Author Topic: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts  (Read 11667 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline HoustonSam

  • "That'll be the day......"
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,982
  • Gender: Male
  • old times there are not forgotten
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #200 on: May 15, 2021, 02:13:49 am »
I tell my project team I am on the job to give everyone else someone to blame.

Would that we all had such leaders on our project teams.

I'm going to add that one to my Leader aphorism list.
James 1:20

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #201 on: May 15, 2021, 02:17:51 am »
In every significant project, there comes a time when you need to shoot the engineer and finish the work.

I tell my project team I am on the job to give everyone else someone to blame.

@thackney

I joined the discussion to suggest a doable plan for people with electric cars to drive long distances. I had no idea it was going to dissolve into a discussion about how many kilowatts could dance on the head of a pin,and how many that WERE dancing were break dancing,and how many were square dancing.

The idea in MY alleged mind was to develop a practical plan to GET THERE and GET BACK,and all I got was "it ain't gonna work because it ain't cutting edge."

Sometimes the point is to just get there and get back.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,764
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #202 on: May 15, 2021, 05:11:28 am »
In every significant project, there comes a time when you need to shoot the engineer and finish the work.

I tell my project team I am on the job to give everyone else someone to blame.

LOL!  :laugh:

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,711
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #203 on: May 15, 2021, 07:04:51 am »
Yeah I've tried to sort out how inertia would play into this.  For the momentary period when the driver's foot is off the "gas" we are drawing minimally from the battery so wheel-generated power added back to the battery might be a net positive.

I suppose it depends on how we describe the cases for comparison.  Capturing energy from inertia during each stop-start cycle would certainly be better than not capturing energy from inertia during each stop-start cycle, so for stop-start city driving I can see how one would argue the range is extended.  But I would expect steady-speed highway driving to have a longer range than either of these stop-start cases, and that range to be impeded by continual recharging from wheel-generated incremental power.
What you describe is why the brakes last longer on most vehicles that travel large distances on highways (like out here in the Dakotas) and you might not use your brakes at all for fifty miles (not much traffic, either). In town, though, braking is almost as frequent as acceleration, what with traffic, stoplights, and such, so it might make a difference there if the braking included using the momentum of the vehicle to generate electricity.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline thackney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,267
  • Gender: Male
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #204 on: May 15, 2021, 12:58:40 pm »
What you describe is why the brakes last longer on most vehicles that travel large distances on highways (like out here in the Dakotas) and you might not use your brakes at all for fifty miles (not much traffic, either). In town, though, braking is almost as frequent as acceleration, what with traffic, stoplights, and such, so it might make a difference there if the braking included using the momentum of the vehicle to generate electricity.

Electric regenerative braking, ie a generator tied to the wheel, is taking momentum, ie kinetic energy, and converting it into electric energy.

But it takes energy, it slows the vehicle down.  You have to add more energy into the motor to keep at the same speed, like driving with the brakes on.

The trailer generator driven by the wheels turning on the electric car either slows the car down or adds more load to motor.  It cannot be a gain to the system.

Many people miss the fact that as more energy is taken out of the generator, it gets harder to turn.  It requires increasing torque to produce increasing kW.
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Online Elderberry

  • TBR Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,427
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #205 on: May 15, 2021, 02:00:36 pm »
Electric regenerative braking, ie a generator tied to the wheel, is taking momentum, ie kinetic energy, and converting it into electric energy.

It is the electric motor, functioning as a generator, not a separate generator.

Quote

But it takes energy, it slows the vehicle down.  You have to add more energy into the motor to keep at the same speed, like driving with the brakes on.

It is only utilized for braking, not while keeping a steady speed. It is taking otherwise wasted kinetic energy, slowing the vehicle in the process, and using it to recharge the battery.

BassWrangler

  • Guest
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #206 on: May 15, 2021, 02:18:44 pm »
It is the electric motor, functioning as a generator, not a separate generator.

It is only utilized for braking, not while keeping a steady speed. It is taking otherwise wasted kinetic energy, slowing the vehicle in the process, and using it to recharge the battery.

Exactly, right. And regarding the comments about vehicles (like hybrids) with this technology getting better mileage in the city than highway, it's because wind resistance (drag) increases approximately with the square of velocity. Most of us drive much faster on the highway than in the city (i have a neighbor who is apparently an exception to this rule), so combined with the gains from regenerative braking, you might get better mileage in city driving.

Regenerative braking is one of the features I really like on electric cars. Most of the time I am able to do one pedal driving, pressing the accelerator pedal to speed up and letting off to slow down. My car knows to use the brakes when stopped.

Offline thackney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,267
  • Gender: Male
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #207 on: May 15, 2021, 04:36:43 pm »
It is the electric motor, functioning as a generator, not a separate generator.

It is only utilized for braking, not while keeping a steady speed. It is taking otherwise wasted kinetic energy, slowing the vehicle in the process, and using it to recharge the battery.

Yes sir, I agree completely.  I was referring the previous conversation of trailer mounted and how this demonstrated the principle.
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Online Elderberry

  • TBR Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,427
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #208 on: May 15, 2021, 04:56:59 pm »
Yes sir, I agree completely.  I was referring the previous conversation of trailer mounted and how this demonstrated the principle.

What confused me then is only halfway thru your comment did you mention "trailer". So I took that as a separate example.

Offline thackney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,267
  • Gender: Male
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #209 on: May 15, 2021, 05:23:55 pm »
What confused me then is only halfway thru your comment did you mention "trailer". So I took that as a separate example.

I probably wouldn't be an engineer if I could communicate effectively.  Absolutely adore using drawings to communicate.  I frequently leave out words that would have help describe...

I really try to reread and understand what I left out, but the voices in my head just fill in the blanks automatically...

Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,186
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #210 on: May 15, 2021, 05:29:38 pm »
I probably wouldn't be an engineer if I could communicate effectively.  Absolutely adore using drawings to communicate.  I frequently leave out words that would have help describe...

I really try to reread and understand what I left out, but the voices in my head just fill in the blanks automatically...

I always do what the voices in my head tell me to. 333cleo 333cleo rrthree
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline thackney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,267
  • Gender: Male
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #211 on: May 15, 2021, 05:39:07 pm »
I always do what the voices in my head tell me to.

How do you hide that many bodies?
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Online Elderberry

  • TBR Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,427
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #212 on: May 15, 2021, 05:41:30 pm »
Yes, I can be picky. Years ago, at work, they changed the whole approval process on technical documents, to skip the entire test department, as we were, especially me, too picky on redlining documents.

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,186
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #213 on: May 15, 2021, 05:43:08 pm »
How do you hide that many bodies?

Castles have catacombs.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,764
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #214 on: May 15, 2021, 05:44:49 pm »
Castles have catacombs.

Rednecks have backhoes.

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,186
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #215 on: May 15, 2021, 05:45:47 pm »
Rednecks have backhoes.

I was going to mention that, thanks for taking the slack!
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Online Elderberry

  • TBR Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,427
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #216 on: May 15, 2021, 05:47:37 pm »
Farmers have hogs.

Online Elderberry

  • TBR Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,427
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #217 on: May 15, 2021, 05:55:26 pm »
In the Bayou there be Gators.

Online DB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,249
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #218 on: May 15, 2021, 05:57:16 pm »
I probably wouldn't be an engineer if I could communicate effectively.  Absolutely adore using drawings to communicate.  I frequently leave out words that would have help describe...

I really try to reread and understand what I left out, but the voices in my head just fill in the blanks automatically...

There are visual thinkers and something else entirely foreign to me thinkers...

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,764
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #219 on: May 15, 2021, 06:04:42 pm »
I probably wouldn't be an engineer if I could communicate effectively.  Absolutely adore using drawings to communicate.  I frequently leave out words that would have help describe...

I really try to reread and understand what I left out, but the voices in my head just fill in the blanks automatically...

Code does that to me... I have to have the whole thing spun up in my head before I can write a lick. And if someone asked me to describe what I am doing, I would be incapable.

Same with building something. The blueprint is all spun up, and I can see it plain as day, but I couldn't tell you about it.

Every once in a while I find a kindred soul that looks at what I am doing and just gets it and begins to pitch in. Again, no communication necessary. Hard to find - extremely rare - And why I miss my old man. We were just always on the same page.


Online Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,478
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #220 on: May 15, 2021, 06:15:43 pm »
@thackney

I joined the discussion to suggest a doable plan for people with electric cars to drive long distances. I had no idea it was going to dissolve into a discussion about how many kilowatts could dance on the head of a pin,and how many that WERE dancing were break dancing,and how many were square dancing.

What type of square dancing?  Traditional, contemporary Western, Irish, or Scottish?


@thackney

I joined the discussion to suggest a doable plan for people with electric cars to drive long distances. I had no idea it was going to dissolve into a discussion about how many kilowatts could dance on the heaThe idea in MY alleged mind was to develop a practical plan to GET THERE and GET BACK,and all I got was "it ain't gonna work because it ain't cutting edge."

An engineer's job should never involve the phrase 'it ain't gonna work'.  An engineer's job is to find a way to make it work.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,186
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #221 on: May 15, 2021, 06:18:40 pm »
What type of square dancing?  Traditional, contemporary Western, Irish, or Scottish?


An engineer's job should never involve the phrase 'it ain't gonna work'.  An engineer's job is to find a way to make it work.

We must never forget the dynamic trio, "Gene, Joe, and Art."  Gene is the Engineer, Joe is the Technician and Art is the end user.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 06:19:26 pm by Cyber Liberty »
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Online DB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,249
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #222 on: May 15, 2021, 06:56:32 pm »
What type of square dancing?  Traditional, contemporary Western, Irish, or Scottish?


An engineer's job should never involve the phrase 'it ain't gonna work'.  An engineer's job is to find a way to make it work.

But...

It is also the engineer's job to determine if there's a violation of the laws of physics and to cut it off before too many resources are wasted on it. Something can look great until those pesky little nitty gritty details start emerging showing otherwise. It is real easy to ignore some "little" detail that no one has an answer for and keep going with the project with plans to address it later only to find out it can't be solved later with what was already done... Those are the things that should be done first. You have to resolve the unknowns first or at least know that they are solvable with certainty on the path you are taking.

Offline thackney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,267
  • Gender: Male
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #223 on: May 15, 2021, 07:49:37 pm »
An engineer's job should never involve the phrase 'it ain't gonna work'.  An engineer's job is to find a way to make it work.

Unless it breaks the laws of physics.  And even then, if the client wants to pay for some R&D....
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #224 on: May 15, 2021, 08:51:57 pm »
What type of square dancing?  Traditional, contemporary Western, Irish, or Scottish?


An engineer's job should never involve the phrase 'it ain't gonna work'.  An engineer's job is to find a way to make it work.

@Hoodat

I'm not an engineer. I'm a dood wid a GED. I define "it works" when I get something to do what I need it to do,and to hell with everything else.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!