Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts

[thackney]

I had posted about a French start up that wants to do something just like that, the have a trailer with a generator that is plugged into the EV and adds and additional 350 - 450(I don't recall) so that EV owners can be just like ICE owners as far as range

I do not get the silly aspect of the concept.  Many owners would only need that a few times a year.  My needs are far more often.

[BassWrangler]

I had posted about a French start up that wants to do something just like that, the have a trailer with a generator that is plugged into the EV and adds and additional 350 - 450(I don't recall) so that EV owners can be just like ICE owners as far as range

[Cyber Liberty]

I suggest checking elsewhere, if the battery is the only real problem.  I started searching after I asked.

$2149.00

https://www.besthybridbatteries.com/products/ford-escape-2005-2009-hybrid-battery

https://www.besthybridbatteries.com/locations

The downside of a DIY battery replacement is the inherent danger of installing a 300V battery.  I value my life more than the car.  Plus, a battery in a hybrid is not a plug and play operation...the entire computer system would require retuning.  Here in the Desert a car has to be very reliable and I'd be afraid of that even if the replacement process went well.

I am not a mechanic (worked on my last car in the 70's), and I don't trust the shade-tree guys with a technology still as rare as this.  IOW, the added cost is worth it to me.

ETA:  It's likely not just the battery.  OBD says I should replace the in-tank fuel pump, and the PCM was throwing errors before the battery died.

[roamer_1]

The downside of a DIY battery replacement is the inherent danger of installing a 300V battery.  I value my life more than the car.  Plus, a battery in a hybrid is not a plug and play operation...the entire computer system would require retuning.  Here in the Desert a car has to be very reliable and I'd be afraid of that even if the replacement process went well.

I am not a mechanic (worked on my last car in the 70's), and I don't trust the shade-tree guys with a technology still as rare as this.  IOW, the added cost is worth it to me.

ETA:  It's likely not just the battery.  OBD says I should replace the in-tank fuel pump, and the PCM was throwing errors before the battery died.

You need a redneck friend with know-how. After watching the vid upthread, replacing that battery is not scary to me at all. And there is somebody down there that has done it a few times.

See, a buddy like me, you could get that done in an evening of planning and a light weekend of doing. For little more than beer and pizza. All you need is a friend like that, and occupational knowledge that makes reciprocation a reliable predictability. Swapping favors according to abilities.
 
That's how it's done in the country.

[Potluck]

https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2021/05/11/now-its-cnn-electric-cars-could-wipe-out-this-species-n389095

Electric vehicles can’t happen without lithium — and a lot of it. Lithium is a critical mineral in the batteries that power electric vehicles. The world will need to mine 42 times as much lithium as was mined in 2020 if we will meet the climate goals set by the Paris Agreement, according to the International Energy Agency. Existing mines and projects under construction will meet only half the demand for lithium in 2030, the agency said.

The United States has only one active lithium mine today. The country will need 500,000 metric tons of lithium carbonate equivalent by 2030, according to research by RK Equity, a New York firm that advises investors on lithium. The entire global lithium carbonate equivalent market last year was 325,000 metric tons, RK Equity partner Howard Klein told CNN Business.


More at the link

[thackney]

The downside of a DIY battery replacement is the inherent danger of installing a 300V battery.  I value my life more than the car.  Plus, a battery in a hybrid is not a plug and play operation...the entire computer system would require retuning.  Here in the Desert a car has to be very reliable and I'd be afraid of that even if the replacement process went well.

I am not a mechanic (worked on my last car in the 70's), and I don't trust the shade-tree guys with a technology still as rare as this.  IOW, the added cost is worth it to me.

ETA:  It's likely not just the battery.  OBD says I should replace the in-tank fuel pump, and the PCM was throwing errors before the battery died.

Our White Glove Service provides a convenient and hassle-free method for premium hybrid battery installation service at a network of qualified repair centers across The United States. Charges can vary based on location and vehicle type and may range between $199 and $399 in certain locations.

https://www.besthybridbatteries.com/pages/white-glove-installs

I found 5 locations within 100 miles of your area.  3 in Henderson and 2 in Las Vegas

[sneakypete]

Yeah, and gasoline is perfectly safe and nothing bad ever happens from it. There are some kinks to be certain in electric vehicles, but they'll grow in acceptance and the kinks will be worked out over time.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

And what are a few human sacrifices if they help the Fatherland in the Long run/Long March,right?

[Smokin Joe]

I am still surprised that there is not an effort to have a small generator/trailer available to rent that would charge the car for long driving events like a vacation trip.  Something you may only want once a year.

I have trouble seeing how towing a generator (ICE) and powering the car from that is more efficient than just running the ICE. Then there is the problem with an extra running engine and fuel if there is an accident. Considering the distances between major towns here run about 130 miles, in winter, the trailer would be a must for intended trips (gotta run the heater/defroster too), and in winter driving the average person with a trailer is a professional or in the ditch...

If it isn't broke don't 'fix' it.

[Potluck]

I have trouble seeing how towing a generator (ICE) and powering the car from that is more efficient than just running the ICE. Then there is the problem with an extra running engine and fuel if there is an accident. Considering the distances between major towns here run about 130 miles, in winter, the trailer would be a must for intended trips (gotta run the heater/defroster too), and in winter driving the average person with a trailer is a professional or in the ditch...

If it isn't broke don't 'fix' it.

Ah. And there’s a physics problem here.
There is no such thing as free energy.
Unless the generator is being used in conjunction with the braking system for drag there’s no advantage. On flat or uphill there is still that drag. The energy needed to turn over the generator comes from the car. Considering the efficiency of the generator and the efficiency of the battery/motor in the vehicle the cycle robs energy, not gaining energy.

It’s like hooking up a generator to a motor the produce energy for the motor. It doesn't work. 

[thackney]

Ah. And there’s a physics problem here.
There is no such thing as free energy.
Unless the generator is being used in conjunction with the braking system for drag there’s no advantage. On flat or uphill there is still that drag. The energy needed to turn over the generator comes from the car. Considering the efficiency of the generator and the efficiency of the battery/motor in the vehicle the cycle robs energy, not gaining energy.

It’s like hooking up a generator to a motor the produce energy for the motor. It doesn't work.

@Smokin Joe


It was only suggested for extended range for very occassional use for the owner who already decided to own the electric vehicle.  I made no claims of efficiency, it is only for range and not normal use.

I would not have it; I will always have ICE vehicle.  But for those that choose the electric as their only vehicle (and there are quite a few now), it seems this market already exists.

I suppose you can just rent a regular car for such a trip, but I would hope the trailer generator would be far cheaper.  The engine would certainly be much smaller.

[Potluck]

@Smokin Joe


It was only suggested for extended range for very occassional use for the owner who already decided to own the electric vehicle.  I made no claims of efficiency, it is only for range and not normal use.

I would not have it; I will always have ICE vehicle.  But for those that choose the electric as their only vehicle (and there are quite a few now), it seems this market already exists.

I suppose you can just rent a regular car for such a trip, but I would hope the trailer generator would be far cheaper.  The engine would certainly be much smaller.

I can understand that it looks like something that might work but the only energy source in the generator/vehicle system is the battery in the car. It takes energy to turn over a generator. One cannot get more energy out than what goes in. No different than towing a wind turbine. I’ve heard that one suggested a while back.
Even if all components in the towed generator idea is at 100% efficiency energy out cannot exceed energy in.

[HoustonSam]

I can understand that it looks like something that might work but the only energy source in the generator/vehicle system is the battery in the car. It takes energy to turn over a generator. One cannot get more energy out than what goes in. No different than towing a wind turbine. I’ve heard that one suggested a while back.
Even if all components in the towed generator idea is at 100% efficiency energy out cannot exceed energy in.

Unless the generator was fuel-powered and supplied from an on-board fuel tank.  Then the question would become the efficiency of burning that fuel directly in an ICE versus converting it to electricity and powering motion electrically.  In theory the generator-supplied power could even go directly to motion, not to the vehicle's battery, similar to a diesel electric locomotive.

I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, only that it's a possible idea.

[thackney]

I can understand that it looks like something that might work but the only energy source in the generator/vehicle system is the battery in the car. It takes energy to turn over a generator. One cannot get more energy out than what goes in. No different than towing a wind turbine. I’ve heard that one suggested a while back.

Even if all components in the towed generator idea is at 100% efficiency energy out cannot exceed energy in.

Generators run on fuel.  I mean a trailer with a fueled generator that you put gasoline or diesel into to get the extended range.  The only connection to vehicle is the tow bar and the electric cable to charge the vehicle batteries.

No magic was implied.

[Smokin Joe]

Generators run on fuel.  I mean a trailer with a fueled generator that you put gasoline or diesel into to get the extended range.  The only connection to vehicle is the tow bar and the electric cable to charge the vehicle batteries.

No magic was implied.

I understood what you were getting at, and how it would work to extend range of the existing EV, I'm really just considering (aside from efficiency problems which would take back seat to, say, getting to Mayo to be with a relative or some such when the weather was wrong for flying) that this would imply that there would be times when the roads would be populated by even a small fraction of people not used to pulling trailers, who would be doing so with an EV, not an F250, and who would be pulling not just a trailer, but one with a live and hot (thermally) running engine and generator with fuel supply on board. The potential for catastrophe is present, in so many ways.
'Amateur hour' on steroids...

[thackney]

I understood what you were getting at, and how it would work to extend range of the existing EV, I'm really just considering (aside from efficiency problems which would take back seat to, say, getting to Mayo to be with a relative or some such when the weather was wrong for flying) that this would imply that there would be times when the roads would be populated by even a small fraction of people not used to pulling trailers, who would be doing so with an EV, not an F250, and who would be pulling not just a trailer, but one with a live and hot (thermally) running engine and generator with fuel supply on board. The potential for catastrophe is present, in so many ways.
'Amateur hour' on steroids...

You make good points.  Probably for the electric car owner (not you or I), renting another car with a regular engine makes more sense.

[sneakypete]

I can understand that it looks like something that might work but the only energy source in the generator/vehicle system is the battery in the car. It takes energy to turn over a generator. One cannot get more energy out than what goes in. No different than towing a wind turbine. I’ve heard that one suggested a while back.
Even if all components in the towed generator idea is at 100% efficiency energy out cannot exceed energy in.

@Smokin Joe @Potluck

Maybe I am wrong,but MY guess what Smoking Joe made the suggestion with the assumption that the wheels on the trailer would be turning a generator mounted to the trailer that charges the battery in the trailer and the battery in the electric car once the trailer battery is at full charge. Assuming of course that it would ever be at full charge while operating.

Seems like a simple enough concept to me. You can even adjust the charge rate by changing the height of the tires. Shorter tires mean more RPM's turned by the wheels resulting in a higher charging rate,and taller tires mean fewer tire RPM's/slower charging rate.

Sure,chances are it wouldn't be practical to own for most people that aren't traveling salesmen types,but I sure would like to own a franchise renting them out to vacationers and similar users.

[Potluck]

Then it’s back to MPG 
How much fossil fuel needed to produce the energy to go a certain amount of miles further.
Depending on the load a generator can be a real gas guzzler.

[sneakypete]

You make good points.  Probably for the electric car owner (not you or I), renting another car with a regular engine makes more sense.

@thackney

You are assuming,of course,that there will still be gasoline powered cars being manufactured to be sold to rental companies.

That is NOT going to happen. Within 20 years or so it will be illegal to own and operate a gasoline powered anything. Ford just announced they were be offering a battery powered Mustang next year,and I THINK it was GM that has already announced a date in the not so distant future when they will ONLY be manufacturing electric vehicles.

Nope,the simplest and best solution is my idea of a tow behind cart with a generator powered by the cart/trailer wheels when they are turning to spin the generator to charge the batteries in both the trailer/cart as needed. It's such a simple idea I can't understand why it wouldn't be obvious to everyone. The cart/trailer is going to be towed behind the driven car and the wheels will be turning anyhow,so why not have them spin a generator while they are turning?

If I were smart enough,I would patent this idea.

[thackney]

@thackney

You are assuming,of course,that there will still be gasoline powered cars being manufactured to be sold to rental companies.

That is NOT going to happen. Within 20 years or so it will be illegal to own and operate a gasoline powered anything.

I will bet my own money your are wrong on that.  Way, way too many will not accept that and far to many won't have the ability to live with it for the application.  Lots of work trucks and the like.

Ford just announced they were be offering a battery powered Mustang next year,and I THINK it was GM that has already announced a date in the not so distant future when they will ONLY be manufacturing electric vehicles.

Nope,the simplest and best solution is my idea of a tow behind cart with a generator powered by the cart/trailer wheels when they are turning to spin the generator to charge the batteries in both the trailer/cart as needed. It's such a simple idea I can't understand why it wouldn't be obvious to everyone. The cart/trailer is going to be towed behind the driven car and the wheels will be turning anyhow,so why not have them spin a generator while they are turning?

If I were smart enough,I would patent this idea.

You're joking I hope.  Turning the wheels to turn a generator requires more energy in torque than the generator can put out.  Same concept of mounting a wind generator on top of the car.

Politicians aside, 1st law of thermodynamics still applies.  tanstaafl

[Potluck]

@thackney

You are assuming,of course,that there will still be gasoline powered cars being manufactured to be sold to rental companies.

That is NOT going to happen. Within 20 years or so it will be illegal to own and operate a gasoline powered anything. Ford just announced they were be offering a battery powered Mustang next year,and I THINK it was GM that has already announced a date in the not so distant future when they will ONLY be manufacturing electric vehicles.

Nope,the simplest and best solution is my idea of a tow behind cart with a generator powered by the cart/trailer wheels when they are turning to spin the generator to charge the batteries in both the trailer/cart as needed. It's such a simple idea I can't understand why it wouldn't be obvious to everyone. The cart/trailer is going to be towed behind the driven car and the wheels will be turning anyhow,so why not have them spin a generator while they are turning?

If I were smart enough,I would patent this idea.

Even if all components in the towed generator idea is at 100% efficiency energy out cannot exceed energy in.

Simple physics. Conservation of energy. In this world energy can neither be created nor destroyed.
Again, the only energy source in a towed generator system that gets it's energy to turn the wheels in the first place is the battery in the car. There is no other power source.

[sneakypete]

I will bet my own money your are wrong on that.  Way, way too many will not accept that and far to many won't have the ability to live with it for the application.  Lots of work trucks and the like.

You're joking I hope.  Turnhaing the wheels to turn a generator requires more energy in torque than the generator can put out.  Same concept of mounting a wind generator on top of the car.

Politicians aside, 1st law of thermodynamics still applies.  tanstaafl

@thackney

You are assuming the trailer-mounted generator will be the sole source of power. It's won't. It will just make the batteries remain charged longer,resulting in longer drives before having to stop to recharge at a charging station.

Think of it like a "energy overdrive" that puts less stress on the batteries that power the car.

[thackney]

@thackney

You are assuming the trailer-mounted generator will be the sole source of power. It's won't. It will just make the batteries remain charged longer,resulting in longer drives before having to stop to recharge at a charging station.

Think of it like a "energy overdrive" that puts less stress on the batteries that power the car.

Om my gosh Pete, stop.  You cannot generate energy from nothing.  The generator tied to wheels turning cannot generator more power that whatever is making the wheels turn.

Every mechanical and electrical system has power losses.  Anything added to the load/torque that takes power to make power is a net loss.

[Cyber Liberty]

[Potluck]

To ban gasoline powered energy sources another power source needs to be found. Lithium Ion batteries are not the answer due to the fact there is already a shortage in mining.
We would have to double the current global supply of all lithium just to supply the US alone. The environmentalists are already up in arms about the prospect of additional mining and to top it all off we are not the dominate supplier of lithium. China is.

We are trying to raise a secondary power source (renewables) to the the status of a primary source. Fossil fuels.

[Potluck]

Spot on!