Author Topic: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers  (Read 27770 times)

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Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #575 on: March 18, 2021, 05:34:25 am »
BTW, @roamer_1 circling back to your statement that you don't want New York dictating to Montana, states have frequently sued each other.

As stated in my earlier post, ... Under Article III, Section 2 of the United States Constitution states may sue other states and the US Supreme Court is the court of original jurisdiction.  They sue each other fairly frequently, especially in areas of jurisdiction, land rights, resource rights and debt collection.

So, while a long shot --- it is possible NY could be telling MT what to do some day.   :laugh:

No. Not within it's sovereign right and internal affairs.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #576 on: March 18, 2021, 06:34:49 am »
@Right_in_Virginia

No, they do NOT.  The Constitution rests the authority SOLELY in each state respectively, and in the legislature thereof specifically. The ONLY business there is INTERNAL to the respective states.

@roamer_1

Let's try again ----  The Electors Clause of Article II, Section 1, Clause 2, delegates the power to regulate the selection of Electors in a Presidential election to the United States and the United States has specifically decreed:   "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector."

The Texas suit, which is very simple and straightforward, wanted a ruling on:

--whether or not the four named defendant states broke with the US Constitution by selecting electors for the President of the United States using methods not directed by their state legislatures.

-- and further, whether or not this violated the rights of the citizens of all states under the Fourteenth Amendment.

I provided the link to the brief filed with the SC --- it's not long.  It may help to read it.


I understand the concept of original jurisdiction. That does NOT mean the court MUST pick it up. If the claim has no merit it SHOULD be rejected outright, or soon enough the court will be engulfed by nuisance suits aimed precisely at that: Being a nuisance, in the no-downside hope of the spaghetti sticking to the wall.

A state v state lawsuit is unique; there is one and only one court of refuge.  The Constitutionally designated court of original jurisdiction is the US Supreme Court ---  it  has original and exclusive jurisdiction to hear disputes between different states; no other federal court can hear such a dispute. Inherent in this designation is the obligation to hear the suit and not leave a state(s) without recourse and remedy. 

That seven justices divorced themselves from the Constitution is what should put a burr in your saddle.


I am outright opposed to both your points.

 88devil

They're not MY points.  They're the points of the US Constitution.  You'll need to initiate the Amendment process if you'd like to change either the Electors Clause or Original Jurisdiction.






« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 06:39:36 am by Right_in_Virginia »

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #577 on: March 18, 2021, 06:42:49 am »
The new Conservative is either a Xi conservative, or a Putin conservative, glad i could clear up a lot of mysteries for some of you.
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More like transleftist....
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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #578 on: March 18, 2021, 06:45:29 am »
@Cyber Liberty

I still don't get it. Most seem to be proud of being a RINO,not ashamed of it.
For those of us who are not Republicans, it has no meaning at all.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #579 on: March 18, 2021, 06:55:54 am »
Exactly NO. I will not succumb to the unreliability of public square 'justice'.
Absolutely not.

If you want to see me turn that around, you have to sure as hell prove it in court, where documents are vetted and evidence established, not relying on waggin tongues and gossip rags.

I am fairly certain that there was chicanery - There always IS... Proving it is the hard part, and I said that right when this whole mess started.

Standards. Principles. They have a purpose.
There is something about some 200,000 more votes than registered voters that inclines me greatly toward fraud on a massive scale. Cui bono? That's obvious, and they are the people who have most egregiously lied to us..

But let me put it this way, I am supposed somehow to believe that a person who can barely articulate what day it is, who never drew a crowd the media didn't have to play camera angle tricks to make look like a funeral for someone unpopular in the rain, someone who can't get more than a couple of thousand people to follow their speeches, beat a guy who could easily pack a venue--a guy who got more votes than any sitting president in history, and was allegedly still beaten (after the 5 key states shut down and his numbers went vertical, all about the same time? And those Same jurisdictions are resisting attempts to verify those votes by any means necessary, including shredding ballots?

Sorry, but at some point the camel's back broke.

I want to see a thorough investigation and the production of ALL the evidence, examination of software, logs, chains of custody, etc. But that isn't going to happen. Like Janet Reno used to say, "There is no evidence which exists....", and I believe the perpetrators have been doing all necessary to make sure none of that sees the light of day.

