The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...

[Mesaclone]

and the liberals who strive to confuse the two.

https://geopoliticalfutures.com/nationalism-is-rising-not-fascism/

Key Excerpt:
What we are seeing is the rise of the nation-state against the will of multinational organizations and agreements. There are serious questions about membership in the EU, NATO and trade agreements, and equally about the right to control borders. Reasonable people can disagree, and it is the political process of each nation that retains the power to determine shifts in policy. There is no guarantee that the citizenry will be wise, but that cuts both ways and in every direction.

[Fantom]

Nationalism, Fascism, and Socialism are not mutually exclusive concepts. They easily co-exist.

[Oceander]

Nationalism, Fascism, and Socialism are not mutually exclusive concepts. They easily co-exist.

Yes they do.  As the full name of the NSDAP demonstrates.

[Mesaclone]

Nationalism, Fascism, Capitalism, Mercantilism, Communism and Socialism are not mutually exclusive concepts. They easily co-exist.

You forgot a few "isms"...bolded them for you...and there are more that could go on such a strange amalgam of political and economic ideologies. It is true that NONE of the economic philosphies of Socialism, Capitalism, Mercantilism...heck, even Feudalism...are mutually exclusive of fascism but stating that has nothing to do with the content of the article. That's because fascism is not an economic philosophy.

You seem to want to imply that Nationalism is a precursor or cause of Fascism, a point that is absurd in our current context...which is what the article points out so well. You do nothing to refute that cogent point but instead try to put forward an unsupportable suggestion. Silly and anti-intellectual at best. Nationalism within reason is a rational and positive ideology, and one that many conservatives have advocated for many years...and which Trump advocates for in his campaign. But, as the article points out so clearly, there is no whiff of fascism in any of the modern western nationalistic movements...and it is empty liberal talking point to try to create such a link. Welcome to the Hillary camp, sir!

[Fantom]

I am a lying scumbag like trump.

I quote other posters and then change their quoted post.. like the lying scumbag I and trump are.

FIFY


See how easy that is. We can both do that if you want.

[INVAR]

You forgot a few "isms"...bolded them for you...You do nothing to refute that cogent point but instead try to put forward an unsupportable suggestion. Silly and anti-intellectual at best.

...and which Trump advocates for in his campaign. But, as the article points out so clearly, there is no whiff of fascism in any of the modern western nationalistic movements...Welcome to the Hillary camp, sir!

Can't tell the difference between the above arrogant condescension and anything that comes from the Hillary camp.

You really ought to stop projecting.

[Mesaclone]

FIFY


See how easy that is. We can both do that if you want.

Yes, but its stupid when you do it. And dishonest.
When I do it, I make clear what part is mine...you know, for the sake of honesty. You should try it on, perhaps a run with some honesty would change your narrow perspective.

[Mesaclone]

Can't tell the difference between the above arrogant condescension and anything that comes from the Hillary camp.

You really ought to stop projecting.

Well, one of us is supporting the GOP and its nominee against Hillary. One is not.

Given that scenario, its rather easy to see who is the one projecting.

[Fantom]

Yes, but its stupid when you do it. And dishonest.
When I do it, I make clear what part is mine...you know, for the sake of honesty. You should try it on, perhaps a run with some honesty would change your narrow perspective.

Actually, I am not bearing false witness, you are.  I am being honest and giving you a chance to show that you are wrong.

You did not take it. Which shows what you really are.

Do not be a slimeball/trumpansie.   Keep your words in your words. Or you are as dishoinest as your cult leader.

[Mesaclone]

Actually, I am not bearing false witness, you are.  I am being honest and giving you a chance to show that you are wrong.

You did not take it. Which shows what you really are.

Do not be a slimeball/trumpansie.   Keep your words in your words. Or you are as dishoinest as your cult leader.

I was entirely honest...I clearly highlighted (bolded) every word I wrote. You, on the other hand, sought to blend your words in and pass them as my own. That's as dishonest as it gets, though I doubt you've the courage to admit it.

[Fishrrman]

Migosh, Mesaclone, it sure is a-gettin' thick in here tonight.

If it wasn't for the concept of "nationalism", there would have been no United States in the first place.
If it wasn't for a nationalistic spirit, how would we have defeated Japan and Germany?

Next thing we're gonna hear from the TDS'ers is that we should start cancelling parades and displays of the flag, because the wrong folks (read: Trumpers) might use such images in a "Republican" campaign for the presidency.

I'll take a dose of the "nationalism", particularly when this nation is coming apart at the seams for the lack of it, thank you very much. And I was never much one for parades, at that.

Hint:
The problem with nationalism today, is that it's white folks who be wavin' the flags.
Anyone else, jes' fine!

[Fantom]

I was entirely honest...I clearly highlighted (bolded) every word I wrote. You, on the other hand, sought to blend your words in and pass them as my own. That's as dishonest as it gets, though I doubt you've the courage to admit it.

I'll leave it to the Community to decide each onto their own. Just who the dishonesty is here. I suspect.. even the long time posters here who support Trump, are more honest than you.

You , make it easy.

[Fantom]

Migosh, Mesaclone, it sure is a-gettin' thick in here tonight.

If it wasn't for the concept of "nationalism", there would have been no United States in the first place.
If it wasn't for a nationalistic spirit, how would we have defeated Japan and Germany?

Next thing we're gonna hear from the TDS'ers is that we should start cancelling parades and displays of the flag, because the wrong folks (read: Trumpers) might use such images in a "Republican" campaign for the presidency.

I'll take a dose of the "nationalism", particularly when this nation is coming apart at the seams for the lack of it, thank you very much. And I was never much one for parades, at that.

Hint:
The problem with nationalism today, is that it's white folks who be wavin' the flags.
Anyone else, jes' fine!

Who is against Nationalism.. not me.

I am against a Fascist fraud known as trump.

[Fantom]

Can't tell the difference between the above arrogant condescension and anything that comes from the Hillary camp.

You really ought to stop projecting.

There must be a reason trumpansies sound like BLM.

[Suppressed]

Who is against Nationalism.. not me.

I am against a Fascist fraud known as trump.

Yes, Nationalism is only one of the Foundation stones of fascism.  Another is the use of the government to support business, another tenet of Trumpism.

When you look at the characteristics of Italian fascism, it's so very similar to Trump's views that it really has to be called fascism, even if it has a modern American twist.

[Fantom]

Yes, Nationalism is only one of the Foundation stones of fascism.  Another is the use of the government to support business, another tenet of Trumpism.

When you look at the characteristics of Italian fascism, it's so very similar to Trump's views that it really has to be called fascism, even if it has a modern American twist.

Yes, trump is very much like El Duce. Just not as strong a leader. 

As mesa/trump noted before he took it in a direction he should not have. There are a lot of "Isms which would Venn with Fascism.... true Capitalism would be a very hard fit. As Fascism requires a strong central State to enforce it's dictates.

As that is what "Fascism' is.. central control by a dictator. I  s'pose it could include a ruling party/oligarchy. Another major facet of fascism is it does not tolerate any dissent.... trump anyone? To me.. fascism is the software of whatever hardware/government you are using.  As noted.. capitalism works best outside of strong central control that fascism requires.

Which brings us back to trump.. who's fascist is he? For a fascist he is.. whether or not he is actually a Nationalist.... meh.

[INVAR]

Yes, Nationalism is only one of the Foundation stones of fascism.  Another is the use of the government to support business, another tenet of Trumpism.

When you look at the characteristics of Italian fascism, it's so very similar to Trump's views that it really has to be called fascism, even if it has a modern American twist.

 BINGO!!!!!

I'm not even sure if Benito threatened to punish or put out of business Italian corporations if they did not make "their damn products" in Italy like Trump has.

[Chosen Daughter]

Hitler = Nationalism and Fascism

[Mesaclone]

Yes, trump is very much like El Duce. Just not as strong a leader. 

As mesa/trump noted before he took it in a direction he should not have. There are a lot of "Isms which would Venn with Fascism.... true Capitalism would be a very hard fit. As Fascism requires a strong central State to enforce it's dictates.

As that is what "Fascism' is.. central control by a dictator. I  s'pose it could include a ruling party/oligarchy. Another major facet of fascism is it does not tolerate any dissent.... trump anyone? To me.. fascism is the software of whatever hardware/government you are using.  As noted.. capitalism works best outside of strong central control that fascism requires.

Which brings us back to trump.. who's fascist is he? For a fascist he is.. whether or not he is actually a Nationalist.... meh.

I took it exactly the direction it should go. And that is a direction that exposes the kind of delusion that would compare the GOP nominee with Il Duce. Nobody with even a passing understanding of Italian fascism, American history, or the basics of government could make such a comparison. Its not just wrong, its laughable. There is no bigger Capitalist than Mr. Trump, and certainly he is a Nationalist. That's it. Its your pathetic need to label him in a negative way that drives this kind of delusion...because it has no basis in reality. Have you no decency, sir?

So this is simple, if you think Donald Trump is a fascist you are either completely devoid of historical understanding OR simply lying for effect. There is no 3rd option. You are attaching what you want to be on to what is, without providing any rational basis for what you're asserting. It is the worst kind of citizenship, dishonest and self serving, because it attempts to attach a negative label to make an impact...while utterly failing to establish any intellectual argument for it. Its no different than saying Ted Cruz is a mad Crusader bent on the slaughter of all muslims because he is a Christian. Or proclaiming Bernie Sanders in favor of the slaughter of millions of Jews because, like Stalin, he is a Socialist.

It is chilling in its immorality to make such wild assertions, and yet you throw them about cavalierly...like a child with a loaded Gatling gun running through a nursery. People have every right to oppose Mr. Trump, even to consider him unfit for the White House or a bad human being. That is not what you are doing. You are crying wolf with absurdly inapt terms like fascist for dramatic impact, or perhaps your grasp of history really is that incomplete, not realizing the terrible harm you do to our democracy and polity by making such patently false claims. When a real fascist comes along, which is unlikely under our political system, many will not see it or choose to ignore it because fools have run around foolishly using the term when it clearly didn't apply. For shame.

[INVAR]

When a real fascist comes along, which is unlikely under our political system,

Yet that is EXACTLY what we currently have operating as a governing system: fascism - the way Mussolini fashioned it in the 20's. Some call it crony capitalism or corporatism, but what it is in it's pure essence is fascism.    The marriage of the central State and business for mutual benefit of both the power of the state for dominance over competition and preferential treatments and influence on governing policy for the benefit of the state and the business.

Most are stuck in cognitive dissonance because that definition does not include the militarization and a police state that most insist must exist in order to have fascism.

My answer to that is: how many Alphabet agencies in the US today have their own military hardware and SWAT teams at their disposal? 

many will not see it or choose to ignore it because fools have run around foolishly using the term when it clearly didn't apply. For shame.

I find that hilarious coming from the party of Trump that now furiously attempts to redefine Conservatism to fit the views and agenda of a long-time Northeastern Liberal Democrat that they insist is a Constitutional Conservative.

What was it you said about fools running around foolishly using a term when it clearly didn't apply?

[Norm Lenhart]

Welcome to the Hillary camp, sir!

Considering you are the guy earlier today talking about being fed up with SoCons and , I quote, "Bible Thumpers", if anyone is in the Hillary camp, it's you. Because she is very much in agreement with you.

[kevindavis007]

Yes, Nationalism is only one of the Foundation stones of fascism.  Another is the use of the government to support business, another tenet of Trumpism.

When you look at the characteristics of Italian fascism, it's so very similar to Trump's views that it really has to be called fascism, even if it has a modern American twist.

America came close to fascism with Huey Long

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I'll leave it to the Community to decide each onto their own. Just who the dishonesty is here. I suspect.. even the long time posters here who support Trump, are more honest than you.

You , make it easy.

Mescaline didn't just bold a few words -- he also expressly said "you forgot a few isms" in that changed quote, and bolded the ones he added.  I'm not a fan of changing quotes because the background might be lost if the post is subsequently quoted, but I think it's pretty clear that he was making an argument and not trying to be deceptive.

The point he's making is legitimate -- one can be a nationalist without being a fascist, and I think that's particularly important to remember in this race given the actual fascism coming from the left.  Trump is a rude, immature a-hole who may not be deserving of our votes, but he's not the guy whose goons are trying to disrupt peaceful political dissent.  It is entirely possible to oppose Trump while still calling out the actual fascists in this election, because long after Trump is gone, the left's street goons are still going to be around.

