Gaming Out a MAGA Party

[Right_in_Virginia]

Well, I'm a pragmatist. I don't believe in doing something "feel good" that is likely to result in continuous electoral defeat. That's not really any better than surrender...as it cedes the struggle to the Socialists and simply tears conservatives into two opposing camps.

Really @Mesaclone ?  You think this would be a "feel good" move?  It's actually a necessary move.  The GOP is a dead political party.  The cause of death is suicide.

I am NOT proposing we keep doing the same old GOP dance...in which our side of the aisle is too weak and too full of RINO's/NT's to truly resist. What I'm suggesting is a new paradigm, no less forcing change than the forming of a "new" party would achieve...but far more likely to defeat the Left and restore a semblance of Constitutionalism in this country.

If you're proposing with keep the GOP, at all, you are proposing we keep doing the same old GOP dance.  The "new" paradigm has been tried before.... there's no tweaking the GOP, there's only ending it. And, IMO, "RINO" is the single, most absurd label in all of American politics.  RINOs ARE the GOP --- center right on one good day and proud of their flexibility and working with liberals for compromises all of the other days. 

Those who come to Washington through the Republican Party to reform our government from its corrupt, lawless, power hungry state deserve a better party.  Right now, they are absorbed by the Republican machine whether in the House or the Senate.  There is no fixing this government with the GOP as the "other" major party.  How many times must this be proven?

The Republican swamp is so confident of their position in Washington they are unafraid to piss on the 75+ million who voted for their candidate for President and make nice with the election thieves.  They don't even have to soften their intent -- we're going back to swamp normal.  Why try and save this monstrosity?

In this struggle, there is no such thing as "noble defeat"...and that is precisely what I believe the forming of a new conservative party guarantees...defeat. We have to uphold conservative principles and fight back...as the President is doing....but we must do so intelligently and in a way that makes strategic sense. We can't just hide in our cabins and declare ourselves in the right...that is sound and fury signifying...nothing..

Sorry, but I have no idea what your point is.  To me this reads like another word salad with the usual empty, but important sounding, dog whistles:   "intelligently", "strategic", "principles".  I'd be more than happy to be wrong, but this sounds like every GOPer before you talking himself out of taking bold action.
 

If we hope to take this country back, we have to persuade Americans of the "rightness" of our positions...spinning off into a hard right "new" party that can only garner 30-35% support accomplishes exactly nothing

Again, and respectfully, what the hell are you talking about?  We have already persuaded 75+ million Americans of the "rightness" of our positions, including:  --- the worthiness of our American legacy and inheritance; low taxes, fair trade, employment and American-based industry; a strong military, smart and fast military action; freedom of speech, religion and choice in education; true American sovereignty; Constitutional judges, the rule of law, not men; and the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Call this a "Conservative Party" and you will kill it.  After decades of bow ties, preaching and inaction "conservative" is a toxic label.  Enough with this label already.   We've brought "conservatism" out of the closet through MAGA --- let's not chase it away now.

[Mesaclone]

Really @Mesaclone ?  You think this would be a "feel good" move?  It's actually a necessary move.  The GOP is a dead political party.  The cause of death is suicide. The party IS the people who are in it...the same people in a new party does not make that new party different. What's needed is a removal of the swamp creatures from the current party. What must happen is the party itself must change....and certainly...no one is proposing the same old dance as you suggest. What I'm proposing, and I imagine the President himself will propose, is for the Right not to self destruct and surrender the country to the far Left. That's what is likely to occur if we split into a GOP with Trump...and some sort of "pure" conservative party that forms on the Right. In that scenario we lose every election at the national level.....is that supposed to be BETTER?

If you're proposing with keep the GOP, at all, you are proposing we keep doing the same old GOP dance.  The "new" paradigm has been tried before.... there's no tweaking the GOP, there's only ending it. And, IMO, "RINO" is the single, most absurd label in all of American politics.  RINOs ARE the GOP --- center right on one good day and proud of their flexibility and working with liberals for compromises all of the other days.  Well, the truth is you MUST have some flexibility and work with the opposing party when you lack a majority in both Houses and/or the White House....that IS our form of government. Winning an election does not suddenly give us absolute power to do everything we want. By declaring we should never compromise on ANY legislation, you're asserting we establish some sort of tyranny. Does that seem like a good idea? This does not mean we don't do as Reagan declared...get the MOST conservative legislation POSSIBLE at any given time. And we hold to the Bill of Rights like grim death...of course we do that...but this is a Republic, not an alternating oligarchy.

Those who come to Washington through the Republican Party to reform our government from its corrupt, lawless, power hungry state deserve a better party.  Right now, they are absorbed by the Republican machine whether in the House or the Senate.  There is no fixing this government with the GOP as the "other" major party.  How many times must this be proven? The Republican Party in its current state...I agree. It must be remade. I'd rather do so without surrendering the entire nation to the Left.

The Republican swamp is so confident of their position in Washington they are unafraid to piss on the 75+ million who voted for their candidate for President and make nice with the election thieves.  They don't even have to soften their intent -- we're going back to swamp normal.  Why try and save this monstrosity? I don't want to save it, I want to snap it into pieces and rebuild it.

Sorry, but I have no idea what your point is.  To me this reads like another word salad with the usual empty, but important sounding, dog whistles:   "intelligently", "strategic", "principles".  I'd be more than happy to be wrong, but this sounds like every GOPer before you talking himself out of taking bold action.
 
Again, and respectfully, what the hell are you talking about?  We have already persuaded 75+ million Americans of the "rightness" of our positions, including:  --- the worthiness of our American legacy and inheritance; low taxes, fair trade, employment and American-based industry; a strong military, smart and fast military action; freedom of speech, religion and choice in education; true American sovereignty; Constitutional judges, the rule of law, not men; and the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Call this a "Conservative Party" and you will kill it.  After decades of bow ties, preaching and inaction "conservative" is a toxic label.  Enough with this label already.   We've brought "conservatism" out of the closet through MAGA --- let's not chase it away now.

I feel all the frustration that you do. But taking actions that simply give the country to the Left and make things worse...I don't see the wisdom in that. What will you do if President Trump decides to take the GOP in hand and fix it....are you still going to jump into some new party and fight against him?

[roamer_1]

Well, I'm a pragmatist. [...]

 If we hope to take this country back, we have to persuade Americans of the "rightness" of our positions...spinning off into a hard right "new" party that can only garner 30-35% support accomplishes exactly nothing.

So more mushy and entirely unconvincing middle.
How very unappetizing.

[goatprairie]

The bigger the fraud, the greater the magnitude of the cheat, the more likely they are to be exposed. Much smarter to keep it focused and specific. As for your silly descriptions of the President, you are projecting your own feelings to others and that's just not the case for the vast majority of Republicans/Conservatives. You are part of a tiny minority within the party...a group of bitter "oh the horror" milque-toasts who buy into this baloney the Left peddles in trying to define the President. He IS of course a bit uncouth and sometimes crude...its the fighter in him...but just like extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, so too crudeness in the face of criminality and injustice is hardly worthy of note. Folks like yourself want to MAKE that the issue...which is being a "useful idiot" of the Left by distracting from the real issues over which the President is angered and disgusted (corruption and bias of the press, efforts to curb 2A rights, lying about how the nation met the Covid problem, etcetera.)

Stop being a useful idiot...which is essentially what the anti-Trump element of the party has become...and face the real enemy that Trump is fighting...Socialism and the end of the Republic.

All Trump is doing is trying to save face and fleece more people to pay off his campaign debts.
Remember when he said he couldn't be bought because he was funding his campaigns? He only self-funded maybe 20% of the 2016 campaign and close to zero of the 2020 campaign.
But keep sending in those campaign contributions. 

[goatprairie]

This lie about the President losing support over the last four years keeps getting repeated on this forum.  So I decided to look at all the Presidential incumbents since 1900 to see how their numbers fared.  Here is the list sorted by percentage gain over the previous  election.

From 1900 to 2012, only the bottom four in this list lost re-election.  And Trump ranked ahead of Clinton, Obama, Eisenhower, McKinley, and two of FDR's three bids.  So no, Trump did not lose support.  In fact, his gain in total votes was third highest on record.  So no, this isn't because Trump lost support.  It is because a number of votes were recorded on the other side that far exceeded election norms.

Year	President	Vote Gain (mil)	Percent Gain/Loss	Result
1972	NIXON	15.03	47.40	Won
1916	WILSON	2.84	45.07	Won
1984	REAGAN	10.55	24.04	Won
2004	GW BUSH	11.58	22.96	Won
1936	FDR	4.93	21.60	Won
2020	TRUMP	11.24	17.84	???
1996	CLINTON	2.49	5.55	Won
1956	IKE	1.80	5.33	Won
1900	McKINLEY	0.10	1.45	Won
1940	FDR	-0.51	-1.83	Won
2012	OBAMA	-3.58	-5.16	Won
1944	FDR	-1.64	-6.03	Won
1980	CARTER	-5.34	-13.08	Lost
1992	GHW BUSH	-9.78	-20.01	Lost
1932	HOOVER	-5.63	-26.32	Lost
1912	TAFT	-4.19	-54.63	Lost

Now explain to me how Trump can vastly outperform six other Presidents on that list, yet still end up with less votes than his challenger?

It was a lot easier for people to vote this year from the comfort of their homes due to the virus.
Biden got more votes than Trump. Seven or eight million more. That's how he lost.

[catfish1957]

Biden got more votes than Trump. Seven or eight million more. That's how he lost.

You really believe that? 

[goatprairie]

I don't care how much evidence is presented, there are a few Trump haters here who will not accept the obviously implausible.

The one that I was here, and personally watched was the "magical" pause in swing state  vote counting at the same time, with all pausing states reversing trends at the exact same time.  It had the feel of someone remotely flipping a switch.

Every allegation of massive fraud  has been refuted by the facts. Didn't you see red flags when Trump, who has called virtually every election he's lost a fraud, started claiming fraud before this election?
Trump was behind every Democrat candidate in every poll BEFORE the virus hit. He failed to close a closable gap because he just couldn't stop being himself. He probably lost a million votes just from the first debate when he acted like a churl.
Stop being gaslighted. Trump lost. Biden WILL!! be the president next Jan. 20, and there's nothing that Trump or any of the cranks, like Navarro, who toady up to him can do about it.

[goatprairie]

Who's to say Trump supporting politicians wouldn't join us.

That depends on how much Trump is willing to pay them. His past includes bribing a lot of pols some I assume were senators or other congress critters.

[goatprairie]

Really @Mesaclone ?  You think this would be a "feel good" move?  It's actually a necessary move.  The GOP is a dead political party.  The cause of death is suicide.

If you're proposing with keep the GOP, at all, you are proposing we keep doing the same old GOP dance.  The "new" paradigm has been tried before.... there's no tweaking the GOP, there's only ending it. And, IMO, "RINO" is the single, most absurd label in all of American politics.  RINOs ARE the GOP --- center right on one good day and proud of their flexibility and working with liberals for compromises all of the other days. 

Those who come to Washington through the Republican Party to reform our government from its corrupt, lawless, power hungry state deserve a better party.  Right now, they are absorbed by the Republican machine whether in the House or the Senate.  There is no fixing this government with the GOP as the "other" major party.  How many times must this be proven?

The Republican swamp is so confident of their position in Washington they are unafraid to piss on the 75+ million who voted for their candidate for President and make nice with the election thieves.  They don't even have to soften their intent -- we're going back to swamp normal.  Why try and save this monstrosity?

Sorry, but I have no idea what your point is.  To me this reads like another word salad with the usual empty, but important sounding, dog whistles:   "intelligently", "strategic", "principles".  I'd be more than happy to be wrong, but this sounds like every GOPer before you talking himself out of taking bold action.
 
Again, and respectfully, what the hell are you talking about?  We have already persuaded 75+ million Americans of the "rightness" of our positions, including:  --- the worthiness of our American legacy and inheritance; low taxes, fair trade, employment and American-based industry; a strong military, smart and fast military action; freedom of speech, religion and choice in education; true American sovereignty; Constitutional judges, the rule of law, not men; and the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Call this a "Conservative Party" and you will kill it.  After decades of bow ties, preaching and inaction "conservative" is a toxic label.  Enough with this label already.   We've brought "conservatism" out of the closet through MAGA --- let's not chase it away now.

yeah, it committed suicide in 2016 when we chose Trump over five or six other far better candidates. One third of the party fell for Trump's line of b.s., and now here we are facing at least four years of idiot leftism shoved down are throats.
Quit drinking the orange kool aid.

[catfish1957]

Every allegation of massive fraud  has been refuted by the facts. Didn't you see red flags when Trump, who has called virtually every election he's lost a fraud, started claiming fraud before this election?
Trump was behind every Democrat candidate in every poll BEFORE the virus hit. He failed to close a closable gap because he just couldn't stop being himself. He probably lost a million votes just from the first debate when he acted like a churl.
Stop being gaslighted. Trump lost. Biden WILL!! be the president next Jan. 20, and there's nothing that Trump or any of the cranks, like Navarro, who toady up to him can do about it.

You obviously sleep here at TBR.  There has been massive examples of accumulated fraud all through the close swing states the past month.  I can't help that you choose to ignore it.  . And gaslighted? You've taken that MSM bait....   Hook, ...Line, ...and Sinker.  I can't help you there man. 

And while you are it.  Put this in your plausibility pipe and smoke it...  (From an earlier thread) 

When you win a record low 17% of counties, lose Black & Hispanic support, lose 18/19 Bellwether Counties, lose Ohio, Florida, & Iowa -- and lose 27/27 House "Toss-Ups" -- but you shatter the popular vote record?

[goatprairie]

You really believe that?

How much of that "blatant" and "overwhelming" fraud that supposedly was so easy to see has Team Trump proved in court? Exactly  ZERO!!! They never even alleged fraud just voting irregularities which happens every election.

[skeeter]

Every allegation of massive fraud  has been refuted by the facts.

Every allegation of fraud has been gone completely unvetted by the media and the courts. They've steadfastly refused to allow the presentation of facts.

So, no, there has been no refutation.

Honestly I don't know where you get your news. But I can guess.

[catfish1957]

How much of that "blatant" and "overwhelming" fraud that supposedly was so easy to see has Team Trump proved in court? Exactly  ZERO!!! They never even alleged fraud just voting irregularities which happens every election.

[roamer_1]

Every allegation of fraud has been gone completely unvetted by the media and the courts. They've steadfastly refused to allow the presentation of facts.

So, no, there has been no refutation.

That's probably fair. But the primary problem is in the proving, and that has always been the case. It always IS the case. And that is why one must not believe what is lofted about in the public square... Hold out for what actually can be proven... Which so far has been damn little. 

[goatprairie]

Every allegation of fraud has been gone completely unvetted by the media and the courts. They've steadfastly refused to allow the presentation of facts.

So, no, there has been no refutation.

Honestly I don't know where you get your news. But I can guess.

I've read about every allegation. None of the claims of fraud have been proven to be true. And those claims of  fraud are not coming from Trump's lawyers. Team Trump did not even allege fraud in any of the court cases. They just claimed irregularities.
Then Texas, that big defender of state's rights, tried to interfere with Pennsylvania's electoral process and rightly got told to mind their own business by the SC. Texas had their own voting irregularities, but no other state tried to tell them what to do.
Trump is gaslighting you. He's telling everybody to jump, and they ask how high.
Quit falling for Trump's b.s.

[goatprairie]

I go to approximately ten different conservative websites daily including this one. I don't watch any of the alphabet networks or any of the cable shows like MSLSD.
My wife now has NUTSmax ..excuse me...Newsmax i.e. Conspiracy TV on hours daily as well as FOX.
Maybe somebody else is swallowing a load of orange-tinted propaganda, but they just won't admit it.

[Jazzhead]

Really @Mesaclone ?  You think this would be a "feel good" move?  It's actually a necessary move.  The GOP is a dead political party.  The cause of death is suicide.

The GOP doing just fine,  thank you.    Just ask Nancy Pelosi next year when a united GOP minority in the House flexes its muscle.   Just look at a united Senate and President who have installed conservative jurists up and down the federal bench.  That legacy will reverberate for decades.  We just need to keep the Senate, and for that we need to keep our eye on the prize.   

I do not dismiss Donald Trump;  to the contrary,   I am one "establishment"  Republican who's been won over to the pro-American,  pro-worker spin with which he's  imbued conservatism.   It will be a tragedy if his current sideshow becomes his legacy rather than the real prosperity he (and the GOP in Congress)  gave so many people.   

[Right_in_Virginia]

yeah, it committed suicide in 2016 when we chose Trump over five or six other far better candidates.

Bullshit.  Donald Trump did something for the Republican Party no Republican has been able to do for almost four decades:  He added members!

And in case you've forgotten:  Until Donald Trump, the GOP's raison d'être in the political arena was to provide the candidate for president primed and camera ready to lose to the Democrat. Kudos to you for doing it so well.   If you believe your nonsense about the GOP committing suicide by choosing Donald Trump -- then it's only because you prefer to lose elections -- gracefully, of course, and without tweeting.

One third of the party fell for Trump's line of b.s., and now here we are facing at least four years of idiot leftism shoved down are throats.

Let's be crystal clear about THIS:   You're facing at least four years of idiot leftism because the GOP is shoving it down your throat.  Everyone with two working brain cells knows the President won this election BIGLY.  But the swamp GOP wants to return to swamp normal ASAP -- you know, getting rich on foreign money, losing elections, and breaking their principles and promises. 

Your precious GOP is very busy surrendering to the "idiot leftists" and pissing all over the 75+ million Americans who reelected the President --- the very ones, BTW, who will flip you the bird on the way out the door and come back only to dance on your political party's grave.

Quit drinking the orange kool aid.

Quit drinking the hard stuff.  You're losing brain cells.   


@goatprairie

[Right_in_Virginia]

I feel all the frustration that you do. But taking actions that simply give the country to the Left and make things worse...I don't see the wisdom in that. What will you do if President Trump decides to take the GOP in hand and fix it....are you still going to jump into some new party and fight against him?

Your answer may be brilliant and life-altering --- but I can't make heads or tails out of your post versus my post in the large quote box. If you're so inclined, please provide the Cliffs Notes.  Thanks.

@Mesaclone

[corbe]

    @Jazzhead

[Right_in_Virginia]

Dan Bongino
@dbongino

"74 million Americans are not going to shut up!"

(Sen. Hawley) Video: https://rumble.com/vby74b-josh-hawley-shreds-dems-to-their-faces-for-mocking-americans-on-election-in.html?mref=22lbp&mc=56yab

11:00 AM · Dec 20, 2020·Hootsuite Inc.

https://twitter.com/dbongino/status/1340688459032387585

[Mesaclone]

Your answer may be brilliant and life-altering --- but I can't make heads or tails out of your post versus my post in the large quote box. If you're so inclined, please provide the Cliffs Notes.  Thanks.

@Mesaclone

RIV, if I have angered you I apologize from the bottom of my heart. I have always looked forward to reading your posts and respect your reasoning. I don’t agree with you on this but I understand why you feel as you do. Again, apologies if I have offended.

[Right_in_Virginia]

RIV, if I have angered you I apologize from the bottom of my heart. I have always looked forward to reading your posts and respect your reasoning. I don’t agree with you on this but I understand why you feel as you do. Again, apologies if I have offended.

I am offended @Mesaclone but not by anything you've said.   I apologize if I've not been clear about this.  I think we're closer to agreeing than you think.  If I understand you correctly, you see more obstacles to a new party than do I.  I think the time is so ripe the fruit is dripping on the vine. There is a natural leader and a ready made in the USA base of 75,000,000 Americans.  I also think the Republican brand -- across the board -- has so damaged itself it is beyond repair.

Put aside, for the moment, the media facilitating the Democrat fraud machine with early calls and accepting, without any investigation, the coordinated stopping of vote counting in five states — to allow those states to count phantom votes in darkness and inject them into the totals.  And put aside for another moment Big Tech for coordinating lies with the media and the Democrats; and the Republicans in the Senate refusing to include ending Section 230 in the defense bill as the President requested -— in spite of all their foot stomping about Big Tech’s censorship and influence.

Here's what has me spitting mad right now, Mesaclone -- and why this political party can't be thrown in the dustbin of history fast enough:

John Roberts, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Barrett. With one short, absurd press release they have potentially blocked all legal avenues open to the President.  Kudos to the administration for taking another direct shot at these four "constitutional judges".  We'll know this week just how corrupt our Supreme Court is.  If they prove -- again --  "constitutional" is a fluid legal concept, what the hell difference does it make if there are 7 or 27 bad apples sitting on the bench?

The Senate Committee Hearing on “Irregularities” in Voting where each Republican acknowledged serious, coordinated voter fraud -— and gave us their word they would, by God!, fix it so it doesn’t affect them-—next time.  And to date, only one Republican senator has even hinted he will rise in opposition to electors for Biden from swing states with corrupted elections.  ONE.  Democrats would have had them lining up around the block if circumstances were reversed.

Every Republican statehouse in the swing states and Georgia refuses -- just refuses -- to even debate exercising its Constitutional right to choose electors.  Republican statehouses.

Republican Governor Kemp is a flat out enemy of the Georgians who voted for him.  And the cherry on this parfait is he would not be in office today had the President not pulled his sorry ass across the finish line.  And don't start me on the Republican SOS.

And Republican Mitch McConnell, swamp creature extraordinaire, surrendered before dawn on Nov 4.  In his climactic speech last week from the well of the Senate he congratulated the President-elect for his victory capping his many years of "public service" and reminded his "Senate team" not to even think about supporting the President or his voters -- especially on Jan 6 -- or lose committee assignments.  In case this isn't clear, McConnell is the REPUBLICAN Senate Leader.

There was massive, coordinated fraud by the Democrat-Socialists. Everyone with two working brain cells knows this. The democrats counted on Republicans sacrificing the legal votes of their own political base for the illegal and often phantom votes of the noisy, scary Democrat base. And they were right.

Now Republican Georgians are being told to crawl across broken glass and vote in the same fraudulent system to save McConnell’s position.  Just. Do. It. 

And me?  I look at this and see just how disposable their voters are to state AND federal Republicans.  So I say give the Republicans in the US Senate the same courtesy and support they have provided the President of the United States, (the head of their political party) and to the Americans who know their votes were more than sufficient to keep Donald Trump in the Oval Office for a second term.  This is my version of "vote your conscience" with the added tagline: Join another political party.

[Mesaclone]

Thanks for the well thought out reply, RIV...as always. I value your thoughts on these issues and I think you are entirely correct that we are not that far apart on what we want.

The problem is clear. We lack sufficient GOP leaders with the courage and will to stand up for the Constitution...and for basic fairness in our electoral process. We face, nationally, a turning point in which the nation will go either towards or away from Constitutionality. We both agree radical change is needed in terms of leadership on the conservative side of the aisle...we can no longer afford the RINO/Swamp creature approach of the Romney/Bush wing.

How we address that and emerge with a stronger and more focused party on the Right...while still being able to retain the support of 50% of American voters...is the task at hand.

I think you and I agree that the only man who can lead this reform/rebuild movement is President Trump....unfortunately, too many on the Right (roamer, goat, and some others here are emblematic) who would rather die than follow the President in the formation of a new party. They want more of a "purist" neo-con style new party and consider Trump to be an NY liberal heretic in terms of conservative doctrine (and yes, that is delusional on their part). So if these folks won't follow Trump in the founding of a new conservative party...and folks like you and I are committed to fighting alongside the President in a new party...it seems there is no way to reconcile these differences.

If Trump forms a MAGA party, the "soft" wing of the Right will stay in the GOP because they fear losing power....the "hard-purist" wing of the Right won't join Trump because they see him as an apostate to conservatism (they hate his populist approach and won't accept that he's changed since his earlier NY days as a moderate-much like Reagan changed I might add). So what we will have, in my opinion, is a new MAGA party in which perhaps 35-40% of current Republicans are willing to migrate...a remnant GOP retaining a similar number of voters...and a hard Right "doctrinal" party with 20-25%. In effect, the Right will consist of 3 parties in a death struggle facing a united Socialist-Left (united electorally if not doctrinally). In that scenario, Socialism wins...perhaps for a full generation.

If Trump stays in the GOP and shapes into a genuine MAGA supporting party...pushing out as many RINO's and hard core NT's as he can...THAT party has a chance to be a real electoral force in 2022 and moreso in 2024. There ARE some strong and rising conservatives in the GOP...Ted Cruz, Dan Crenshaw, Meadows, Gaetz, Biggs, Gosar, Blackburn, Cotton...heck, even Rubio has the 10th most conservative voting record in the Senate...and many others. And frankly, a lot of these strong conservatives would not leave for a 3rd party...Cruz for example, would almost certainly stay and fight to refit the GOP and to lead it in the absence of President Trump (were he to start a MAGA party).

I know you want a party that is true to conservatism. I know you want to defeat the Socialist Left and restore Constitutionalism in the United States. I think nearly all of us on this board want that. But achieving that can't be done by breaking the right into opposing fragments in my opinion. If we have leaders like Cruz, Trump, and others fighting each other and not the Left...while in opposing parties on the Right...we will have no real hope to win elections in the foreseeable future. That's just my opinion, of course, and I don't claim it to be better or clearer than your own...but I do hope you'll consider some of what I'm saying.

[skeeter]

I am offended @Mesaclone but not by anything you've said.   I apologize if I've not been clear about this.  I think we're closer to agreeing than you think.  If I understand you correctly, you see more obstacles to a new party than do I.  I think the time is so ripe the fruit is dripping on the vine. There is a natural leader and a ready made in the USA base of 75,000,000 Americans.  I also think the Republican brand -- across the board -- has so damaged itself it is beyond repair.

Put aside, for the moment, the media facilitating the Democrat fraud machine with early calls and accepting, without any investigation, the coordinated stopping of vote counting in five states — to allow those states to count phantom votes in darkness and inject them into the totals.  And put aside for another moment Big Tech for coordinating lies with the media and the Democrats; and the Republicans in the Senate refusing to include ending Section 230 in the defense bill as the President requested -— in spite of all their foot stomping about Big Tech’s censorship and influence.

Here's what has me spitting mad right now, Mesaclone -- and why this political party can't be thrown in the dustbin of history fast enough:

John Roberts, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Barrett. With one short, absurd press release they have potentially blocked all legal avenues open to the President.  Kudos to the administration for taking another direct shot at these four "constitutional judges".  We'll know this week just how corrupt our Supreme Court is.  If they prove -- again --  "constitutional" is a fluid legal concept, what the hell difference does it make if there are 7 or 27 bad apples sitting on the bench?

The Senate Committee Hearing on “Irregularities” in Voting where each Republican acknowledged serious, coordinated voter fraud -— and gave us their word they would, by God!, fix it so it doesn’t affect them-—next time.  And to date, only one Republican senator has even hinted he will rise in opposition to electors for Biden from swing states with corrupted elections.  ONE.  Democrats would have had them lining up around the block if circumstances were reversed.

Every Republican statehouse in the swing states and Georgia refuses -- just refuses -- to even debate exercising its Constitutional right to choose electors.  Republican statehouses.

Republican Governor Kemp is a flat out enemy of the Georgians who voted for him.  And the cherry on this parfait is he would not be in office today had the President not pulled his sorry ass across the finish line.  And don't start me on the Republican SOS.

And Republican Mitch McConnell, swamp creature extraordinaire, surrendered before dawn on Nov 4.  In his climactic speech last week from the well of the Senate he congratulated the President-elect for his victory capping his many years of "public service" and reminded his "Senate team" not to even think about supporting the President or his voters -- especially on Jan 6 -- or lose committee assignments.  In case this isn't clear, McConnell is the REPUBLICAN Senate Leader.

There was massive, coordinated fraud by the Democrat-Socialists. Everyone with two working brain cells knows this. The democrats counted on Republicans sacrificing the legal votes of their own political base for the illegal and often phantom votes of the noisy, scary Democrat base. And they were right.

Now Republican Georgians are being told to crawl across broken glass and vote in the same fraudulent system to save McConnell’s position.  Just. Do. It. 

And the backdrop to all this was the past four years, where the GOP pretty much held Trump by the nose while the rats tried to kick his *ss with the Russian Collusion farce, thusly robbing him of the larger share of his first term.

I am way past ready for a new party.