Ukraine Situation Report: M109 Paladins Are Proving Too Wily For Russian Gunners

[rangerrebew]

Ukraine Situation Report: M109 Paladins Are Proving Too Wily For Russian Gunners
With its ability to ‘shoot-and-scoot,’ Paladin self-propelled Howitzers are keeping enemies pinned down and surviving to fight another day.

BY
HOWARD ALTMAN
|
PUBLISHED SEP 18, 2023 8:49 PM EDT
Paladin Ukraine
 
 
U.S.-donated M109 A6 Paladin self-propelled howitzers have played a big role in Ukraine's counteroffensive push south in the Robotyne-Verbove salient, according to the front line troops. The Paladin's ability to rapidly reposition after firing has made them a vexing challenge for Russian artillery troops.


Members of Ukraine's 47th Separate Mechanized Brigade, which has taken part in the heaviest fighting in Zaporizhzhia Oblast, say the Paladins, along with donated Leopard 2A6 tanks, have helped their forces breach Russia's dense defensive lines.


The U.S. promised Ukraine 18 Paladins in January. Ukraine has also receive them from Italy, Lativa, Norway and the U.K. in a private purchase arrangement.

Though the Paladin can fire standard 155mm howitzer shells with a range up to 24 kilometers, the Ukrainians are using the weapons to hit targets at less than 10 km, according to members of the 47th, in an interview with Ukraine’s United24 Media news outlet.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-situation-report-m109-paladins-are-proving-too-wily-for-russian-gunners

[PeteS in CA]

Ukrainians are also firing cluster munitions from their M109s, which pretty much frustrate Russian counterattacks by wiping out a large % of the troops massed for a counterattack.

[Kamaji]

[jafo2010]

Nothing good in news here.  We are talking about a nuclear nation, the largest nuclear nation, and the huge question remains when do they move from conventional to nuclear weapons?  Again, it is not if but when.

This game we are playing in Ukraine is suicidal.  We are marching our way to global thermonuclear annihilation.

This is proof positive that Biden is way over his head for knowing how to deal with this situation sanely.  The proof of this insanity may well be 3 - 7 billion dead, and a planet largely destroyed for the vast majority of species that currently reside upon it.

Anyone pleased with the way this is unfolding is a fool.  What I see is the USA shelling our hundreds of billions funding a war with no accountability with a nation that is the king of nuclear.  If you did not see the news yesterday, the Clintons are lining up to get their fair share of the booty in Ukraine.  I am sure Wrecking Ball Joe is getting the BIG GUY 10% deposited in some offshore account, or 100 offshore accounts, and the entire Democommie conspiratorial traitorous cabal.

[Kamaji]

Nothing good in news here.  We are talking about a nuclear nation, the largest nuclear nation, and the huge question remains when do they move from conventional to nuclear weapons?  Again, it is not if but when.

This game we are playing in Ukraine is suicidal.  We are marching our way to global thermonuclear annihilation.

This is proof positive that Biden is way over his head for knowing how to deal with this situation sanely.  The proof of this insanity may well be 3 - 7 billion dead, and a planet largely destroyed for the vast majority of species that currently reside upon it.

Anyone pleased with the way this is unfolding is a fool.  What I see is the USA shelling our hundreds of billions funding a war with no accountability with a nation that is the king of nuclear.  If you did not see the news yesterday, the Clintons are lining up to get their fair share of the booty in Ukraine.  I am sure Wrecking Ball Joe is getting the BIG GUY 10% deposited in some offshore account, or 100 offshore accounts, and the entire Democommie conspiratorial traitorous cabal.

Nonsense.

[PeteS in CA]

So, where, in Putin's invasions to rebuild the Soviet empire should, in your view @jafo2010, the do-not-cross line be? Moldova? Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania? Romania? Poland? Slovakia and the Czech Republic? Anywhere?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Nothing good in news here.  We are talking about a nuclear nation, the largest nuclear nation, and the huge question remains when do they move from conventional to nuclear weapons?  Again, it is not if but when.

No, it isn't.  Just ask yourself why they didn't use them before having much of their army already wrecked in Ukraine.

First, just take a look at a map. There is no way for Russia to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine - even so-called "tactical" nukes - without the effects bleeding over into neighboring countries, including Russia itself.  They'd be killing a lot of ethnic Russians.

Second, the Russians cannot be sure of the reaction from the West if it were to use such weapons.  So it is impossible for them to calculate the cost-benefit ratio.

Third, the Russians cannot be sure of the reaction of the rest of the world because everyone is terrified of nuclear weapons.  It's almost certain that China, India, and the rest of the world would truly condemn it and cut off cooperation with Moscow.

This game we are playing in Ukraine is suicidal.  We are marching our way to global thermonuclear annihilation.

Pure Russian propaganda that they've been pushing ever since the invasion failed in its initial goal of conquering the country.  If you can't beat 'em, scare 'em.

Yet, despite losing hundreds of thousands of troops, ships, airplanes, etc., they never did it.  Why?  I mean, if they were willing to use nuclear weapons, wouldn't have made far more sense to do it before they sustained all those massive losses?

The "we're all heading for nuclear annihilation crowd" is just a mass consumption version of Doug MacGregor's endless series of predictions that Ukraine will fall within the week.  It's just Russia trying to force a capitulation via propaganda that it cannot win on the battlefield.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

So, where, in Putin's invasions to rebuild the Soviet empire should, in your view @jafo2010, should the do-not-cross line be? Moldova? Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania? Romania? Poland? Slovakia and the Czech Republic? Anywhere?

He's basically saying we should pay a ransom demand before they've even taken a hostage.  That's a WW2-era France level of surrender-monkey.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Ukrainians are also firing cluster munitions from their M109s, which pretty much frustrate Russian counterattacks by wiping out a large % of the troops massed for a counterattack.

Russian counter battery fire has never been good enough to hit self-propelled artillery that shoots and scoots properly.  I can't imagine how much worse it is now that it has been degraded by a year and a half of war.

And you're right about the impact of those cluster musicians/DPICM rounds.   The Paladin is the perfect weapon system for the employment of those rounds because those rounds multiply the impact of a very effective weapon system of which the Ukrainians only have a limited number.

[jafo2010]

PeteS in CA...
So, where, in Putin's invasions to rebuild the Soviet empire should, in your view @jafo2010, the do-not-cross line be? Moldova? Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania? Romania? Poland? Slovakia and the Czech Republic? Anywhere?

The USA and its fellow nations violated an agreement struck in the early 90s when the USSR dissolved.  We agreed not to march east and incorporate those former USSR nations into NATO.  We violated that agreement.  To Russians, it is not about NATO protecting their fellow nations from Russia, it is encroachment on Russia for the future attack upon Russia itself.  Now I do not agree with their thinking, but it was a concern back in the 90s, and we agreed to not encroach them.  We broke that agreement.

Facts, you should try understanding them.  Russia seizes the Crimea, and Obama did not so much as lift a finger in opposition.  Neither did the nations of NATO at the time.

I believe 18 of the former nations controlled or part of the former USSR have now joined NATO.  But Ukraine did not. 

I worked with 35 Ukrainians on a system development effort back in 2014, they came to the states for a Requirements phase for the project, and in talking about NATO and Russia with them, they were all in agreement they did not want to be a part of NATO, and they wanted no involvement with Russia either.

Ukraine has NEVER been an ally of the USA.  NEVER!!!  Our media is dishonest completely on this score.

So why should we squander our treasury on this nation?  Just because Russia would seize Ukraine does not mean they would attack nations part of NATO.   I do not see that happening.  We have troops on the ground in Ukraine right f***ing now.  Supposed advisors, just like f***ing Vietnam.

You really think it is smart going down the path we are on?  Were you even born when Vietnam went down?  Vietnam went from a few advisors to 500,000+ American troops on the ground.  And if Russia gets their *ss solidly kicked in Ukraine, you think Putin would not deploy one or more nuclear weapons?  He has repeatedly indicated he would do so.  Suppose he does, what does the USA and NATO do next, provide Ukraine with nuclear weapons?  Seriously, you have no idea what you are stepping into.

At any given time, there are a dozen or more wars happening across the globe, we do not jump into all those conflicts.  We have no business in Ukraine, and Putin is no Hitler.  But he does have one thing Hitler never had, tens of thousands of nuclear weapons.  If you cannot see how that changes the nature of this war, well, I reserve my further opinion.

[jafo2010]

Maj. Bill Martin...
First, just take a look at a map. There is no way for Russia to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine - even so-called "tactical" nukes - without the effects bleeding over into neighboring countries, including Russia itself.  They'd be killing a lot of ethnic Russians.

Second, the Russians cannot be sure of the reaction from the West if it were to use such weapons.  So it is impossible for them to calculate the cost-benefit ratio.

Third, the Russians cannot be sure of the reaction of the rest of the world because everyone is terrified of nuclear weapons.  It's almost certain that China, India, and the rest of the world would truly condemn it and cut off cooperation with Moscow.

Regarding Point 1, when did Putin and his team ever give a crap about Russian lives let alone people of other nations?  If they were to deploy nuclear weapons, even tactical nuclear weapons, they would blame NATO for nuclear weapons being used, they would not accept that responsibility.  Again Putin has during his entire reign proven not to care about Russian life, the Kursk, and his refusal for help from the US or Britain; the elementary school in Beslan, with so many innocents killed by Russian soldiers; and the ballet theater I believe in Moscow taken by terrorists, and again Russian forces gassing almost 200 people to death.

Point 2...reaction by west...They would have to calculate our providing nuclear weapons to Ukraine or NATO's direct deployment of nuclear devices itself.  Or they might bet we just do nothing, for if we arrange a nuclear deployment on Russia, what is to stop it escalating into a full blown nuclear exchange?

China condemning Russia.  I doubt it.  They haven't done so as yet.  They have become more allied, and you can bet if Russia does deploy nuclear weapons, it is with the full agreement of China.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Regarding Point 1, when did Putin and his team ever give a crap about Russian lives let alone people of other nations?  If they were to deploy nuclear weapons, even tactical nuclear weapons, they would blame NATO for nuclear weapons being used, they would not accept that responsibility.

They actually do care about ethnic Russian lives, and the Russian people will care even more.  That's why they've tried to conscript as few ethnic Russians as possible.  And nobody is going to believe that the West used nukes against Ukrainian troops.  That isn't something that is going to go away quickly, either.  It is going to be the permanent poisoning of the ground and water in both Ukraine and Russia, and perhaps in some other nations as well.  How will the Turks react to that?  How will Belarus react?  That's kind of a sensitive topic over there after the whole Chernobyl thing....

Point 2...reaction by west...They would have to calculate our providing nuclear weapons to Ukraine or NATO's direct deployment of nuclear devices itself.  Or they might bet we just do nothing, for if we arrange a nuclear deployment on Russia, what is to stop it escalating into a full blown nuclear exchange?

They don't know how we'd react -- that's the point.  At the barest minimum, you're likely talking about Russian expulsion from every international organization in existence, and a hard embargo.  You'd also like see other nations surrounding Russia doing their best to make military alliances with any nuclear power that will have them - China, India, Iran, etc..  Russia would turn itself into an international pariah overnight, and the only one the Russian people could blame for this would be Putin himself.

China condemning Russia.  I doubt it.  They haven't done so as yet.  They have become more allied, and you can bet if Russia does deploy nuclear weapons, it is with the full agreement of China.

Well sure, but that's begging the question.  There is absolutely no way in hell China would want Russia to open the Pandora's Box of using nuclear weapons.  China, and Xi, are about business and economic growth.  A first-use of nuclear weapons would have almost unimaginable negative consequences for world trade.  There's no way in hell China would ever want that, so if you believe China's assent is required...that ain't going to happen.

Much less be a question of "when not if", as you claimed.

[PeteS in CA]

The USA and its fellow nations violated an agreement struck in the early 90s when the USSR dissolved.  We agreed not to march east and incorporate those former USSR nations into NATO.  We violated that agreement.  To Russians, it is not about NATO protecting their fellow nations from Russia, it is encroachment on Russia for the future attack upon Russia itself.  Now I do not agree with their thinking, but it was a concern back in the 90s, and we agreed to not encroach them.  We broke that agreement.
....

1. You seriously believe Russia was justified to invade, twice, Ukraine, a sovereign country?

2. Try actually answering my question:

So, where, in Putin's invasions to rebuild the Soviet empire should, in your view @jafo2010, the do-not-cross line be? Moldova? Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania? Romania? Poland? Slovakia and the Czech Republic? Anywhere?

[jafo2010]

PeteS in CA..
1. You seriously believe Russia was justified to invade, twice, Ukraine, a sovereign country?

2. Try actually answering my question:

Quote
So, where, in Putin's invasions to rebuild the Soviet empire should, in your view @jafo2010, the do-not-cross line be? Moldova? Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania? Romania? Poland? Slovakia and the Czech Republic? Anywhere?

Pete,

Where did you get that I said Russia was justified to attack Ukraine?  Are you stoned or drunk on your *ss?   Russia attacked Ukraine in my belief with zero provocation.  Their attack is equally bad to the attack by Hitler on Poland in 1939.  Ukraine was never a threat.  And whether Ukraine was abusing Russian heritage folks as Putin claims, that still does not warrant the actions he has undertaken. 

At no time did he present a complaint to the United Nations.  Being on the Security Council, if Russia had a legitimate complaint against the Ukraine, I believe they would have filed a complaint at the UN.  There was no complaint filed.  That is because everything about what Russia is doing is abusive and wrong.  Downright evil.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE HAVE TO FUND THEIR WAR, FUND THEIR RETIREMENT PROGRAMS, AND PAY OFF HOW MANY STINKING CORRUPT POLITICIANS IN THE USA AND UKRAINE?  NO ACCOUNTABILITY.  IT IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!!

To answer your question, the following:  Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, Romania, Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic, they are all members of NATO.  If they get attacked, we are obligated to defend them.  I see no way Putin attacks any of these nations. As far as Moldova is concerned, based on what I know, Russia still has a foot on Moldova, WHICH LIKE UKRAINE IS NOT PART OF NATO, so taking it over would not be a big deal for they have a footprint there already.  Much like Belarus, if Putin took over Belarus, the people would not fight like Ukraine, and the world would not be incensed over it.

You assume too much.  Attacking a non NATO nation is NOT the same as attacking a member state of NATO.  Frankly, I feel for the Ukrainian people, but I do NOT see that they are our responsibility.  Not in dollars or blood.

You know why Obama did not do anything when Russia seized the Crimea?  Russia had five military bases on Crimea.  Their operations took up almost all of the Crimea with those bases.  Most of the people in the Crimea owed their allegiance to Russia and not Ukraine.

What this war has proven is that Russia is a paper tiger.  They thought they had a ten day war on their hands to seize all of Ukraine, and they did not expect to receive the resistance they have.  And I do not think they expected NATO nations to supply Ukraine as we are.   Ukrainians are noted for being fierce fighters, and Putin forgot that, and he should have known.

According to sources I have, Russia has exhausted much of their mechanized ranks.  And NATO continues to supply Ukraine with higher levels of radar, and sophisticated missiles, and now it will be more difficult for Russia to use their air force.  Slowly, the worm is turning.  But if you think Putin gives one healthy BM about the Russians dying in Ukraine, you are gravely mistaken.  He cares not for any of them.  He has a new crop of 18 year olds coming every year.  He will feed millions into the meat grinder.  A friend with hundreds of contacts in Ukraine claims Russia has lost 250,000 men+ already.  The Russian people are NOT questioning what their country is doing in Ukraine.  Most support Putin.  I know of people who have lost brothers in Russia in the war, and they think of them as patriots, and not meat fed to the grinder with no STINKING OBJECTIVE, like Vietnam.

As long as Putin remains leader of Russia, this war continues.  Heck, the ruble is 96 rubles to 1 dollar.  Not good for the people, but they barely say a peep.  Russia is a pariah...NOW...and yet the people still support Putin.  They do not have the freedom to think let alone any other kinds of freedom. 

And Trump's idiotic statement, I will end this war in 24 hours...poppycock.  I will say, had he gotten his 2nd term, this war would not exist, and discussions of China attacking Taiwan would not be happening either.  But we have dead from the neck up Biden to lead the free world.

God help the world!!!

[jafo2010]

Maj. Bill Martin...
Quote from: jafo2010 on September 20, 2023, 10:37:06 pm
Regarding Point 1, when did Putin and his team ever give a crap about Russian lives let alone people of other nations?  If they were to deploy nuclear weapons, even tactical nuclear weapons, they would blame NATO for nuclear weapons being used, they would not accept that responsibility.

They actually do care about ethnic Russian lives, and the Russian people will care even more.  That's why they've tried to conscript as few ethnic Russians as possible.  And nobody is going to believe that the West used nukes against Ukrainian troops.  That isn't something that is going to go away quickly, either.  It is going to be the permanent poisoning of the ground and water in both Ukraine and Russia, and perhaps in some other nations as well.  How will the Turks react to that?  How will Belarus react?  That's kind of a sensitive topic over there after the whole Chernobyl thing....

The care of ethnic Russians is pure propaganda.  If Putin does not care about Russians in Russia, he surely does not care about Russians in Ukraine.  All a big fat lie.  But it is the kind of propaganda to get folks riled up, just as when Hitler attacked Poland and blamed them for attacking Germany first.  all poppycock.  And I don't think Putin would care much about fallout, or ruining ground in Ukraine for 1,000 years.  Putin is an amoral type of man that does not possess those sentiments.  You are using your rational mindset to explain Putin, and he does not think like you, me or most in the western world.

Quote
Point 2...reaction by west...They would have to calculate our providing nuclear weapons to Ukraine or NATO's direct deployment of nuclear devices itself.  Or they might bet we just do nothing, for if we arrange a nuclear deployment on Russia, what is to stop it escalating into a full blown nuclear exchange?

They don't know how we'd react -- that's the point.  At the barest minimum, you're likely talking about Russian expulsion from every international organization in existence, and a hard embargo.  You'd also like see other nations surrounding Russia doing their best to make military alliances with any nuclear power that will have them - China, India, Iran, etc..  Russia would turn itself into an international pariah overnight, and the only one the Russian people could blame for this would be Putin himself.

Russia is largely a pariah, and the Russian people still support Putin.  I even know folks here in the states, working for the federal government, former Russian nationals, and they think Putin is righteous.  Now, how stupid is that?  You may or may not know, all airlines in Europe and airports are closed to Russia.  The primary way in and out of Russia is through Turkey.  Despite all the sanctions against Russia, life goes on there, and the sanctions have had little to no impact on the people of Russia.  Much of the sanctions have been directed at the oligarchs, and with billions, they do not care either really.  They are getting by just fine, the ones that Putin hasn't hit yet, that is.  Anyone steps out of line, they get whacked.  If anything, Putin is consolidating his power.


Quote
China condemning Russia.  I doubt it.  They haven't done so as yet.  They have become more allied, and you can bet if Russia does deploy nuclear weapons, it is with the full agreement of China.

Well sure, but that's begging the question.  There is absolutely no way in hell China would want Russia to open the Pandora's Box of using nuclear weapons.  China, and Xi, are about business and economic growth.  A first-use of nuclear weapons would have almost unimaginable negative consequences for world trade.  There's no way in hell China would ever want that, so if you believe China's assent is required...that ain't going to happen.

What makes you think China would not approve?  I think China would welcome a confrontation between Russia and the USA/NATO.  They can sit on the sidelines and watch mostly.  Even with nuclear weapons.  Just like in the book/movie Sum of All Fears by Clancy, it would be very easy to escalate to the use of nuclear devices.

Much less be a question of "when not if", as you claimed.  It is my humble belief that the world is building to a cataclysmic period in time like the late 30s and 40s of the last century.  Too many super rich powerful people want to see the global population destroyed by any means and taken down to 50 - 500 million.  They believe by doing so they are righteous and saving the planet.  I think the probability is high for them getting exactly what they want by 2050.