Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts

[HoustonSam]

Om my gosh Pete, stop.  You cannot generate energy from nothing.  The generator tied to wheels turning cannot generator more power that whatever is making the wheels turn.

Every mechanical and electrical system has power losses.  Anything added to the load/torque that takes power to make power is a net loss.

I don't think @sneakypete is arguing for perpetual motion, that the wheels turning can keep the wheels turning; I think he's just suggesting that some wasted energy can be captured.  @thackney I believe the reality is that using the wheels to generate additional power would draw more additional energy out of the battery than the wheel-generators would put back in.

[Potluck]

And the weight of the generator itself needs consideration

[Potluck]

Anyway,
There is a prospect gaining support and that’s switching out a depleted battery with a charged one to eliminate charge times. But again, the lithium shortage raises it’s ugly head.

[HoustonSam]

Anyway,
There is a prospect gaining support and that’s switching out a depleted battery with a charged one to eliminate charge times. But again, the lithium shortage raises it’s ugly head.

IMO this, more than anything else, makes the entire vision of mass conversion to electric transportation merely an hallucination.  Regardless of what governments or automakers say, it won't happen because it cannot happen.

[Potluck]

IMO this, more than anything else, makes the entire vision of mass conversion to electric transportation merely an hallucination.  Regardless of what governments or automakers say, it won't happen because it cannot happen.

I work for a gas detection manufacturer and we are feeling the crunch for lithium ion batteries.  Both solar and wind need batteries for when the sun doesn’t shine and the wind doesn’t blow. Add to that batteries don’t last forever and need replaced much like a battery in most cars.

[thackney]

I don't think @sneakypete is arguing for perpetual motion, that the wheels turning can keep the wheels turning; I think he's just suggesting that some wasted energy can be captured.  @thackney I believe the reality is that using the wheels to generate additional power would draw more additional energy out of the battery than the wheel-generators would put back in.

There is no "wasted" energy to recover.  Just the speed of the rotation is not the same as power.  Every bit of power the generator would "recover" would be added torque to the wheels that has to be supplied by the drive wheels and its source of power.

I hear this argument a lot from people how don't understand the principles of power and energy.  If just making it go round was enough and recovery power from a generator did not add load, I could put a 2 cc engine on a 100 MW generator.

Generators make the magnetic field that induces current in the wires via torque applied to the shaft.  To get more power out, you have to put even more power in.  Those systems all have losses so it is always a losing equation; something goes to heat in one way or another.

[Potluck]

There is no "wasted" energy to recover.  Just the speed of the rotation is not the same as power.  Every bit of power the generator would "recover" would be added torque to the wheels that has to be supplied by the drive wheels and its source of power.

I hear this argument a lot from people how don't understand the principles of power and energy.  If just making it go round was enough and recovery power from a generator did not add load, I could put a 2 cc engine on a 100 MW generator.

Generators make the magnetic field that induces current in the wires via torque applied to the shaft.  To get more power out, you have to put even more power in.  Those systems all have losses so it is always a losing equation; something goes to heat in one way or another.

Exactly
Think of it as pushing two magnets together that repel for a half cycle then for the other half cycle it's like pulling apart two magnets that are stuck together. The bigger the magnets (bigger generator) the more energy needed to to complete each cycle.

[sneakypete]

Om my gosh Pete, stop.  You cannot generate energy from nothing.  The generator tied to wheels turning cannot generator more power that whatever is making the wheels turn.

WTH kind of convoluted thinking is that,and WHERE did I make such a claim. It would serve as an auxiliary generator IN ADDITION to the generator mounted in the car.

I never once made the claim it would produce more electricity than the car needed,or even all the electricity it needed. Not once,although it is POSSIBLE that in the future battery technology as well as automotive technology might advance to the level it that supply could meet demands.

Anything added to the load/torque that takes power to make power is a net loss.

I guess the wheels don't turn in any tow trailer you design,but in THIS world,the wheels DO turn,regardless of if they are powering a generator or just rolling.

[sneakypete]

To ban gasoline powered energy sources another power source needs to be found. Lithium Ion batteries are not the answer due to the fact there is already a shortage in mining.
We would have to double the current global supply of all lithium just to supply the US alone. The environmentalists are already up in arms about the prospect of additional mining and to top it all off we are not the dominate supplier of lithium. China is.

We are trying to raise a secondary power source (renewables) to the the status of a primary source. Fossil fuels.

@Potluck

Well,that explains why the DNC is for  it.

[thackney]

WTH kind of convoluted thinking is that,and WHERE did I make such a claim. It would serve as an auxiliary generator IN ADDITION to the generator mounted in the car.

There is no generator in the car.  That is the whole reason I made this suggestion.  There is only precharged batteries for power.

I never once made the claim it would produce more electricity than the car needed,or even all the electricity it needed. Not once,although it is POSSIBLE that in the future battery technology as well as automotive technology might advance to the level it that supply could meet demands.

Since the only supply is the batteries, there is no way to use the batteries to move the car, that moves the tires, that turns the generator, to charge the batteries.

I guess the wheels don't turn in any tow trailer you design,but in THIS world,the wheels DO turn,regardless of if they are powering a generator or just rolling.

Absolutely they turn, and turning at the same speed with a generator now attached, they apply torque to the wheel which creates resistance to the drive wheel, which adds load to the battery at some level greater than what the generator produces.

Generators require torque to produce power on the electrical wires.  More power is more torque which is more load on whatever is making the wheels go round and round.

[HoustonSam]

I guess the wheels don't turn in any tow trailer you design,but in THIS world,the wheels DO turn,regardless of if they are powering a generator or just rolling.

Here's a different way to think about it @sneakypete that might help.  Train locomotives are diesel-electric; they have a diesel engine in them that drives an electric generator, and that electric generator drives an electric motor over each set of wheels, to turn the wheels.  It's the electric motor, not the diesel engine, that turns the wheels.  Under some circumstances a train engineer actually does what you are suggesting - he uses the rolling wheels of the locomotive to generate electricity; well he needs electricity to drive the train so that seems like a winner, right?  But when he does this it's called dynamic braking, because it actually slows the train down.  Using the motion of the rolling wheels to drive a generator makes it harder to turn the wheels so the train slows down.

If we used the turning wheels of a generator-trailer to generate more electricity, the trailer would suddenly become harder for the electric vehicle to pull, and it would drain the vehicle's battery more quickly than the wheel-powered generator could add power back into the battery.  That's the reason no one has ever done it.

[Kamaji]

Here's a different way to think about it @sneakypete that might help.  Train locomotives are diesel-electric; they have a diesel engine in them that drives an electric generator, and that electric generator drives an electric motor over each set of wheels, to turn the wheels.  It's the electric motor, not the diesel engine, that turns the wheels.  Under some circumstances a train engineer actually does what you are suggesting - he uses the rolling wheels of the locomotive to generate electricity; well he needs electricity to drive the train so that seems like a winner, right?  But when he does this it's called dynamic braking, because it actually slows the train down.  Using the motion of the rolling wheels to drive a generator makes it harder to turn the wheels so the train slows down.

If we used the turning wheels of a generator-trailer to generate more electricity, the trailer would suddenly become harder for the electric vehicle to pull, and it would drain the vehicle's battery more quickly than the wheel-powered generator could add power back into the battery.  That's the reason no one has ever done it.

Easy-to-follow explanation.  Thank you.

[HoustonSam]

Easy-to-follow explanation.  Thank you.

Thanks @Kamaji, but my explanation needs to be graded by Professor @thackney.

[thackney]

Thanks @Kamaji, but my explanation needs to be graded by Professor @thackney.

@HoustonSam

Absolutely correct Sam, the engineer understands but struggles to communicate with others.

[sneakypete]

There is no generator in the car.  That is the whole reason I made this suggestion.  There is only precharged batteries for power.

That's just insane. I realize there would be additional weight that would decrease the range,but the wheels on the car could be used to generate SOME electricity to make up for the "wheel drag" loss,and extend the range.

BTW,what ever happened to the idea of solar panels built into the top surfaces of the cars to capture solar energy? I know they aren't "the answer" either,but every little bit helps.

Since the only supply is the batteries, there is no way to use the batteries to move the car, that moves the tires, that turns the generator, to charge the battYeeries.

Absolutely they turn, and turning at the same speed with a generator now attached, they apply torque to the wheel which creates resistance to the drive wheel, which adds load to the battery at some level greater than what the generator produces.

Yes,but there should still be a net gain that would increase the range.

 
 

[HoustonSam]

@HoustonSam

Absolutely correct Sam, the engineer understands but struggles to communicate with others.

That's why you have us ex-R&D Scientists who have been demoted to Management.

[sneakypete]

Here's a different way to think about it @sneakypete that might help.  Train locomotives are diesel-electric; they have a diesel engine in them that drives an electric generator, and that electric generator drives an electric motor over each set of wheels, to turn the wheels.  It's the electric motor, not the diesel engine, that turns the wheels.  Under some circumstances a train engineer actually does what you are suggesting - he uses the rolling wheels of the locomotive to generate electricity; well he needs electricity to drive the train so that seems like a winner, right? But when he does this it's called dynamic braking, because it actually slows the train down.  Using the motion of the rolling wheels to drive a generator makes it harder to turn the wheels so the train slows down.

Yes,but unlike trains,cars don't travel at maximum speed. They travel at roughly 60 MPH on average,and although I don't know what the top speed on the typical electric car is today,I am GUESSING it might be in the neighborhood of 100 mph on a fully-charged battery at sea level on a flat road. This means the system would be operating at 60 percent under typical driving conditions.

Which in turn would mean that a generator that is powered by the wheels that operates  at 30 percent of the maximum power required could possibly put out half the power being lost by driving at 60 MPH.

That ain't nothing to sneeze about.

Granted,no big deal for city dwellers,but if you live in mostly rural and open states it could be a VERY big deal when it comes to the range you can drive between re-charging.

If we used the turning wheels of a generator-trailer to generate more electricity, the trailer would suddenly become harder for the electric vehicle to pull, and it would drain the vehicle's battery more quickly than the wheel-powered generator could add power back into the battery.  That's the reason no one has ever done it.

Maybe that would be true IF the wheel-powered generator was the ONLY source of electrical power,but it wouldn't be.

[HoustonSam]

Maybe that would be true IF the wheel-powered generator was the ONLY source of electrical power,but it wouldn't be.

Nor is it true for the diesel electric locomotive - he's still got his diesel engine running and generating electric power through the generator.  But the train still slows down.

Regardless of the vehicle's speed, once you switch on that wheel-powered generator you're asking those rolling wheels to do additional work.  You're basically driving while holding down the brakes.

[thackney]

That's just insane. I realize there would be additional weight that would decrease the range,but the wheels on the car could be used to generate SOME electricity to make up for the "wheel drag" loss,and extend the range.

No Pete, I am trying to politely, respectively explain it does not work that way.

What you describe is a perpetual motion machine.

In any power system, you can draw a box around a component or group of components and the power in must equal the power out or you have made a mistake in your calculation.

Just a wheel going round and round does not have any power that can be recovered without the power being taken from somewhere else.

BTW,what ever happened to the idea of solar panels built into the top surfaces of the cars to capture solar energy? I know they aren't "the answer" either,but every little bit helps.

Yes, that would help, but the quantity would be so microscopic compared to the power needed to move the vehicle to be meaningless.  The small Tesla 3s have a 211 kW (283 hp) motor.  The average solar panel produces 15 watts per square foot.  If you put solar panels on a 8 foot wide trailer, it would need to 1/3 a mile long to produce that much power at peak.

Since the only supply is the batteries, there is no way to use the batteries to move the car, that moves the tires, that turns the generator, to charge the battYeeries.

That is how a fully electric car like the Tesla works.  You charge the batteries first, then you get to drive the car depleting the battery charge.  That is why their range is so limited compared to gasoline in the tank for energy.

Yes,but there should still be a net gain that would increase the range.

There is no power input to the system except what is supplied by the batteries.  There can be no gain without an outside source of power.  A generator running off the wheels pulled by the battery still needs the battery for power.  It can only be a net loss, not a net gain.

[Potluck]

Granted,no big deal for city dwellers,but if you live in mostly rural and open states it could be a VERY big deal when it comes to the range you can drive between re-charging.

Actually the range would be decreased in actual practice and doing mathematical gymnastics relies on a misinterpretation of the data presented.

Simple truth. If this worked it would already be in practice.

 These kind of ideas have been on the internet since the beginning and I’ve never seen any of them work in the real world.

[thackney]

...Yes,but unlike trains,cars don't travel at maximum speed. They travel at roughly 60 MPH on average,and although I don't know what the top speed on the typical electric car is today,I am GUESSING it might be in the neighborhood of 100 mph on a fully-charged battery at sea level on a flat road. This means the system would be operating at 60 percent under typical driving conditions.

Which in turn would mean that a generator that is powered by the wheels that operates  at 30 percent of the maximum power required could possibly put out half the power being lost by driving at 60 MPH.

Pete, it does not work that way.

The max power requirement is for acceleration, not speed.  Trains are highly efficient because the they rarely stop and start.  The majority of the travel is near constant speed.  At speed, they only have to overcome friction and drag from the air.  The engine works little at steady speed.

The same with a car.  The motor has the ability to accelerate faster, but uses less power at steady speed.  Adding something like a generator in a trailer adds "drag" requiring more output from the motor.  Whatever the generator generates, the motor had to supply that power and more for the losses.

[thackney]

Actually the range would be decreased in actual practice and doing mathematical gymnastics relies on a misinterpretation of the data presented.

Simple truth. If this worked it would already be in practice.

 These kind of ideas have been on the internet since the beginning and I’ve never seen any of them work in the real world.

Exactly.  If one trailer/generator created a gain in power, string together a million of them and you could have tremendous power.

Except you could never make it move, and it is a loss, not a gain.

[Potluck]

you could have tremendous power.

Except you could never make it move, and it is a loss, not a gain.

Sounds like Biden. 😁

[Fishrrman]

Let's go back in time to the 1830s-40s-50s.

A very few farsighted men were experimenting with running railroad locomotives using not steam, but... electricity.

There was no "generated" electricity then, so they used the only devices they had to provide electrical current -- primitive batteries.

A few experimental engines were put together, and they all failed, due to the fact that the battery could not supply enough power, for long enough, to make the locomotive practical.

Then along came the dynamo, and with it a reliable source of constant power. The concept of "battery-powered" locomotives was quickly replaced by either a "third rail" or overhead power line that could keep the engine connected to a constant power supply.

Take a look at this:


I ran this one many times.
See that red thing up on top?
It's called a "pantograph" and it's supplying the engine with 11,000 (or 25,000) volts, depending on where you are on the railroad.

So long as there's power in the wire, you keep going.

Now, how many here remember these things?


I recall they were a lot of fun.
What kept them going?
That thingamajig on the back that reached up and kept in contact with an overhead "screen".

THIS could be the answer to electric vehicles with "unlimited range", if someone wanted it to work and could design a practical "overhead" for through highways.

A car would still have a battery, of course, for roads where overhead power delivery was impractical. But get onto the freeway, raise "the pan", and the vehicle could run with "overhead power" and charge the battery at the same time.

Just dreamin', I guess...

[sneakypete]

No Pete, I am trying to politely, respectively explain it does not work that way.

What you describe is a perpetual motion machine.


No,I am NOT.


In any power system, you can draw a box around a component or group of components and the power in must equal the power out or you have made a mistake in your calculation.

Just a wheel going round and round does not have any power that can be recovered without the power being taken from somewhere else.


Ok,so how does a powerless hand cart roll down a hill?