I'd suggest that all conservatives battling over Trump right now enhance their credibility by not becoming so obsessed with Trump that we forget to oppose publicly what the left is doing.  And I know that some consider Trump on the left, so I'm not saying not to call him out as well if you feel that way.  I'm just saying that there are still all those other bad guys out there that none of us like, and we shouldn't forget about them.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Yet that is EXACTLY what we currently have operating as a governing system: fascism - the way Mussolini fashioned it in the 20's.

No it is not -- this is pretty wild hyperbole.  You cannot fairly separate Mussolini, his rise to power, and his "governing system" from the Blackshirts/MVSN, and the OVRA secret police who ended up being Italy's Gestapo.  Dissent was not permitted in Mussolini's Italy -- his Blackshirts were busting up opposition rallies and lawful strikes years before he took lawful power in 1922, and became much more severe after he consolidated power and turned Italy into a one-party state.

This is not something Trump has attempted or even advocated, nor is it even the case now under Obama.  In fact, the closest we are to fascism are the leftist street goons who try to disrupt Trump rallies, but even still, this isn't anything close to the fascism of 1920's (and beyond) Italy.  The opposition press isn't having their offices destroyed, opposition political leaders aren't being murdered, and people can still freely gather to dissent.  If this was 1920's Italy, Obama would have removed those justices who issued the Heller decision, and both Mitt Romney and Trump would be dead or in jail.

That's not to say things aren't messed up, but we at least ought to stay within the bounds of reality by not letting our rhetoric distort the historical record.

[Mesaclone]

Mescaline didn't just bold a few words -- he also expressly said "you forgot a few isms" in that changed quote, and bolded the ones he added.  I'm not a fan of changing quotes because the background might be lost if the post is subsequently quoted, but I think it's pretty clear that he was making an argument and not trying to be deceptive.

The point he's making is legitimate -- one can be a nationalist without being a fascist, and I think that's particularly important to remember in this race given the actual fascism coming from the left.  Trump is a rude, immature a-hole who may not be deserving of our votes, but he's not the guy whose goons are trying to disrupt peaceful political dissent.  It is entirely possible to oppose Trump while still calling out the actual fascists in this election, because long after Trump is gone, the left's street goons are still going to be around.

I'd suggest that all conservatives battling over Trump right now enhance their credibility by not becoming so obsessed with Trump that we forget to oppose publicly what the left is doing.  And I know that some consider Trump on the left, so I'm not saying not to call him out as well if you feel that way.  I'm just saying that there are still all those other bad guys out there that none of us like, and we shouldn't forget about them.

Major Bill, you are the quintessential voice of reason in a sea of hyperbolic irrationality. Kudos to you, sir. You and I clearly disagree regarding Mr. Trump, but I have nothing but respect for your perspective because you present it with calm reason and honesty. You are able to assert that you think Trump is not good for the nation without resorting to the absurd accusations of fascism and apocalypse that so many NeverTrumps use as their "goto" argument. The vacuousness of someone actually believing our system is currently fascists and/or that our nominee is such...is almost indescribably vast.

You have a grasp of history that shows more than just knowledge of the basic facts, you understand the context and significance of the past and its relation to our current situation. That is a rare thing these days, and as a serious student of history I applaud your depth and complexity when looking at past precedent.

Its baffling that so many are unable, or more likely unwilling, to argue rationally against a candidate they find unacceptable. I'm a Trump guy, but its clear that a solid case can be put forward without hyperbole and absurd comparisons, that Mr. Trump would not make a good president. Ultimately, I disagree with such arguments but for gosh sakes, I can sure respect a coherent and historically relevant point of view. Those folks here proclaiming fascism and other absurdities don't even realize how they are undermining their own case against Mr. Trump...by being comically irrational, they create the impression that those who disagree with Trump are insane, paranoid and unintelligent. Its a shame, because it would be so easy for all of us to disagree in a reasoned way and without all of this rancor.

Anyway, just wanted to say that your cool reasoning and demeanor are deeply appreciated by someone who most likely disagrees with you on some key issues.

BTW, I am an old Army Captain myself and wondered if you were a Major in the army or perhaps in one of the other services?