Author Topic: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2  (Read 180238 times)

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Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1325 on: April 17, 2020, 08:21:50 pm »
Cool beans.

This makes it ours now, I think.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1326 on: April 17, 2020, 08:53:45 pm »
I wonder if that's the same US intelligence that spent all that time ginning up stuff to feed the FBI (even though they don't do domestic work) to try to impeach the President.

What did who know and when did they know it, and why was it not brought to the POTUS' attention by the Intel agencies and the CDC< and all the people whose job it is to make damned sure the message gets through?

Besides, if it was in November, then the whole "wet market" fairy tale falls flat on it's keester.
At the indicated timeframes, they were between Spygate, Meuller report, Russia-gate, Ukraine-gate, Impeachment.

Adam Shitt, Nan from shitty San Fran, Shumer,  and Jerold thin-man Nadler, couldn't have possibly been interested in the safety of America.

LTC Vindman was still considering his offer to head Unraine's military forces. Dr. Hill, was waiting instructions from Russia, how to proceed next.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Online Hoodat

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1327 on: April 17, 2020, 09:34:44 pm »
04-17-2020 | 21:04 GMT

REGIONRecov:Death     Cases:Recov
Global (excluding China & US)  3.857 ↑  3.364 ↓
United States  1.605 ↓ 11.822 ↑
China 16.827 ↓  1.061 ↑

US 14-day Recovery Deficit - 179,009
Recovery Rate after 14 days - 21.5 %  ↓
Recovery Rate after 21 days - 63.0 %  ↓

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


Big jump in China fatalities, proving their numbers cannot be trusted.  Recoveries in US still going unreported.  37% of survivors infected 3 weeks ago still not listed as 'recovered'.  The political stakes are growing.  Lines are being drawn.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1328 on: April 17, 2020, 11:29:40 pm »
I'm not sure Trump will do anything to China.  He keeps talking about how great China is, which is NOT what I would be saying right now.

It does not matter if the release of the virus from the lab in Wuhan was intentional or unintentional, China is responsible.  With that said, they should pay for the lion's share of cost for this outbreak.

I would like to see the end of trade with China.  I do not mind paying more for products, and the fact is, I have been boycotting China products froM the day it was discovered they were putting poison in their baby formula.  Notably, dog products are largely from China and India, but I look for USA only.  I will not subject my dog to eating anything from those two countries.  And the same for other products, and I have noticed Made in the USA does not mean COST MORE.  Most USA products are comparable and at times cheaper.

SO, I BUY PRODUCTS MADE IN THE USA FIRST, AND THEN MADE ANYWHERE ELSE BUT CHINA SECOND.  BEEN DOING THAT FOR YEARS!!!   F*&^ CHINA!!!

Oh, the Bard...(hopefully)

Mark Antony at the Forum...Act 3, Scene 2, Julius Caesar
Quote
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest--
For Brutus is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men--
Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral.
Later in the scene...
Quote
O masters, if I were disposed to stir
Your hearts and minds to mutiny and rage,
I should do Brutus wrong, and Cassius wrong,
Who, you all know, are honourable men:
I will not do them wrong; I rather choose
To wrong the dead, to wrong myself and you,
Than I will wrong such honourable men.

and then...

Quote
Will you be patient? will you stay awhile?
I have o'ershot myself to tell you of it:
I fear I wrong the honourable men
Whose daggers have stabb'd Caesar; I do fear it.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1329 on: April 17, 2020, 11:31:07 pm »
At the indicated timeframes, they were between Spygate, Meuller report, Russia-gate, Ukraine-gate, Impeachment.

Adam Shitt, Nan from shitty San Fran, Shumer,  and Jerold thin-man Nadler, couldn't have possibly been interested in the safety of America.

LTC Vindman was still considering his offer to head Unraine's military forces. Dr. Hill, was waiting instructions from Russia, how to proceed next.
Exactly!
They were more focused on the coup attempt than the safety of the United States.
Not just Dereliction of Duty, but giving aid and comfort ...
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DB

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1330 on: April 18, 2020, 03:35:16 am »

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1331 on: April 18, 2020, 03:54:24 am »
"Recovery from coronavirus may not confer immunity, warn experts"

https://www.france24.com/en/20200417-recovery-from-coronavirus-may-not-confer-immunity-warn-experts

This is very interesting. This is strictly my opinion. Reading the article, they are saying the virus doesn't mutate to reinfect. They are saying the virus has somehow decided to form a different approach than other illnesses. It has armed itself with the ability to strike, in a military way, through a number of different options. Natural viruses don't do that. Not within a short time frame. Thanks for the post, @DB.

She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1332 on: April 18, 2020, 04:01:59 am »
This is very interesting. This is strictly my opinion. Reading the article, they are saying the virus doesn't mutate to reinfect. They are saying the virus has somehow decided to form a different approach than other illnesses. It has armed itself with the ability to strike, in a military way, through a number of different options. Natural viruses don't do that. Not within a short time frame. Thanks for the post, @DB.
Yep, They said:
Quote
Another pre-publication study that looked at 175 recovered patients in Shanghai showed different concentrations of protective antibodies 10 to 15 days after the onset of symptoms.

"But whether that antibody response actually means immunity is a separate question," commented Maria Van Kerhove, Technical Lead of the WHO Emergencies Programme.

"That's something we really need to better understand -- what does that antibody response look like in terms of immunity."

Indeed, a host of questions remain.

"We are at the stage of asking whether someone who has overcome COVID-19 is really that protected," said Jean-Francois Delfraissy, president of France's official science advisory board.

...but they also said this:
Quote
"The only real solution for now is a vaccine," Archie Clements, a professor at Curtin University in Perth Australia, told AFP.

How do vaccines work? You produce antibodies...

Someone is giving us a smoke enema.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1333 on: April 18, 2020, 04:56:36 am »
Yep, They said:
...but they also said this:
How do vaccines work? You produce antibodies...

Someone is giving us a smoke enema.

I am not a vaccine expert. In my small understanding a vaccine targets a specfic feature of the disease. the polio vaccine. The smallpox vaccine, etc.

How can "they" say that a vaccine is the only solution when they can't target the specific trait?

I am not an antivaxxer. I have spent time overseas in third word shitholes. And apparently didn't die from the specific diseases or vaccinations recommended. Not to mention the vaccines I had as a kid here. I have had an initial and two followups vaccinations for RABIES. Prolly need another shot the way I've been foaming at the mouth here.

I have a high interest in defeating treatable diseases. My Hep C. I admit it. I gave it up. I was so sick when I got to the point of trying an opioid for the pain and that didn't help I was done. A part of that was I felt shame for letting myself and my family down. My wife got me by the balls, beat me about the face and ears, and told me I wasn't done. She said  I saved her because she married a MAN. And she could save me because she understood that she had the strength to be a WOMAN.

That might sound weird. Maybe I phrased it poorly.

I joined this forum in search of a friend I wanted to say goodbye to. Lost from TOS. I found them FWIW, but here, here, I found somethng even better than a friend. I found a family.

This is going to sound even weirder. There was no need for me to continue my robot 2 thread. All of you all ya'll done did it tomorrow.

Yeah. That smoke enema.Tomorrow. Either we are clear of this shit. Or we are clear on this shit.

 
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1334 on: April 18, 2020, 05:52:33 am »


This guy was at a rona rally today.  Looks fake to me.  Why is he wearing a mask?

Offline DB

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1335 on: April 18, 2020, 05:55:01 am »
Yep, They said:
...but they also said this:
How do vaccines work? You produce antibodies...

Someone is giving us a smoke enema.

I noticed that too. It antibodies only last a few years then perhaps they are implying that you can get vaccinated every so many years keeping your immunity up. Essentially a booster shot. If that could be done world wide for a few years the virus ought to be eradicated.

Another big question is if you can get it again do your antibodies from a previous go around significantly lessen the symptoms the next time even after a long period of time? If it were far less severe then getting it again isn't as big a deal. If that isn't the case, that's pretty concerning.

Strange how this virus seems to be so different than how corona type viruses normally behave...
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 05:59:51 am by DB »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1336 on: April 18, 2020, 05:55:59 am »
I am not a vaccine expert. In my small understanding a vaccine targets a specfic feature of the disease. the polio vaccine. The smallpox vaccine, etc.

How can "they" say that a vaccine is the only solution when they can't target the specific trait?

I am not an antivaxxer. I have spent time overseas in third word shitholes. And apparently didn't die from the specific diseases or vaccinations recommended. Not to mention the vaccines I had as a kid here. I have had an initial and two followups vaccinations for RABIES. Prolly need another shot the way I've been foaming at the mouth here.

I have a high interest in defeating treatable diseases. My Hep C. I admit it. I gave it up. I was so sick when I got to the point of trying an opioid for the pain and that didn't help I was done. A part of that was I felt shame for letting myself and my family down. My wife got me by the balls, beat me about the face and ears, and told me I wasn't done. She said  I saved her because she married a MAN. And she could save me because she understood that she had the strength to be a WOMAN.

That might sound weird. Maybe I phrased it poorly.

I joined this forum in search of a friend I wanted to say goodbye to. Lost from TOS. I found them FWIW, but here, here, I found somethng even better than a friend. I found a family.

This is going to sound even weirder. There was no need for me to continue my robot 2 thread. All of you all ya'll done did it tomorrow.

Yeah. That smoke enema.Tomorrow. Either we are clear of this shit. Or we are clear on this shit.
I'm not an expert either, Fred.  But I do know vaccines cause the body to develop antibodies against a specific disease so the body can stop it before it gets started..
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1337 on: April 18, 2020, 06:27:09 am »

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1338 on: April 18, 2020, 07:27:02 am »
They are closing so many businesses down that it forces people to shop in the ones that are open. More people together stuck in a larger line for an extended period of time. Stores that would be glad to have a customer forced to close in favor of stores that are forced to limit the number of customers, and cashiers, that on a daily basis were short wait stores. Stupid.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline catfish1957

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1339 on: April 18, 2020, 12:43:22 pm »


This guy was at a rona rally today.  Looks fake to me.  Why is he wearing a mask?

Left wing staged fake photo, kind of like the "Moran" one. 
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1340 on: April 18, 2020, 01:35:46 pm »
It is a given that the Chinese are evil,soulless bastards,so has anyone else considered the possibility that this virus is a result of the Chinese trying to create a vaccine they can use for their own troops before they set loose a deadlier virus on the world?

Since they may be among the least creative  people in the world,it backfired on them and their "vacinnation" got out of the lab and morphed into a virus,itself?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Online Bigun

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1341 on: April 18, 2020, 01:41:57 pm »
@Smokin Joe  @bigheadfred

I've had two flu shots in my life taken approx 40 years apart both nearly killed me so there will not be a third and neither will I take one for this virus.

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline mountaineer

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1342 on: April 18, 2020, 01:43:44 pm »
Mr. M told me he heard a statistic repeated on the news yesterday that 70% of the virus deaths have been of overweight people.
Quote
Regular exercise can help protect from severe coronavirus complication
By Vincent Barone
April 17, 2020 | 11:38pm

When it comes to fighting the coronavirus, exercise is preventative medicine, according to one new study.

Regular cardiovascular workouts may help protect future coronavirus patients from developing a severe complication and major cause of death known as acute respiratory distress syndrome, according to research from Zhen Yan of the University of Virginia School of Medicine.

Yan, the director of the Center for Skeletal Muscle Research at UVA’s Robert M. Berne Cardiovascular Research Center, recommends 30 minutes of cardiovascular training every day to help ward off the respiratory disease. ...
More at NY Post

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1343 on: April 18, 2020, 01:55:01 pm »
Mr. M told me he heard a statistic repeated on the news yesterday that 70% of the virus deaths have been of overweight people.More at NY Post

Left unremarked, these are people who consider 70% of the total population is "obese."
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1344 on: April 18, 2020, 01:55:19 pm »
@Smokin Joe  @bigheadfred

I've had two flu shots in my life taken approx 40 years apart both nearly killed me so there will not be a third and neither will I take one for this virus.
I have never had a flu shot.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1345 on: April 18, 2020, 01:58:17 pm »
I have a high interest in defeating treatable diseases. My Hep C. I admit it. I gave it up. I was so sick when I got to the point of trying an opioid for the pain and that didn't help I was done. A part of that was I felt shame for letting myself and my family down. My wife got me by the balls, beat me about the face and ears, and told me I wasn't done. She said  I saved her because she married a MAN. And she could save me because she understood that she had the strength to be a WOMAN.

That might sound weird. Maybe I phrased it poorly.

Doesn't sound weird to me, at all.  I've "spoken" with her on Bookface, a fantastic lady, for which you are a lucky man...no...a wealthy man.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline mountaineer

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1346 on: April 18, 2020, 02:01:49 pm »
I have never had a flu shot.
I haven't, either, nor the other recommended vaccinations (pneumonia, shingles). No vaccination at all, in fact, since the last measles shot as a child, which gave me a mild case. In all my decades of life without a flu shot, I've actually had the flu fewer than three times.

Offline Neverdul

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Offline Idiot

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1348 on: April 18, 2020, 03:42:54 pm »
I haven't, either, nor the other recommended vaccinations (pneumonia, shingles). No vaccination at all, in fact, since the last measles shot as a child, which gave me a mild case. In all my decades of life without a flu shot, I've actually had the flu fewer than three times.
I take the flu shot every year and have never had a bad reaction to the shot.  A company I do some work for gave all of their employees flu shots and the very next week 3/4's them had the flu.  The Dr. giving the shot said it was impossible...but...there it happened.  I plan on getting a pneumonia shot when all of this virus crap goes away.  I have a good friend that took 2 different pneumonia shots, then came down with pneumonia a couple of years later that almost killed him.  So then there's that.....lol.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Coronavirus, comprehensive and updates discussion 2
« Reply #1349 on: April 18, 2020, 04:13:27 pm »
Okay, let's look at this
From the NY Post article: https://nypost.com/2020/04/17/regular-exercise-can-help-protect-from-severe-coronavirus-complication/

Quote
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has estimated between 20 and 42 percent of all patients hospitalized with COVID-19 will develop ARDS.

Research predating the pandemic suggested that approximately 45 percent of patients who develop severe ARDS will die, according to a news release from the University of Virginia Health System.

Using real numbers from ND, of 439 cases, 47 were hospitalized (11%). 
Using the high estimation of 42%, 4.5% of the original total will develop ARDS, 2% of the original number will die.
Using the low estimation of 20%, 2.1% of the original total will develop ARDS, or just under 1% of the original total will die.

Testing the model, without any consideration of other factors, that means that of the 439 cases in ND, at the high end 9 deaths would be expected, at the low end, 4 deaths. While cases remain unresolved, there have been 9 deaths in the State. Age group from 50 to 80+, skewed toward the higher ages, and all with "underlying medical conditions".

Those numbers work out, but that does not address specific cause/effect relationships, only statistics that might be the same for people who consume products containing water, without more specific information.

Getting back to the original "Underlying Medical Conditions" which were originally used to define increased risk,

Heart disease
Hypertension
Diabetes
COPD and other pulmonary issues
Cancer (likely due to immune compromise from chemo/radiation)
HIV/AIDS

While age and obesity have been brought up, repeatedly, the likelihood of the above conditions (except HIV/AIDS which is behaviourally controlled) generally increases with age and obesity, so if we look at why age and obesity are factors, we get back to those same underlying medical conditions. The only other factor might be that obesity increases the amount of inflammation present in the body, which may contribute to the overall potential for ARDS.

The other numbers ....Of 439 cases, and the 47 hospitalized, only 16 remained in hospital. Thirty one of those cases were resolved, and assuming the 9 folks who died were in hospital at the time, shows that 71% of those who went into the hospital and whose cases are resolved survived. Sixteen cases are pending, and those numbers could go either way, up or down.
Presently, of the 439 positive cases, 41% are resolved (181), 95% of those are recovered (172), and 59% are yet to be resolved.
There is no data on whether the Hydroxychloroquine/Z-pack/Zinc Sulfate regimen has been used, nor whether the treatments for HAPE (High Altitude Pulmonary Edema) have been used on critical patients exhibiting ARDS symptoms, so the efficacy of those courses of treatment cannnot be commented on in this context.

While 2% of those who tested positive in ND have died, and 59% of cases remain unresolved, the other number is this: 12,342 had been tested as of !!:00 CDT yesterday's report. Of those, 11903 tested negative. Only 3.6% tested positive, of those tested, of those tested, 0.07% have died of COVID-19.   
Trends:
It is too early to be breathing sighs of relief, here.
The number of active cases has been steadily increasing, leveling off every 4 days, after the 4 day interval peaks in new cases. The number of positive tests jumped by the greatest number of new cases just yesterday, by 46 new cases, though only 16 remain in hospital statewide. Overall, sharpest increases in new cases appear four days apart, and yesterday's reported peak was no exception (data up to April 16th).
While past performance is no indication of future returns, it is unlikely we have peaked here yet.
 
22 of 53 counties report no cases at all.
13 counties have only one, nine other counties from 2 to 5 cases.

Human factors:
Spread, as noticed after the initial case, has been generally along the I-94 corridor and the US 2 corridor, east/west transportation links.
The four major north/south highways I-29 in the East (Fargo to Grand Forks and north) Hwy52/281 between Jamestown and Devil's Lake, Highway 83 (Bismarck/Mandan to Minot) and Highway 85 (North from the State line w/S. Dakota to Williston and north) transect other counties also with cases, the exceptions being Benson County south of Devil's Lake, and Trail and Pembina counties in the East side of the State, the former between Fargo and Grand Forks (where people would fuel up and drive through, as a rule) and Pembina County being next to the Canadian Border, and likely not getting much non-local traffic since the outbreak.

The highest numbers of cases are in counties with cities with larger populations in the State, Fargo, Bismarck/Mandan, Dickinson along the I-94 corridor, and Grand Forks and Minot, along the  US 2 corridor.

Cass County, Where I-29 and I-94 cross at Fargo, has the highest number of confirmed cases, accounting for 42% of the cases in the State. Sixty nine percent are in counties along I-94.
 
There is no indication that there was spread associated with the first case known in the State, who was a rural resident in Ward county who self isolated and recovered at home.

Reopening the State for business: When it happens, will be data driven, and not on a set time frame, according to the announcements from the Governor and Dept of Health.
I'm fine with that over some arbitrary timeline, and would be okay with that on a county by county basis, even, with the caveat that some services may cause people to cross county lines and ultimately bring the infection to areas that currently do not have any cases at all.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis