Gaming Out a MAGA Party

[Mesaclone]

And the backdrop to all this was the past four years, where the GOP pretty much held Trump by the nose while the rats tried to kick his *ss with the Russian Collusion farce, thusly robbing him of the larger share of his first term.

I am way past ready for a new party.

My gut tells me "F" these guys who aren't backing the President...but my head says the smart path is to get these fools out of power in the party and put Trump fully in charge...with his allies in place at every level of the party's mechanism. If we break the Right into opposed little pieces we all lose...its the old "if we don't hang together, we will all surely hang separately".

[catfish1957]

My gut tells me "F" these guys who aren't backing the President...but my head says the smart path is to get these fools out of power in the party and put Trump fully in charge...with his allies in place at every level of the party's mechanism. If we break the Right into opposed little pieces we all lose...its the old "if we don't hang together, we will all surely hang separately".

Agree.  The socialist are salivating at the possibility of a split GOP.

[bilo]

My gut tells me "F" these guys who aren't backing the President...but my head says the smart path is to get these fools out of power in the party and put Trump fully in charge...with his allies in place at every level of the party's mechanism. If we break the Right into opposed little pieces we all lose...its the old "if we don't hang together, we will all surely hang separately".

How many times has this been tried?

The Pubs always have a group of "moderates" who abandon the party on key issues and "reach across the aisle" to reach a compromise. Collins, Murkowski, Romney are just recent examples. Enough is enough, we will see who stands with us when the electors are protested in the Senate and a vote is required.

[roamer_1]

My gut tells me "F" these guys who aren't backing the President...but my head says the smart path is to get these fools out of power in the party and put Trump fully in charge...with his allies in place at every level of the party's mechanism. If we break the Right into opposed little pieces we all lose...its the old "if we don't hang together, we will all surely hang separately".

THIRTY DAMN YEARS. Bupkis.

[Mesaclone]

THIRTY DAMN YEARS. Bupkis.

Problem is, your only answer to the problem is "let it all go to hell" OR to split conservatives into opposing groups/parties, a sort of Balkanization of the right in the face of a united Left. Those choices are no more than simple surrender in the end so how does that make ANY sense strategically? 

And spare me the lecture that the there's no difference between a Ted Cruz/Donald Trump dominated GOP and the extreme Socialism being brought to us from the Left...there are miles of critical differences on nearly every issue. No one with either an ounce of common sense and/or a minimal education in political science could fail to see the differences here.

For the record, I "get" the frustration with the GOP saying it will reform and never doing so...I lived the Reagan years and before that just as you did. So my frustration is no less, but having 3 daughters...I'm not willing to run to the mountains and let the nation go to hell...nor am I willing to turn conservative against conservative. It seems, you are.

[Mesaclone]

How many times has this been tried?

The Pubs always have a group of "moderates" who abandon the party on key issues and "reach across the aisle" to reach a compromise. Collins, Murkowski, Romney are just recent examples. Enough is enough, we will see who stands with us when the electors are protested in the Senate and a vote is required.

We live in a Republic...we can't run a Ted Cruz in Maine and hope to win that seat in the Senate. So yes, our task...as Reagan would say...is to get the MOST conservative candidate who can actually win. Collins, sad as she may be, has been the deciding vote...along with a couple other squishies...on a host of conservative judiciary appointments up to and including the Supreme Court.

Party leadership must be staunchly conservative AND populist. But in Senate and House races we have to be pragmatic enough to actually win seats...because the minority party in congress can achieve...well...nothing.

[bilo]

We live in a Republic...we can't run a Ted Cruz in Maine and hope to win that seat in the Senate. So yes, our task...as Reagan would say...is to get the MOST conservative candidate who can actually win. Collins, sad as she may be, has been the deciding vote...along with a couple other squishies...on a host of conservative judiciary appointments up to and including the Supreme Court.

The return on those "conservative" jurists has been mixed at best. In all other areas these "squishes" have not been very helpful.

At some point we need to try something new. We've been doing the same thing over and over again and been losing ground to the socialists all the while.

My first choice is to separate from the USA, but if that can't be achieved my next choice is form a new party. If we do that at least we would wield real negotiating power. I don't believe any one party would have a clear majority, unless the "moderate" Pubs wanted to join the radical leftists and then it would be a short term majority for them.

I see no sense in supporting a Pub party that tolerates letting the Rats steal a Presidential election. If Pub Senators vote to accept swing state electors supporting Biden I see no need for that party.

[corbe]

   I have been anxiously awaiting this very conversation for weeks. 
  Thank you @bilo for posting the vehicle.   

[roamer_1]

Problem is, your only answer to the problem is "let it all go to hell" OR to split conservatives into opposing groups/parties, a sort of Balkanization of the right in the face of a united Left. Those choices are no more than simple surrender in the end so how does that make ANY sense strategically? 

No... My answer is not to let it all go to hell - It's going there anyway, and I refuse to help send it there any longer. Continuing an action that has reaped nothing in thirty years, and in fact has aided and abetted the left in numerous things... well that is just plain insane. After thirty friggin years, you can pretty well bet it ain't working. And it is not unreasonable to believe it will never work.

There is no opposition to liberalism. There is no opposition to globalism. Your leaders are not timid or feckless - They WANT where we are going.

And spare me the lecture that the there's no difference between a Ted Cruz/Donald Trump dominated GOP and the extreme Socialism being brought to us from the Left...there are miles of critical differences on nearly every issue. No one with either an ounce of common sense and/or a minimal education in political science could fail to see the differences here.

No difference at all. merely a facade and thin differences in objectives that really make no difference anywhere south of the levers of power. Otherwise there would be actual opposition - And as you can plainly see - There is not. Y'all are clinging to a fantasy that begins by forgetting Conservatism 101: The government is never 'here to help', even when you think it is helping you and you think your guys are in control. The principle is, and always has been, a government big enough to help you is big enough to enslave you. And I will die free.

 
For the record, I "get" the frustration with the GOP saying it will reform and never doing so...I lived the Reagan years and before that just as you did. So my frustration is no less, but having 3 daughters...I'm not willing to run to the mountains and let the nation go to hell...nor am I willing to turn conservative against conservative. It seems, you are.

It ain't frustration. It is bare fact. And it is YOUR government that threw fiscal conservatives under the bus... Not me.

[roamer_1]

[...] because the minority party in congress can achieve...well...nothing.

Exactly the very same as Republicans in power - NOTHING.

[Mesaclone]

No... My answer is not to let it all go to hell - It's going there anyway, and I refuse to help send it there any longer. Continuing an action that has reaped nothing in thirty years, and in fact has aided and abetted the left in numerous things... well that is just plain insane. After thirty friggin years, you can pretty well bet it ain't working. And it is not unreasonable to believe it will never work.

There is no opposition to liberalism. There is no opposition to globalism. Your leaders are not timid or feckless - They WANT where we are going.

No difference at all. merely a facade and thin differences in objectives that really make no difference anywhere south of the levers of power. Otherwise there would be actual opposition - And as you can plainly see - There is not. Y'all are clinging to a fantasy that begins by forgetting Conservatism 101: The government is never 'here to help', even when you think it is helping you and you think your guys are in control. The principle is, and always has been, a government big enough to help you is big enough to enslave you. And I will die free.

It ain't frustration. It is bare fact. And it is YOUR government that threw fiscal conservatives under the bus... Not me.

Simply defining the problem...which we all already know...is not a solution. What solution do you have to offer that doesn't simply divide conservatives into factions.

[roamer_1]

Simply defining the problem...which we all already know...is not a solution. What solution do you have to offer that doesn't simply divide conservatives into factions.

I have not divided them into factions. They ARE factions. The unity is found in supporting ALL of the immovable principles of ALL the factions. The moment you are willing to throw your brethren under the bus, the unity is lost and the factions dissolve away from the coalition.

I am the one, damn near the ONLY one screaming from the rooftops that we will indeed hang together or hang separately. In FAILING to adhere to those principles, purpose is out the window and all that is left is a populist caricature.

[catfish1957]

I am the one, damn near the ONLY one screaming from the rooftops that we will indeed hang together or hang separately. In FAILING to adhere to those principles, purpose is out the window and all that is left is a populist caricature.

Sticking a vodoo pin in the leader of the party who secured 70M votes while screaming party unity? Do your realize how contradictory you are coming across?

[roamer_1]

Sticking a vodoo pin in the leader of the party who secured 70M votes while screaming party unity? Do your realize how contradictory you are coming across?

UNITY AROUND WHAT? TO WHAT END?

Typical populism. A flash in the pan, a yard wide and a foot deep.
You don't rally around a man. What a ridiculous absurdity.

There is only one man that deserves that, and He ain't here yet.

Principle things. Not men.

[Mesaclone]

I have not divided them into factions. They ARE factions. The unity is found in supporting ALL of the immovable principles of ALL the factions. The moment you are willing to throw your brethren under the bus, the unity is lost and the factions dissolve away from the coalition.

I am the one, damn near the ONLY one screaming from the rooftops that we will indeed hang together or hang separately. In FAILING to adhere to those principles, purpose is out the window and all that is left is a populist caricature.

Conservatives...by huge margins...support the President BECAUSE he is fighting for conservative principles. You want to discard that...discard the President and the 70 million of us who voted for him. That's not a call for unity, that's an effort to pretend we are all false conservatives or hoodwinked morons fooled by the President. Sadly, you seeem to think you are somehow more principled than the rest of us....but quite simply...you are not. Only hubris would allow you to believe such a thing to start with. You are a free man and can do as you wish...of course...but let's be crystal clear about one thing. It is YOU who are being divisive...and dismissive of the many millions of conservatives who adamantly support our President.  Your idea of unity declares us all apostates...whilst YOU the "true" conservative sit on the sidelines in judgement.

So spare the lecture about how much you care about principles and uniting the right. You don't. You care about everyone else on the right aligning behind YOUR definition of conservatism....everyone else...the impure...can go pound sand.

[roamer_1]

Conservatives...by huge margins...support the President BECAUSE he is fighting for conservative principles. You want to discard that...discard the President and the 70 million of us who voted for him. You think you are more principled than the rest of us....quite simply...you are not. Only hubris would allow you to believe such a thing to start with. You are a free man and can do as you wish...of course...but let's be crystal clear about one thing. It is YOU who are being divisive...and dismissive of the many millions of conservatives who adamantly support our President.  Your idea of unity declares us all apostates...whilst YOU the "true" conservative sit on the sidelines in judgement.

So spare the lecture about how much you care about principles and uniting the right. You don't. You care about everyone else on the right aligning behind YOUR definition of conservatism....everyone else...the impure...can go pound sand.

So be it.

[Hoodat]

Simply defining the problem...which we all already know...is not a solution. What solution do you have to offer that doesn't simply divide conservatives into factions.

Not sure how you are going to be able to prevent the division between compromisers and non-compromisers.

[roamer_1]

Ain't worth speaking.

The dog returns to it's vomit. Again.

[Mesaclone]

Not sure how you are going to be able to prevent the division between compromisers and non-compromisers.

The answer....I believe...is an alliance between Trump and Cruz. These men represent the two key components of the party that MUST stay in alliance if we are to win back the nation. Trump's populism and Cruz's conservative credentials...and deep knowledge of the law and Republic....can pull the corners of the party together. There has to be a melding of those two powers and I would argue that together they could reshape the party without tossing out the baby, as they say.

[roamer_1]

The answer....I believe...is an alliance between Trump and Cruz. These men represent the two key components of the party that MUST stay in alliance if we are to win back the nation. Trump's populism and Cruz's conservative credentials...and deep knowledge of the law and Republic....can pull the corners of the party together. There has to be a melding of those two powers and I would argue that together they could reshape the party without tossing out the baby, as they say.

NOPE.

[Right_in_Virginia]

For the record, I "get" the frustration with the GOP saying it will reform and never doing so...I lived the Reagan years and before that just as you did. So my frustration is no less, but having 3 daughters...I'm not willing to run to the mountains and let the nation go to hell...nor am I willing to turn conservative against conservative. It seems, you are.

No, I don't think you "get" what has happened.  We are not witnessing an internal struggle within the GOP --- I wish we were @Mesaclone The GOP is united in its "let's move along" goal.  Sure, some are talking a good game, but that's only to get Georgians to overlook how screwed they have been by their own Party and keep McConnell in front of a microphone.

The Party has already kicked its own voters to the curb.  What, in the name of God, makes you think they're going to stand up for us now?  They've announced they will not consider the legal option of challenging fraudulently chosen electors, they've jettisoned removing Section 230 to protect the censorship rights of their Big Tech donors, by a unanimous vote they've increased Visas while American workers are unemployed by the millions.

You know they're going to surrender on everything from immigration to taxes to defunding the police; from American history to reparations.  Gun control?  Watch them prove the President right when he said over and over again "I'm the only thing standing between you and the end of your 2A rights".  A Biden investigation?  Nah.  Durham indictments?  Nah.  Oppose even one Biden nominee for one position?  Nah.  Stop the lockdowns?  Nah.  Push for Trump's economic recovery?  Nah.  Bow to China?  Sure.  Return us to the Paris Agreement?  Sure.  The Iran deal?  Sure.  Keep us in Afghanistan for another 20 years?  Sure.  Blow up peace in the Middle East?  Of course.

The Republicans in the Senate will return to their gangs of 6 or 8 or 12 for every issue.  They'll get rich on Chinese and Big Tech money.  They'll watch us die a slow death and lament how bad it all is as they jockey for position to win the Republican nomination for President because they're better than Biden.

Why can't you see this Republican Party will join in destroying the American dream, the American legacy and an American future?  The Republican Party is as self-centered and power hungry as the democrats, and neither do they care a whit about their voters.

Kill it.  Now.

[Right_in_Virginia]

The return on those "conservative" jurists has been mixed at best. In all other areas these "squishes" have not been very helpful.

At some point we need to try something new. We've been doing the same thing over and over again and been losing ground to the socialists all the while.

I see no sense in supporting a Pub party that tolerates letting the Rats steal a Presidential election. If Pub Senators vote to accept swing state electors supporting Biden I see no need for that party.

   @bilo

[roamer_1]

No, I don't think you "get" what has happened.  We are not witnessing an internal struggle within the GOP --- I wish we were @Mesaclone The GOP is united in its "let's move along" goal.  Sure, some are talking a good game, but that's only to get Georgians to overlook how screwed they have been by their own Party and keep McConnell in front of a microphone.

The Party has already kicked its own voters to the curb.  What, in the name of God, makes you think they're going to stand up for us now?  They've announced they will not consider the legal option of challenging fraudulently chosen electors, they've jettisoned removing Section 230 to protect the censorship rights of their Big Tech donors, by a unanimous vote they've increased Visas while American workers are unemployed by the millions.

You know they're going to surrender on everything from immigration to taxes to defunding the police; from American history to reparations.  Gun control?  Watch them prove the President right when he said over and over again "I'm the only thing standing between you and the end of your 2A rights".  A Biden investigation?  Nah.  Durham indictments?  Nah.  Oppose even one Biden nominee for one position?  Nah.  Stop the lockdowns?  Nah.  Push for Trump's economic recovery?  Nah.  Bow to China?  Sure.  Return us to the Paris Agreement?  Sure.  The Iran deal?  Sure.  Keep us in Afghanistan for another 20 years?  Sure.  Blow up peace in the Middle East?  Of course.

The Republicans in the Senate will return to their gangs of 6 or 8 or 12 for every issue.  They'll get rich on Chinese and Big Tech money.  They'll watch us die a slow death and lament how bad it all is as they jockey for position to win the Republican nomination for President because they're better than Biden.

Why can't you see this Republican Party will join in destroying the American dream, the American legacy and an American future?  The Republican Party is as self-centered and power hungry as the democrats, and neither do they care a whit about their voters.

Kill it.  Now.

WOW! Look! More beers! 

[corbe]

   Welcome to the club @Right_in_Virginia you seem to gloss over the fact that Your Dude ran it for 4 years (further into the Ground). 
   I do love the @Mesaclone post that anyway forward for the GOP, if there is any Hope, MUST include Sen. Cruz and if I'm permitted to elaborate on that, Trump must take a backseat (I know how absurd that sounds).

[Right_in_Virginia]

   Welcome to the club @Right_in_Virginia you seem to gloss over the fact that Your Dude ran it for 4 years (further into the Ground).     

Stop lying @corbe --- The President breathed life back into the GOP.  Many multiple tens of thousands registered as Republicans just to vote for Donald Trump, including in the primaries.  He won more votes as an incumbent in the primaries than any other President and he picked up 11 million more votes in 2020 than in 2016 --- receiving more votes in the general election than any other incumbent.  And, Donald Trump is the only force that is able to keep the Republican jackasses in Congress even close to keeping their promises and remembering who brought them to the dance.

Look, after all these years I'm finally tired of the game you drag me into.   I know you enjoy being biotch-slapped.  But ask someone else to do it ...  Thanks.