, it cannot apply to them.
But that is exactly what the left is becoming in this country right now, and too many are reluctant to call them on it.  And many of the people who should be calling them on it are too busy comparing a blowhard like Trump to a mass murderer like Pol Pot.


Offline INVAR

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2016, 04:50:10 am »
As for this fascism stuff...its insulting to the memory of anyone who has suffered under the real thing.

I got family members who LIVED under Benito and Hitler in the Old Countries when they were kids.  They suffered big time.  They see not only the similarities of what they lived taking shape again here, they talk about the alarming parallels they are hearing, watching and reading with what they remember from back then.  Most of the family, like most of you - ignores their warnings and wave them off as 'senile'.

What's insulting to their memories is watching them fear they are going to have to relive it all over again because none of us youngons are listening to them.  As Opa told me - "There's no where on earth left to run to when I see the same thing happening here".

I'll take THEIR word about what they say Fascism is, and who Trump, Obama and Hillary reminds them of, than anything you or any other person who didn't live it insist Fascism is or isn't.  THEY would know.  YOU do not.
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...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2016, 11:59:00 am »
I got family members who LIVED under Benito and Hitler in the Old Countries when they were kids.  They suffered big time.  They see not only the similarities of what they lived taking shape again here, they talk about the alarming parallels they are hearing, watching and reading with what they remember from back then.  Most of the family, like most of you - ignores their warnings and wave them off as 'senile'.

What's insulting to their memories is watching them fear they are going to have to relive it all over again because none of us youngons are listening to them.  As Opa told me - "There's no where on earth left to run to when I see the same thing happening here".

I'll take THEIR word about what they say Fascism is, and who Trump, Obama and Hillary reminds them of, than anything you or any other person who didn't live it insist Fascism is or isn't.  THEY would know.  YOU do not.

You can take anyone's word for anything but that doesn't of itself give validity to a concept. My 101 year old grandmother just passed away last month, and having lived through some unbelievable atrocities, would have laughed at comparing an American party nominee who has never called for, used, or inspired violence...and no, saying in the old days I'd have punched "that guy" for swearing in front of our children is not a "call' to general violence...to a fascist. Fascists suppress free speech, they don't give speeches on gun rights...fascists use their thugs to intimidate, attack and kill those with whom they disagree rather than having their own open forums assaulted by violent paid thugs.

Your ignorance and inability to contextualize history, paints democratic populism as demagoguery, it proclaims nationalism and patriotism to be xenophobia, and it is unable to distinguish between a candidate who does nothing to suppress the speech of his rivals whilst his own speeches and rallies are sieged by violent thugs who seek only to silence him.  You take your shallow view of Mr Trump being egotistical and crass, which he inarguably is, and try to convert that to megalomaniacal fanaticism...but all along the way you have nothing to support your wild claims other than...well...your wild claims.

As Major Bill asked...where are the Brown shirts? Where are the calls for the annihilation of the opposition through violence? Where is the effort to oppress the free speech of others and to take away their right to bear arms? Where are the eugenics and the cultic mysticism? You will find none of these in Mr. Trump...none. What you will find, is genuine brown shirts attacking his campaign rallies....what you WILL find are violent paid thugs starting fights and attacking local police to "protest" Mr. Trump's free speech...what you WILL find is a party that seeks to disarm the populace in abrogation of the 2nd amendment...what you WILL find is a nationwide movement to create "safe" zones where free conservative speech is nullified in favor of liberal political correctness...and what you WILL find is a party that vilifies all conservatives as being the epicenter of evil and the cause of all our nations problems.

Heck, look to the American Left and you will find a movement on campus that strives for no less than to "re-educate" the children of those who stray from liberal groupthink. It works to literally rewrite history, shaping it to a radical and oppressive leftist ideology. And finally, you WILL find ont he Far Left an ideology that seeks to break our nation into ethnic enclaves and then to use those Balkanized groupings against one another to oppress the economic and social advancement of all. If you want to find fascism in its early stages in America, all you need do is look to the far left...instead, you proclaim a mirage that is little more than a figment of your misguided imagination. Open your eyes, read up on the genuine history and causes of fascism, and see what is really going on in our national polity.

Fascism, particularly the brand we saw in the pre-WWII era, was an extension of the socialist workers party mentality coupled with a distortion of nationalistic thought...and it has nothing in common with any of the ideas or attitudes of the current GOP nominee, nor does it historically fit as an analogy for anything in our modern setting. The nearest kind of tyranny you will find in our modern setting, one that promotes group well being and oppresses individual freedom in the name of "right thinking" is what we are finding on the Far Left in America. That you would twist this and accuse the very person opposing this oppession...using none of the tools so common to fascism in doing so...is a travesty of morality, an intellectual failure, and a self justifying idiocy you are foisting to justify your dislike of the GOP nominee. Its disgusting and unethical, and you truly should be ashamed.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 12:01:05 pm by Mesaclone »
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Offline Mechanicos

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2016, 12:31:31 pm »
You can take anyone's word for anything but that doesn't of itself give validity to a concept. My 101 year old grandmother just passed away last month, and having lived through some unbelievable atrocities, would have laughed at comparing an American party nominee who has never called for, used, or inspired violence...and no, saying in the old days I'd have punched "that guy" for swearing in front of our children is not a "call' to general violence...to a fascist. Fascists suppress free speech, they don't give speeches on gun rights...fascists use their thugs to intimidate, attack and kill those with whom they disagree rather than having their own open forums assaulted by violent paid thugs.