Hell, Yes, it was stolen.   
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #580 on: March 18, 2021, 09:36:29 am »

I will not cede Conservative ground, and I will not throw Conservative brethren under the bus for your fetid movement.
Did you know that there are prayer meetings in the Whitehouse every week?  Did you know that preachers from all over the country meet there once a month to pray for President Trump, our nation, military and operators in harm's way?  Some come there from other nations.  Big names and small names, whenever they can get there.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #581 on: March 18, 2021, 12:00:34 pm »
@roamer_1

Let's try again ----  The Electors Clause of Article II, Section 1, Clause 2, delegates the power to regulate the selection of Electors in a Presidential election to the United States and the United States has specifically decreed:   "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector."

The Texas suit, which is very simple and straightforward, wanted a ruling on:

--whether or not the four named defendant states broke with the US Constitution by selecting electors for the President of the United States using methods not directed by their state legislatures.

-- and further, whether or not this violated the rights of the citizens of all states under the Fourteenth Amendment.

I provided the link to the brief filed with the SC --- it's not long.  It may help to read it.


*sigh*... This is getting boring.
I already read the briefs. And I know what is going on. As I said before @Right_in_Virginia , The ONLY remedy is in the hands of the respective state legislatures. The agency of their administrators are an extension of themselves. If they are offended by that agent's actions, they have the power to take it up. And that power rests SOLELY in THEM according to the Constitution.

That they do not exercise that power is their business, and no one else's. That is passive acquiescence by definition, and you have no native right to MAKE them take it up. That is why it is their power SOLELY. That's kinda what SOLELY ~means~.

Quote
A state v state lawsuit is unique; there is one and only one court of refuge.  The Constitutionally designated court of original jurisdiction is the US Supreme Court ---  it  has original and exclusive jurisdiction to hear disputes between different states; no other federal court can hear such a dispute. Inherent in this designation is the obligation to hear the suit and not leave a state(s) without recourse and remedy. 

That seven justices divorced themselves from the Constitution is what should put a burr in your saddle.

It may be unique, but the pressure on the court is not, and original jurisdiction or not, the court can thankfully ignore spurious claims. Which is what seems to have happened.


Quote

They're not MY points.  They're the points of the US Constitution.  You'll need to initiate the Amendment process if you'd like to change either the Electors Clause or Original Jurisdiction.

No, they are your points alright, and nothing more than your convenient interpretation of the Constitution - Not the breath of the Constitution itself. Or indeed New York would be getting all up in Montana's business. Your interpretation is thus ~thankfully~ rejected.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 01:06:50 pm by roamer_1 »

Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #582 on: March 18, 2021, 01:09:32 pm »
Did you know that there are prayer meetings in the Whitehouse every week?  Did you know that preachers from all over the country meet there once a month to pray for President Trump, our nation, military and operators in harm's way?  Some come there from other nations.  Big names and small names, whenever they can get there.

SO WHAT? What has that to do with throwing Conservative factions under the bus?

Offline Killer Clouds

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #583 on: March 18, 2021, 01:12:59 pm »
SO WHAT? What has that to do with throwing Conservative factions under the bus?
What would you know about conservatives? You're obviously on here just to troll and argue.

Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #584 on: March 18, 2021, 01:27:48 pm »
There is something about some 200,000 more votes than registered voters that inclines me greatly toward fraud on a massive scale. Cui bono? That's obvious, and they are the people who have most egregiously lied to us..

Right. If true. And I would not put it past right leaning propagandists to have made it up... As there are examples thereof existing, I hold  *nothing* reported to be true. I can no longer trust Right leaning sources, any more than I can trust the left.

However, I DO lean hard toward the idea of corruption, of course, to the point of not finding this instance to be remarkable or peculiar. But how I FEEEEEL about it has no bearing.

Quote
But let me put it this way, I am supposed somehow to believe that a person who can barely articulate what day it is, who never drew a crowd the media didn't have to play camera angle tricks to make look like a funeral for someone unpopular in the rain, someone who can't get more than a couple of thousand people to follow their speeches, beat a guy who could easily pack a venue--a guy who got more votes than any sitting president in history, and was allegedly still beaten (after the 5 key states shut down and his numbers went vertical, all about the same time? And those Same jurisdictions are resisting attempts to verify those votes by any means necessary, including shredding ballots?

Sorry, but at some point the camel's back broke.

Alright. Let ME put it THIS way: Whine and cry. Throw dirt in the air. Pitch a fit, an advanced hissy.
Then what do you got? *nothing*, friend. Not a single damn thing until it is proven in a court of law.

And that is not a simple thing wrt elections. That requires a preponderance of evidence in a short time frame. The intention of the framers was that it was more important that the word is final than dickin with it incessantly... And I DO agree with that. NOW the thing will start to come out, a little here, a little there. And tiny little workerbee heads will roll. But this has been a swing-and-a-miss. And there ain't no sense in crying over spilled milk.

It is not that I am dispassionate about it. Nor even that I am in disagreement with you - I am quite tightly aligned. But that and five bucks will buy you a coffee.

And that is STILL no reason to convict by means of the court of public opinion.

Quote
I want to see a thorough investigation and the production of ALL the evidence, examination of software, logs, chains of custody, etc. But that isn't going to happen. Like Janet Reno used to say, "There is no evidence which exists....", and I believe the perpetrators have been doing all necessary to make sure none of that sees the light of day.

Hell, Yes, it was stolen.

I absolutely agree with that, and have been behind that reasoning all the way along... All that's left is the doin of it.
But as I said, and as I am still inclined - That's the hard part... As y'all are finding out.  :shrug:

Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #585 on: March 18, 2021, 01:31:50 pm »
What would you know about conservatives? You're obviously on here just to troll and argue.

No, I am here to DEFEND. And what I defend is precisely Conservatism.

All of it.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #586 on: March 18, 2021, 02:11:38 pm »
Even if I cede the point - Using that excuse leads to emperors. Is that where we are now? Rome all over again?


All the Americans realized that when they saw the election stolen before their very eyes.

You like to pretend the election wasn't stolen, leaving the Americans to wonder.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #587 on: March 18, 2021, 02:12:41 pm »
No, I am here to DEFEND. And what I defend is precisely Conservatism.

All of it.

Even that part that says the election was clearly stolen?

What about that part of conservatism that says we have to fight if we're ever going to have a hope of fixing things?
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #588 on: March 18, 2021, 02:15:48 pm »
No. Not within it's sovereign right and internal affairs.

It's not an internal affair for crap-hole states like MI, PA and WI among others to violate the Constitutional requirements that the legislatures determine how the state's electors are chosen for the Electoral College.

Which means all the normal states had the right to sue when those crap-holes stole the election.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #589 on: March 18, 2021, 02:17:49 pm »

That seven justices divorced themselves from the Constitution is what should put a burr in your saddle.



It certainly bothers all the conservatives.

If someone isn't bothered by it, they're certainly can't be interested in promoting the conservative cause.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #590 on: March 18, 2021, 02:20:55 pm »
All the Americans realized that when they saw the election stolen before their very eyes.

You like to pretend the election wasn't stolen, leaving the Americans to wonder.

No, I do not. You like to pretend that just because you say so, you don't have to prove it.
And you're wrong.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #591 on: March 18, 2021, 02:23:28 pm »
@Right_in_Virginia

No, they do NOT.

The Constitution rests the authority SOLELY in each state respectively, and in the legislature thereof specifically. The ONLY business there is is INTERNAL to the respective states. That a state official overstepped boundaries is a matter for the legislature to pick up. Since they did NOT, they tacitly approved of the action. Their standing, their business. If they don't chose to move on it, that is THEIR business.

Be careful what you wish for. Indeed the end game that y'all are messin with is New York having a say in how Montana does it's business. Good God y'all. Look at the precedent you want to set.

I understand the concept of original jurisdiction. That does NOT mean the court MUST pick it up. If the claim has no merit it SHOULD be rejected outright, or soon enough the court will be engulfed by nuisance suits aimed precisely at that: Being a nuisance, in the no-downside hope of the spaghetti sticking to the wall.

I am outright opposed to both your points.

And YOU are flat out wrong in this case my friend!  That part of the Constitution that lays out how electors are to be selected is definitely a part of the Constitution and the SOLE purpose for having a SCOTUS in the first place is to enforce that constitution!

SCOTUS has a duty to hear such cases and they flat out shirked that duty on December 11, 2020! The republic is DEAD as a result!

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #592 on: March 18, 2021, 02:23:42 pm »
Even that part that says the election was clearly stolen?

What about that part of conservatism that says we have to fight if we're ever going to have a hope of fixing things?

No, the part that says you have to PROVE it. And no, I will not go off half-cocked over what is little more than gossip.
You're not 'fighting' anything. You're pitchin a fit. That's a different thing.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #593 on: March 18, 2021, 02:24:20 pm »
It may be unique, but the pressure on the court is not, and original jurisdiction or not, the court can thankfully ignore spurious claims. Which is what seems to have happened.

It's a "spurious claim" to bring to the court solid evidence that enough states violated the Constitution and as a result wrongly altered the outcome of a presidential election?

