The GOP Civil War and its Opportunities (25% of the GOP will bolt if Trump is the nominee)

[Jazzhead]

 Hell, Jazzhead is here saying he'd vote for HRC and how Romney/ObamaCare is some sort of "conservative" policy.

I haven't voted for a Democrat for President in 40 years.   But I'll vote for HRC if that's what it takes to defeat Trump's bigotry and fascism.  No doubt, this year will be choice between two evils.  Some will spit the bit. I will not.   

And I'd appreciate it if you'd not lie about my position.  I said RomneyCare is conservative policy, not ObamaCare.  If you'd care to have a discussion, then let's talk.  And I've asked you directly, and you've declined to respond - what in your view is a "conservative" approach to providing affordable health insurance to persons with pre-existing medical conditions?     

[Jazzhead]

  What is it that Sink is always talking about leaving?  Not here.  The GOP - if Trump ends up the nominee. 

Why should anyone -sink or otherwise - who opposes bigotry and fascism vote GOP just out of party loyalty?  Trump's staging a hostile takeover of the GOP - I have no loyalty to his evil ass or his star-struck supporters.   

[ABX]

I haven't voted for a Democrat for President in 40 years.   But I'll vote for HRC if that's what it takes to defeat Trump's bigotry and fascism.  No doubt, this year will be choice between two evils.  Some will spit the bit. I will not.   

And I'd appreciate it if you'd not lie about my position.  I said RomneyCare is conservative policy, not ObamaCare.  If you'd care to have a discussion, then let's talk.  And I've asked you directly, and you've declined to respond - what in your view is a "conservative" approach to providing affordable health insurance to persons with pre-existing medical conditions?   

A wiser move would be to vote for a third party to the right, Libertarians or other option. That way a message can be sent about where the vacuum is. It wouldn't be going to the left as indicated by any protest vote for the Dems would give the impression of, but choose a protest vote to the right instead (I wouldn't even call that a protest vote but simply following convictions).

What's funny is a protest vote for a third party would be, by definition, an anti-establishment action. Isn't that what many think is needed?

[ABX]

Why should anyone -sink or otherwise - who opposes bigotry and fascism vote GOP just out of party loyalty?  Trump's staging a hostile takeover of the GOP - I have no loyalty to his evil ass or his star-struck supporters.

This isn't a football game where you have to root for the person with the "D" or "R" on his or her jersey only or scream at what wrassler has the best catch phrase. You are voting for Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces- vote your conviction, not party. If it happens to be Libertarian, Constitution, or whatever.

[Carling]

I haven't voted for a Democrat for President in 40 years.   But I'll vote for HRC if that's what it takes to defeat Trump's bigotry and fascism.  No doubt, this year will be choice between two evils.  Some will spit the bit. I will not.   

And I'd appreciate it if you'd not lie about my position.  I said RomneyCare is conservative policy, not ObamaCare.  If you'd care to have a discussion, then let's talk.  And I've asked you directly, and you've declined to respond - what in your view is a "conservative" approach to providing affordable health insurance to persons with pre-existing medical conditions?  

I like Trump's approach.  Access to all who need it (which is what it is now via Medicaid anyhow), but allow insurance companies to cross over state lines to foster competition and to lower overall private rates and healthcare costs.  I'm also a proponent of tort reform so health care providers don't have to carry such ridiculous liability premiums, but your vote for HRC and the Lawyer Lobby will kill any chance for that, so thank you for being such a "conservative."  Lower the overall cost and allowing pre-existing conditions is less of a financial disaster.

Do you have a problem with that position?  Or are you cool with ObamaCare the way it is.  And yes, RomneyCare is a liberal policy, right down to the mandate forcing every citizen to become a part of it.

[sinkspur]

If healthcare is not mandated for everyone, then why have it? 

If pre-existing conditions have to be covered, just wait til you get sick and stick it to the insurance company.

No, if pre-existing conditions have to be covered, then a mandate is necessary.

[Carling]

Why should anyone -sink or otherwise - who opposes bigotry and fascism vote GOP just out of party loyalty? Trump's staging a hostile takeover of the GOP - I have no loyalty to his evil ass or his star-struck supporters.

Actually the GOP voters are sick of people like you telling them lies, or ridiculing them if they don't vote for the latest Milquetoast Mitt, and now you're having a temper tantrum to the point you're going to vote for an extremely liberal, pro-abortion, divisive to the point that the enemy she is proudest of making are Republicans, destroyer of Bill's numerous victims, etc. etc.

I see you and others say that Trump supporters have no morals, but look at what you're voting for and then justify your vile insults on this board.  It's so mind-boggling hypocritical that I have to assume you're just trolling this board as a liberal plant.

You're certainly no conservative.

[ABX]

[Fishrrman]

"25% of the GOP will bolt if Trump is the nominee..."

[truth_seeker]

Actually the GOP voters are sick of people like you telling them lies, or ridiculing them if they don't vote for the latest Milquetoast Mitt, and now you're having a temper tantrum to the point you're going to vote for an extremely liberal, pro-abortion, divisive to the point that the enemy she is proudest of making are Republicans, destroyer of Bill's numerous victims, etc. etc.

I see you and others say that Trump supporters have no morals, but look at what you're voting for and then justify your vile insults on this board.  It's so mind-boggling hypocritical that I have to assume you're just trolling this board as a liberal plant.

You're certainly no conservative.

A vote for Hillary is a sure sign of bad judgment. Maybe after voting for 40 years the mind is going weak ?

If I were to protest Trump, voting for Hillary would the LAST option. So I think Jazzhead is losing it. Or maybe he is part of the Sinkspur Attention Drama.  (SAD)

[alicewonders]

Why should anyone -sink or otherwise - who opposes bigotry and fascism vote GOP just out of party loyalty?  Trump's staging a hostile takeover of the GOP - I have no loyalty to his evil ass or his star-struck supporters.

Not what I was referring to at all.  I was referring to a response up-thread when Right_in_Virginia told Sink BYE when he was talking about leaving the GOP - she was accused of telling him BYE from this forum.

[raml]

After this last week of Rubio and Cruz trying to take down Trump I have made a decision to support Trump. I have really had it with anyone that wants the establishment to win by telling lies about Trump. Trump is no angel but then neither are any of the candidates running I haven't seen any wings on them. At least Trump has made a living using his ability and his mind. He didn't get where he is today by stealing from the taxpayers like so many politicians. He is a successful businessman. I am sick of politicians they are 95% corrupt and love it and they dare to say anything about Trump. I can see why people are rushing to Trump I listened to his press conference and realized this was a man I could vote for and be proud of it. Our caucus is in April we have had a vote but that doesn't select the delegates the caucus does and I and my family now will all vote Trump instead of them Trump and me Cruz.

[truth_seeker]

After this last week of Rubio and Cruz trying to take down Trump I have made a decision to support Trump. I have really had it with anyone that wants the establishment to win by telling lies about Trump. Trump is no angel but then neither are any of the candidates running I haven't seen any wings on them. At least Trump has made a living using his ability and his mind. He didn't get where he is today by stealing from the taxpayers like so many politicians. He is a successful businessman. I am sick of politicians they are 95% corrupt and love it and they dare to say anything about Trump. I can see why people are rushing to Trump I listened to his press conference and realized this was a man I could vote for and be proud of it. Our caucus is in April we have had a vote but that doesn't select the delegates the caucus does and I and my family now will all vote Trump instead of them Trump and me Cruz.

Yeah. I did a shift as well, a few weeks back.

[Carling]

Actually the GOP voters are sick of people like you telling them lies, or ridiculing them if they don't vote for the latest Milquetoast Mitt, and now you're having a temper tantrum to the point you're going to vote for an extremely liberal, pro-abortion, divisive to the point that the enemy she is proudest of making are Republicans, destroyer of Bill's numerous victims, etc. etc.

I see you and others say that Trump supporters have no morals, but look at what you're voting for and then justify your vile insults on this board.  It's so mind-boggling hypocritical that I have to assume you're just trolling this board as a liberal plant.

You're certainly no conservative.

I amswered Jazzhead's question to me about healthcare.  Notice how he didmt even dignify my reasoned answer with a response.  Or maybe it got deleted just as the presidential candidate he's voting for deleted her emails? 

What a joke.

[Jazzhead]

I amswered Jazzhead's question to me about healthcare.  Notice how he didmt even dignify my reasoned answer with a response.  Or maybe it got deleted just as the presidential candidate he's voting for deleted her emails? 

What a joke.

I'll answer your question later today when I have more time.  I wasn't on the board last night - I'm in a dice baseball league and was playing a series.   I don't think I gave you a reason to be so snotty.

Okay, here's a very short answer -  your response addresses competition in the health insurance market and is fine as far as it goes,  but it doesn't address the access issue.  I'm speaking specifically about folks with pre-existing conditions.   How do they get affordable health insurance?   In the insurance world, the answer is guaranteed issue -  but how do you keep things from becoming unaffordable for everyone else?   The answer is an individual mandate - you need to expand the insurance pool so the less healthy don't cause rates to rise for everyone else.  RomneyCare's intellectual underpinnings, if you'd research the subject, are conservative - the idea surfaced, I believe, in the seventies as an alternative to single payer that would preserve the private insurance system. 

[Right_in_Virginia]

Geez, the TOS zot patrol is now here?

Have you read the thread?  Or are you simply hellbent on sounding clever?

Either way, you look foolish.   

[DCPatriot]

Nope. They'll have to kick me out.

Not on my watch, buddy!      

But...you are getting on my nerves a bit.   

[Jazzhead]

A wiser move would be to vote for a third party to the right, Libertarians or other option. That way a message can be sent about where the vacuum is. It wouldn't be going to the left as indicated by any protest vote for the Dems would give the impression of, but choose a protest vote to the right instead (I wouldn't even call that a protest vote but simply following convictions).

What's funny is a protest vote for a third party would be, by definition, an anti-establishment action. Isn't that what many think is needed?

You're right AbaraXas - in all likelihood,  I'll vote third party for President (the main reason I will vote this fall is to re-elect Pat Toomey).   I hope a viable third party challenger emerges - to my way of thinking,  the conservative movement will be dead unless it rejects Trumpism's evil brew of nativism, xenophobia and white nationalism.   Trumpism is morally contemptable, and must be nipped in the bud no matter the short term cost.

Let me be clear - any vote I may cast in this fall's presidential election will be for one purpose only  - to defeat Trump.  A vote for a third party candidate may do so,  but I am enough of a student of history to know that when there are three or more candidates,  an opportunity is created for a victor to emerge with only a plurality.  Think Hitler in 1933.   I will cast my vote with an eye to the polls in Pennsylvania.   If the outcome seems clear,  I will vote third party.  If the race is close,  I will vote for HRC solely for the purpose of defeating Trump.   The lesser of two evils is still evil, of course, and I recognize that.  But our greatest generation fought fascism,  and like them I will not spit the bit.     

[EdinVA]

You're right AbaraXas - in all likelihood,  I'll vote third party for President (the main reason I will vote this fall is to re-elect Pat Toomey).   I hope a viable third party challenger emerges - to my way of thinking,  the conservative movement will be dead unless it rejects Trumpism's evil brew of nativism, xenophobia and white nationalism.   Trumpism is morally contemptable, and must be nipped in the bud no matter the short term cost.

Let me be clear - any vote I may cast in this fall's presidential election will be for one purpose only  - to defeat Trump.  A vote for a third party candidate may do so,  but I am enough of a student of history to know that when there are three or more candidates,  an opportunity is created for a victor to emerge with only a plurality.  Think Hitler in 1933.   I will cast my vote with an eye to the polls in Pennsylvania.   If the outcome seems clear,  I will vote third party.  If the race is close,  I will vote for HRC solely for the purpose of defeating Trump.   The lesser of two evils is still evil, of course, and I recognize that.  But our greatest generation fought fascism,  and like them I will not spit the bit.     

Keep in mind, you reap what you sow...
And for those who chose not to vote, give up their right to complain.

[Jazzhead]

If healthcare is not mandated for everyone, then why have it? 

If pre-existing conditions have to be covered, just wait til you get sick and stick it to the insurance company.

No, if pre-existing conditions have to be covered, then a mandate is necessary.

That's right, sink.   You can't extend health insurance to those with pre-existing medical conditions without (i) an individual coverage mandate or (ii) single payer.    Trump, to the extent anyone can glean his views,  appears to support single payer - which is exactly what extending Medicaid to the sick represents.  Keep in mind that few folks in their right mind would choose Medicaid voluntarily - many of the best doctors don't even accept Medicaid patients.

There is value in fostering the competition of a private insurance system.   ObamaCare fails to do that, but that's not because of the individual mandate.  The individual mandate is just about the only aspect of ObamaCare that I support as a conservative.   You simply cannot extend guaranteed issue to the sick without a large enough pool of the healthy to subsidize their costs.   Tort reform?   That can help, but only on the margins.   "Competition across state lines"?   That can help, but again, only on the margins (and remember that the states have traditionally regulated insurance,  so denying that regulatory authority to the states in favor of increased federal power hardly strikes me as "conservative").

No,  the conservative solution to the access issue is an individual mandate coupled with a truly competitive insurance market.    ObamaCare's failing is not the mandate, but rather its usurpation of competition.     

[Jazzhead]

Keep in mind, you reap what you sow...
And for those who chose not to vote, give up their right to complain.

I will not choose not to vote, Ed.   What folks are condemning me for is my view that, forced to make a choice, Trump's a worse evil than Clinton.   

He's far worse.  As Kevin Madden a GOP operative, told the Washington Post on February 28,  "For many Republicans,  Trump is more than a political choice.  It is a litmus test for character."
   

[Relic]

I will not choose not to vote, Ed.   What folks are condemning me for is my view that, forced to make a choice, Trump's a worse evil than Clinton.   

He's far worse.  As Kevin Madden a GOP operative, told the Washington Post on February 28,  "For many Republicans,  Trump is more than a political choice.  It is a litmus test for character."
 

Anyone who can look at Vince Foster's grave and tell me Benghazi Hillary is a better choice than Donald Trump is mentally ill. Please seek counseling.

[GAJohnnie]

Maybe if the “Conservative media” dropped these sort of emotional personal attack drama queen posting and tried to make a fact based rational argument FOR their candidate, their candidate might have better success at the voting booth.

[Jazzhead]

Anyone who can look at Vince Foster's grave and tell me Benghazi Hillary is a better choice than Donald Trump is mentally ill. Please seek counseling.

She's an absolutely terrible choice, relic.  But that doesn't mean Trump wouldn't be worse.   You seem to be saying I should make no choice at all.  That's a cop-out. 

[GAJohnnie]

Anyone who can look at Vince Foster's grave and tell me Benghazi Hillary is a better choice than Donald Trump is mentally ill. Please seek counseling.

t.

On Taxes, Immigration, Trade, 2nd Amendment and wanting the USA to be Great Conservatives share an 80% agreement rate with Trump. To claim they would rather get 100% of what they claim to loath with Clinton rather then 80% of what they want with Trump is a statement of ego and spite, not reason

It is a childish temper-trantrum. not an act of "principal" or "reason". It the poltical equivalent of a child taking their ball and going home because they are losing a game.