Your ignorance and inability to contextualize history, paints democratic populism as demagoguery, it proclaims nationalism and patriotism to be xenophobia, and it is unable to distinguish between a candidate who does nothing to suppress the speech of his rivals whilst his own speeches and rallies are sieged by violent thugs who seek only to silence him.  You take your shallow view of Mr Trump being egotistical and crass, which he inarguably is, and try to convert that to megalomaniacal fanaticism...but all along the way you have nothing to support your wild claims other than...well...your wild claims.

As Major Bill asked...where are the Brown shirts? Where are the calls for the annihilation of the opposition through violence? Where is the effort to oppress the free speech of others and to take away their right to bear arms? Where are the eugenics and the cultic mysticism? You will find none of these in Mr. Trump...none. What you will find, is genuine brown shirts attacking his campaign rallies....what you WILL find are violent paid thugs starting fights and attacking local police to "protest" Mr. Trump's free speech...what you WILL find is a party that seeks to disarm the populace in abrogation of the 2nd amendment...what you WILL find is a nationwide movement to create "safe" zones where free conservative speech is nullified in favor of liberal political correctness...and what you WILL find is a party that vilifies all conservatives as being the epicenter of evil and the cause of all our nations problems.

Heck, look to the American Left and you will find a movement on campus that strives for no less than to "re-educate" the children of those who stray from liberal groupthink. It works to literally rewrite history, shaping it to a radical and oppressive leftist ideology. And finally, you WILL find ont he Far Left an ideology that seeks to break our nation into ethnic enclaves and then to use those Balkanized groupings against one another to oppress the economic and social advancement of all. If you want to find fascism in its early stages in America, all you need do is look to the far left...instead, you proclaim a mirage that is little more than a figment of your misguided imagination. Open your eyes, read up on the genuine history and causes of fascism, and see what is really going on in our national polity.

Fascism, particularly the brand we saw in the pre-WWII era, was an extension of the socialist workers party mentality coupled with a distortion of nationalistic thought...and it has nothing in common with any of the ideas or attitudes of the current GOP nominee, nor does it historically fit as an analogy for anything in our modern setting. The nearest kind of tyranny you will find in our modern setting, one that promotes group well being and oppresses individual freedom in the name of "right thinking" is what we are finding on the Far Left in America. That you would twist this and accuse the very person opposing this oppession...using none of the tools so common to fascism in doing so...is a travesty of morality, an intellectual failure, and a self justifying idiocy you are foisting to justify your dislike of the GOP nominee. Its disgusting and unethical, and you truly should be ashamed.

 goopo :hands: :hands: :hands:
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Offline aligncare

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2016, 01:00:32 pm »
If I was put in charge, I would install Mesaclone as Donald Trump's TBR press secretary--he's that good.  :beer:

And while I'm at it, I would appoint Maj Bill as Trump's TBR ombudsman.  :patriot:

Both members show the kind of intelligence needed to navigate the political rapids of a primary season and stay afloat.


Offline aligncare

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2016, 01:06:38 pm »
I got family members who LIVED under Benito and Hitler in the Old Countries when they were kids.  They suffered big time.  They see not only the similarities of what they lived taking shape again here, they talk about the alarming parallels they are hearing, watching and reading with what they remember from back then.  Most of the family, like most of you - ignores their warnings and wave them off as 'senile'.

What's insulting to their memories is watching them fear they are going to have to relive it all over again because none of us youngons are listening to them.  As Opa told me - "There's no where on earth left to run to when I see the same thing happening here".

I'll take THEIR word about what they say Fascism is, and who Trump, Obama and Hillary reminds them of, than anything you or any other person who didn't live it insist Fascism is or isn't.  THEY would know.  YOU do not.

At family gatherings my paternal grandfather always managed to end up cursing Benito Mussolini when the discussion turned to the old country. I learned at his knee what a fascist is. And I wholeheartedly support Mr. Trump.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2016, 01:18:02 pm »
I got family members who LIVED under Benito and Hitler in the Old Countries when they were kids.  They suffered big time.  They see not only the similarities of what they lived taking shape again here, they talk about the alarming parallels they are hearing, watching and reading with what they remember from back then.  Most of the family, like most of you - ignores their warnings and wave them off as 'senile'.

What's insulting to their memories is watching them fear they are going to have to relive it all over again because none of us youngons are listening to them.  As Opa told me - "There's no where on earth left to run to when I see the same thing happening here".

I'll take THEIR word about what they say Fascism is, and who Trump, Obama and Hillary reminds them of, than anything you or any other person who didn't live it insist Fascism is or isn't.  THEY would know.  YOU do not.

You would never accept "if my grandfather says it, it must be true" as a valid argument from anyone. You'd rightfully tear it to shreds.

I'd add this - Mussolini took power in 1922, and became a dictator by 1925.  I'd say you'd have to have been at least 15 or so to have sufficient political awareness to know what was going on then, meaning that your relative would have to be 104 or so to remember him coming to power.  Hitler and the S.A. were maybe a half decade behind in terms of street thuggery, so we're still talking about nearly 100.

None of us would ever accept one person's anecdotes and opinions about about poiltical history or world events as unchallengeable fact just because they say it on twitter or on a message board.  You call out other people all the time if you don't believe their opinions fit the facts.   So we all have our own biases through which we view things. 

Just because someone is old doesn't make their opinions any more reliable or accurate than they were when they were younger and subject to being challenged.



« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 01:31:29 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »