Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision

[truth_seeker]

No one knew it would be called "ISIS" but the planners knew this was a major upheaval for Iraq and anything could happen.  With a flip of a switch they changed the power structure within Iraq.  If these strategic wizards did not know that the resulting chaos would give rise to an "ISIS", then shame on them.

Colin Powell warned. His doctrine (taken from Weinberger) was to use "Overwhelming Force" but in 2003 we did NOT do that. We used the minimum force, and took a huge risk it would turn out okay.

At first it seemed okay, because the locals simply faded back into temporary obscurity. But then they came out and we did NOT have sufficient troop numbers to occupy, pacify and maintain military control.

Of course Powell had also warned "you break it, you own it" when he initially argued for greater troop counts for the invasion.

But part of being a "true conservative" is dismissing Powell, as "affirmative action," etc. which shows you have learned to parrot back what you saw somebody else write and get a high five for last time around.

The entire fiasco comes from failing to heed Powell. He basically said if you do the thing, do it adequately to guarantee success. We didn't and if failed. Next comes "surge" which requires a PhD, to in effect try to remedy the initial shortfall of troop counts. That works temporarily.

After 14 and 12 years respectively, how much of Afghanistan and Iraq does the national military control, versus not control? 

[Carling]

Are you sure about this?  I remember the Iraqi's really wanting the US out--especially Maliki--who was taking some real political heat.  The agreement called for a two-step withdrawal, first from the cities in 2009 and then from the rest of Iraq in 2011.  There were no contingency plans for situational changes in the agreement, that I am aware of.  If there were, please point me to that information---I would be interested in reading more on this.

As for the rise of ISIS--here's where the world misses Saddam Hussein.  Although a Sunni, he was a secular dictator and would never have permitted ISIS to flourish and threaten his power.  Saddam left behind a formidable power vacuum.

.
Wrong.

I've already posted how Iraq wanted troops.  It was a precarious position for Maliki, but it was Obama who pulled out of negotiations and made the decision to withdraw.

Blaming Bush for Obama withdrawing troops is a leftist talking point to defend Obama, and simply is untrue.

It's sad to see so many posters here accept this lie as truth.

[Carling]

No one knew it would be called "ISIS" but the planners knew this was a major upheaval for Iraq and anything could happen.  With a flip of a switch they changed the power structure within Iraq.  If these strategic wizards did not know that the resulting chaos would give rise to an "ISIS", then shame on them.

The instability started when Obama made the decision to leave, which created a power vacuum.  The Bush blaming by an Isreal-hater (RiV) and a lying liberal (Dexter) is something I never thought I'd see on this board.

Maybe it's time for me to move on to a new community, because  with the refusal to blame Obama for anything in the Middle East, even something so basic as arming ISIS to fight Assad, or the failed "Arab Spring," I may as well be posting on DailyKos.

[EC]

Dex, that is bleep uncalled for.

[libertybele]

It's hard to rewrite history on the "what if's".  Powell had recommended to Bush Sr., during the first Gulf War that we go all the way into Bagdhad.  Perhaps had he listened, the bombing of the USS Cole wouldn't have occurred, Bin Laden and Al Qaeda may have not emerged so strongly and  perhaps the attack on 9-11 would have never happened.

Who knows why our past presidents have ignored the advice from their military advisers and generals.

Obama was told numerous times by generals and other military advisers what would happen if we withdrew our troops from the Middle East too soon.  He ignored them for his own political gain and disregarded the imminent threat to this country in order to get re-elected.  Obviously we are seeing the result of his arrogance.

[EdinVA]

It's hard to rewrite history on the "what if's".  Powell had recommended to Bush Sr., during the first Gulf War that we go all the way into Bagdhad.  Perhaps had he listened, the bombing of the USS Cole wouldn't have occurred, Bin Laden and Al Qaeda may have not emerged so strongly and  perhaps the attack on 9-11 would have never happened.

Who knows why our past presidents have ignored the advice from their military advisers and generals.

Obama was told numerous times by generals and other military advisers what would happen if we withdrew our troops from the Middle East too soon.  He ignored them for his own political gain and disregarded the imminent threat to this country in order to get re-elected.  Obviously we are seeing the result of his arrogance.

[Godzilla]

His agreement was dependent on the situation in Iraq.  He would never have pulled all our troops out of the country that his troops had bled and died to liberate and allowed their sacrifice to be lost.

What you don't understand is that Bush loved his country and the troops, and Obama hates both.  What you also don't understand is that the rest of the world (other than leftist ideologues) respected the US under Bush (including Iraq). 

The explosion of ISIS in Iraq lies squarely on the shoulders of the politically driven ideologue, Barack Obama.

Peacenik ideology makes people stupid.  Bush, unlike Obama, wasn't stupid.

Maliki was deadset against signing a SOFA agreement (Status Of Forces Agreement) ensuring US forces would be held to UCMJ jurisdiction instead of the Iraqi courts.  We have never, in our entire history, ever placed troops in a country subject to their laws.

Without a SOFA, we weren't going to station troops in Iraq after they asked us to leave.

[Carling]

Maliki was deadset against signing a SOFA agreement (Status Of Forces Agreement) ensuring US forces would be held to UCMJ jurisdiction instead of the Iraqi courts.  We have never, in our entire history, ever placed troops in a country subject to their laws.

Without a SOFA, we weren't going to station troops in Iraq after they asked us to leave.

As I posted, it was precarious for Maliki, but he was also heeding the advice of he US military and was negotiating for an extension.  Obama killed those negotiations, yet he allow the U.S. to be pooped on by Iran?  What a ridiculous assumption.  Obama's reasoning to defy his military leadership was 100% for political gain, yet we have posters blaming Bush for that disastrous decision. 

[Carling]

Biden thought Maliki would extend SOFA.  Isn't revisionist leftist history fun?


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-we-stuck-with-maliki--and-lost-iraq/2014/07/03/0dd6a8a4-f7ec-11e3-a606-946fd632f9f1_story.html


On Sept. 1, 2010, Vice President Biden was in Baghdad for the change-of-command ceremony that would see the departure of Gen. Ray Odierno and the arrival of Gen. Lloyd Austin as commander of U.S. forces. That night, at a dinner at the ambassador’s residence that included Biden, his staff, the generals and senior embassy officials, I made a brief but impassioned argument against Maliki and for the need to respect the constitutional process. But the vice president said Maliki was the only option. Indeed, the following month he would tell top U.S. officials, “I’ll bet you my vice presidency Maliki will extend the SOFA,” referring to the status-of-forces agreement that would allow U.S. troops to remain in Iraq past 2011.

[Godzilla]

As I posted, it was precarious for Maliki, but he was also heeding the advice of he US military and was negotiating for an extension.  Obama killed those negotiations, yet he allow the U.S. to be pooped on by Iran?  What a ridiculous assumption.  Obama's reasoning to defy his military leadership was 100% for political gain, yet we have posters blaming Bush for that disastrous decision.

Maliki was against the SOFA yet continued negotiating for a 'better deal'.  I viewed the negotiation halt as a way for the US to have judged Maliki's sincerity about wanting a deal.  Had he been serious, he'd have asked us to return to the table... offering a better deal.

But he didn't... telling me that he was never really serious about wanting us to stay.

[Carling]

Maliki was against the SOFA yet continued negotiating for a 'better deal'.  I viewed the negotiation halt as a way for the US to have judged Maliki's sincerity about wanting a deal.  Had he been serious, he'd have asked us to return to the table... offering a better deal.

But he didn't... telling me that he was never really serious about wanting us to stay.

Biden says otherwise.  Take your leftist lies elsewhere, troll.

[Dexter]

Biden says otherwise.  Take your leftist lies elsewhere, troll.

People like you perpetuate the divide that will eventually destroy the GOP.

[Carling]

People like you perpetuate the divide that will eventually destroy the GOP.

Coming from a lying liberal, I'll take that as a compliment.  Are you still sticking to your lie that the 2011 withdrawal was non-negotiable, troll?  We have you and Godzilla as leftists, and RiV who has posted that he would vote for HRC over many GOP candidates.

Your opinions mean nothing to me, and you should probably concentrate on your own party.

[Dexter]

Are you still sticking to your lie that the 2011 withdrawal was non-negotiable, troll?

Would you mind showing me where I said it was non-negotiable? All I said is Bush laid out the plans that led to the eventual pullout.

[Godzilla]

Coming from a lying liberal, I'll take that as a compliment.  Are you still sticking to your lie that the 2011 withdrawal was non-negotiable, troll?  We have you and Godzilla as leftists, and RiV who has posted that he would vote for HRC over many GOP candidates.

Your opinions mean nothing to me.

Been voting Republican since I could vote (Dole in 1996).

And now I'm a liberal.  I guess I'll need to stop voting Republican now. 

[Carling]

Bush made an agreement with the Iraqi government and Obama honored that agreement. It was Bush's idea, meaning Bush would have removed our troops too.

This is a 100% WAG.  Bush would have listened to his military advisers.  Blaming Bush for Obama's decision to withdraw is what a sikpleton would do.  Again, grow up, and place the blame on the guy who ended negotiations and pulled out all troops.  Not "well Bush would have done it too," which is an unknown and likely inaccurate.  Bush actually wanted to win that war.  It's funny how Obama took credit for pulling out troops, then when sh*t hit the fan, he and the rest of you liberals shift the "credit" to Bush.  It's childish, and liberals are child-like in their views.

[Carling]

Been voting Republican since I could vote (Dole in 1996).

And now I'm a liberal.  I guess I'll need to stop voting Republican now.

You're dead wrong on this issue, and you're using liberal talking points.

If the shoe fits...

[Dexter]

This is a 100% WAG.  Bush would have listened to his military advisers.  Blaming Bush for Obama's decision to withdraw is what a sikpleton would do.  Again, grow up, and place the blame on the guy who ended negotiations and pulled out all troops.  Not "well Bush would have done it too," which is an unknown and likely inaccurate.  Bush actually wanted to win that war.  It's funny how Obama took credit for pulling out troops, then when sh*t hit the fan, he and the rest of you liberals shift the "credit" to Bush.  It's childish, and liberals are child-like in their views.

Are you going to show me where I said it was non-negotiable, troll?

[Carling]

Are you going to show me where I said it was non-negotiable, troll?

Are you going to show me where Bush would have pulled all troops out of Iraq, in a complete refutation of his military leadership, troll?

[Dexter]

Are you going to show me where Bush would have pulled all troops out of Iraq, in a complete refutation of his military leadership, troll?

Unlike you I have evidence that backs up my claim. Bush was interested in pulling out of Iraq. That is evidenced by the agreement he made. I guess we'll never know for sure because he wasn't in office in 2011, but I believe he would have done the same thing Obama did.

[Godzilla]

You're dead wrong on this issue, and you're using liberal talking points.

If the shoe fits...

I'm active-duty Air Force and have been in 19 years.  I've been deployed and had 6 tours in South Korea.  SOFAs are a BIG DEAL for the troops, as if something wrong happens (car accident, angry locals), you don't want the local police arresting you.

So, liberal talking point, my @ss!

Why don't you get over there and do something.

[Dexter]

Why don't you get over there and do something.

Probably because he's the kind of coward that would rather have other people die for his paranoia.

[Carling]

Obama went against the advice of the Pentagon and ended negotiations.

Biden was willing to bet his office on Maliki extending SOFA, which would have meant troops stay and there is no power vacuum.

Where am I wrong, and if Obama was merely following Bush's wishes, why did Barry take credit for it, troll?

[musiclady]

Are you sure about this?  I remember the Iraqi's really wanting the US out--especially Maliki--who was taking some real political heat.  The agreement called for a two-step withdrawal, first from the cities in 2009 and then from the rest of Iraq in 2011.  There were no contingency plans for situational changes in the agreement, that I am aware of.  If there were, please point me to that information---I would be interested in reading more on this.

As for the rise of ISIS--here's where the world misses Saddam Hussein.  Although a Sunni, he was a secular dictator and would never have permitted ISIS to flourish and threaten his power.  Saddam left behind a formidable power vacuum.

Although this point has already successfully been refuted, I will reiterate that Saddam Hussein was a terrorist who supported terrorism, especially against Israel.

As for the comparison between what Bush would have done and what Obama did, all it takes to understand the difference is a rudimentary understanding of both men, their view of America, their history of military leadership, their differing levels of respect for the military, and their understanding that there is such a thing as evil, and that it resides in the terrorism in the ME.

Bush had plans to withdraw, but those plans never included abandoning Iraq to terror.  (That's what the surge was all about, if you have forgotten.  It was to rectify the mistakes made in not having a strategy for the time following the removal of terrorist Saddam.

If you have listened at all to Dick and Liz Cheney in their interviews or articles, you KNOW that Iraq would not have been abandoned under Bush-Cheney as it has been under Obama, the anti-American Muslim sympathizer.

I agree with Carling.

The blaming of Bush for Obama's horrific Iraq decision to withdraw every American troop is a leftist talking point, and it's very disappointing to see it here on what is supposed to be a right of center board.

[Dexter]

why did Barry take credit for it, troll?

Probably because he's a politician and at the time he thought it would make him look good.