Are you denying that the accused states did not pick their electors by invalid means?   The evidence is public record.

Are you claiming that the Court can neglect evidence of unconstitutional action by the states when it's POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT to do so?   Why was the Court set up with lifetime appointments?   That was on the theory that people with lifetime appointments would not be politically motivated.   You'll notice that I answered the question for you.

So, no, the reason the USSC did not hear this case was not because they were going to miss their tee-time.   The reason they rejected the case was that accepting the case meant the public fools who didn't already know about the electoral theft would have seen the evidence of it and that the judges who were supposed to be non-political were being totally political.


The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #594 on: March 18, 2021, 02:25:07 pm »
And YOU are flat out wrong in this case my friend! 

SCOTUS has a duty to hear such cases and they flat out shirked that duty on December 11, 2020! The republic is DEAD as a result!

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #595 on: March 18, 2021, 02:25:22 pm »
No, the part that says you have to PROVE it. And no, I will not go off half-cocked over what is little more than gossip.
You're not 'fighting' anything. You're pitchin a fit. That's a different thing.


It's a matter of public record.    Your juvenile insistence that it hasn't been proven is boring.

The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #596 on: March 18, 2021, 02:29:40 pm »
And YOU are flat out wrong in this case my friend! 

SCOTUS has a duty to hear such cases and they flat out shirked that duty on December 11, 2020! The republic is DEAD as a result!


Be careful what you wish for friend. I don't want New York governing Montana over water rights, environment, mining and such - Which they can do if Scotus is obligated to hear every case. The libs would immediately bury them in causes. FACT.

So no, there is an obligation, no doubt. But I do not expect it extends to the point of sitting through frivolous claims.
If it is wrong on its face, they are right to reject it outright.

And it goes against the most intimate part of Federalism, this idea that states can gang up and make another state bow. Rubs me wrong from the get-go.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #597 on: March 18, 2021, 02:31:12 pm »
No, I do not. You like to pretend that just because you say so, you don't have to prove it.
And you're wrong.

What part of the requirement that state legislatures determine the manner of the choosing of the electors is too difficult for you to comprehend?

Besides all of it?

What part of the fact that a court cannot alter the laws regarding the process of selecting the electors established by the legislature?

Besides all of it?

When part of the fact that no person in the executive branch of a state can alter the process of selecting the electors established by the legislatures have you failed to accept?

Besides all of it?

The job of a state's Secretary of State is to enforce the laws written by the state's legislature.   They have no authority to change ballot deadlines, signature requirements, poll closing times, nothing.   They are SECRETARIES.  They follow orders.

Judges can't alter anything, either.

Conservatives embrace the Constitution, not just the parts that let the Rodents steal elections.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #598 on: March 18, 2021, 02:34:38 pm »
Be careful what you wish for friend. I don't want New York governing Montana over water rights, environment, mining and such - Which they can do if Scotus is obligated to hear every case. The libs would immediately bury them in causes. FACT.

So no, there is an obligation, no doubt. But I do not expect it extends to the point of sitting through frivolous claims.
If it is wrong on its face, they are right to reject it outright.

And it goes against the most intimate part of Federalism, this idea that states can gang up and make another state bow. Rubs me wrong from the get-go.

@Bigun

Actually, if NY and MT had some dispute, no matter how the Rodents might deem it "frivolous" there are only two bodies to resolve the issue.

The Congress could get involved on commerce matters.

The Supreme Court is required to get involved on all the others.

That's it.

When it comes to the selection of electors, the Constitution is clear, and the Constitution was violated by the Rodents and Never-Trumping A-hole traitors who hate the Constitution.

And it IS the courts job to accept such a case when it comes before them.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #599 on: March 18, 2021, 02:35:39 pm »
Be careful what you wish for friend. I don't want New York governing Montana over water rights, environment, mining and such - Which they can do if Scotus is obligated to hear every case. The libs would immediately bury them in causes. FACT.

So no, there is an obligation, no doubt. But I do not expect it extends to the point of sitting through frivolous claims.
If it is wrong on its face, they are right to reject it outright.

And it goes against the most intimate part of Federalism, this idea that states can gang up and make another state bow. Rubs me wrong from the get-go.

@Bigun

I did not say EVERY case! What I said was Every case in which they have ORIGINAL jurisdiction!  But this notion of "standing" is also something made up out of whole cloth by the court itself during the progressive era and is spurious as hell to begin with.

Can you tell me just what the purpose of SCOTUS was intended to be if not to enforce the contract on all parties subject to it?

@roamer_1
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien