Doctors Treating Coronavirus Told to Discriminate Against Elderly Patients: They “Will be Left to Di

[DB]

And that is the central flaw in any socialist scheme.  Leftists choose to ignore the innovation factor, except to say government has to do it.  They are perpetually surprised to learn that R&D is mostly done in the private sector, and not the government.

I tend to value our innovation more than many others because I would already be dead without it and I'm 58 years old now...

[Smokin Joe]

And that is the central flaw in any socialist scheme.  Leftists choose to ignore the innovation factor, except to say government has to do it.  They are perpetually surprised to learn that R&D is mostly done in the private sector, and not the government.

Right. It's like pointing to many of the 'advanced' features of Chinese or Soviet Russian military materiel, just to find that they are either knock-offs (stolen?/Clinton Server sale?) of ours or each others' designs.

[mystery-ak]

Dexter? Banned?

He wanted me to delete his account...when you delete an account all their posts are gone with him....We granted his wish and banned him....not sure why.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Anecdote: TRIAGE.

Had lunch with fellow boardmember for our non-profit.

I mentioned the Italy storyfrom (One Doctor and One report) about "Triage."

He said he is a trained "first responder, and he knows about triage.

I don't think the circumstances here in the US warrant a triage response.  But if that changes survivability will factor heavily into the use of medical care and supplies.

"Survivability" is already factored into insurance coverage of certain procedures .... regardless of age.  The new "Right to Try" law recently passed is the long-sought loophole around this barrier allowing patients to opt into trials while releasing the drug companies of liability.

[Cyber Liberty]

Leftists think private companies have to be "forced" by the government to do things, and don't understand that companies innovate and improve worker safety for their own, legitimate reasons.  Adam Smith's dead hand wins every time.

[Right_in_Virginia]

As annoying as he may be he does force us to think about how to present our case. On the other hand he really loves to just blow off a factual rebuttal without any actual argument against it and move the goal post somewhere else...

Agree @DB  He was also a millennial.  Dexter debated issues from his personal worldview .... and not without some courage. 

It is in all of our interests to understand this worldview; to debate --- interview, if you will --- someone about to take the reins of power.   We might have learned the most effective way to reform his self-defeating worldview.  All we learned is sarcasm and dismissals don't work. 

We had much to learn from Dexter---that he is no longer a Briefer is a missed opportunity.   

[Smokin Joe]

Agree @DB  He was also a millennial.  Dexter debated issues from his personal worldview .... and not without some courage. 

It is in all of our interests to understand this worldview; to debate --- interview, if you will --- someone about to take the reins of power.   We might have learned the most effective way to reform his self-defeating worldview.  All we learned is sarcasm and dismissals don't work. 

We had much to learn from Dexter---that he is no longer a Briefer is a missed opportunity.   

Unfortunately, sometimes, he didn't debate at all. He either dismissed or ignored evidence that he, himself, had said should be provided. At that point, there is no discussion of the very things which refute his position, and any meaningful debate is lost to one-sided demagoguery being besieged with reason.
While I have noted this is a common behaviour pattern among Leftists and those who have no desire to engage in meaningful discourse, I'm not sure that is a valuable contribution after pages of successive iteration of the same old thing.

[truth_seeker]

I’m not gonna pick on him too much because he’s not here to defend himself but at times he was able to defend his argument with a link or something but too often his response was to summarily dismiss information  that he did not want to hear and that is a human trait that we all fall victim to from time to time


  But back to the subject at hand. I saw a blip on the news where the US has something like 96,000 ICU beds and by the time this virus runs it’s course, we could have 200,000 individuals needing them. I think there’s going to be some very tough, heart wrenching decisions made in this country  should that come to pass and I pray it doesn’t

1. Why is ICU care needed for treatment for this disease?

2. Could effective care be given, by less costly, complicated resources?

3.  If needed, the number of ICU beds could be ramped up.

[Cyber Liberty]

1. Why is ICU care needed for treatment for this disease?

2. Could effective care be given, by less costly, complicated resources?

3.  If needed, the number of ICU beds could be ramped up.

ICU is necessary because victims of COVID require use of oxygen and close monitoring of vital signs.  It's a disease that attacks the lungs.

[DB]

1. Why is ICU care needed for treatment for this disease?

2. Could effective care be given, by less costly, complicated resources?

3.  If needed, the number of ICU beds could be ramped up.

I believe (I'm not an expert) that when you are put on a ventilator that is normally ICU level of care. A ventilator is what saves lives when the lungs have too much fluid and you can't breath on your own. At that point a lot of vitals need to be constantly monitored to make sure you don't tip over the edge. There are only so many ventilator machines available along with the consumable supplies that they require.

[Hoodat]

He wanted me to delete his account...when you delete an account all their posts are gone with him....We granted his wish and banned him....not sure why.

Because Ignorance is Strength.

[DB]

Because Ignorance is Strength.

That's a lot like "leading from behind"... Deep thoughts from the previous administration...

[LMAO]

1. Why is ICU care needed for treatment for this disease?

2. Could effective care be given, by less costly, complicated resources?

3.  If needed, the number of ICU beds could be ramped up.

1. See DB’s reply

2.  That would depend on the level of severity.

3.   But it’s not just CV pts  that use ICU beds.  You have fresh surgicals,  unstable cardiac patients,  trauma patients, and patients that  had  strokes  needing closer monitoring if they’re getting medicine  that need ICU beds. Plus an ICU nurse has different qualifications than a regular floor nurse so were would you get the staff?

 This has the potential to be pretty messy. Unfortunately, we are in an election season so partisan politics is also baked in the equation

[libertybele]

1. See DB’s reply

2.  That would depend on the level of severity.

3.   But it’s not just CV pts  that use ICU beds.  You have fresh surgicals,  unstable cardiac patients,  trauma patients, and patients that  had  strokes  needing closer monitoring if they’re getting medicine  that need ICU beds. Plus an ICU nurse has different qualifications than a regular floor nurse so were would you get the staff?

 This has the potential to be pretty messy. Unfortunately, we are in an election season so partisan politics is also baked in the equation

According to a Politico article, only 2% of the corona patients in China needed ventilators -- we all know that may not be a reliable stat.  There is a government emergency supply of ventilators, but the problem is further compounded by the fact that there wouldn't be enough respiratory therapists to cover.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/14/health-system-coronavirus-preparation-129066

[roamer_1]

3.   But it’s not just CV pts  that use ICU beds.  You have fresh surgicals,  unstable cardiac patients,  trauma patients, and patients that  had  strokes  needing closer monitoring if they’re getting medicine  that need ICU beds. Plus an ICU nurse has different qualifications than a regular floor nurse so were would you get the staff?

That's not altogether true. Expansion works with triage to hustle folks out of the way of full on ICU. Extended care, and particularly quarantine is likely to be the lion's share, and floor nurses can step up.

And that isn't to say that full on ICU wards can't be constructed quickly either, to expand full capabilities.

[Hoodat]

Ventilator shortage – CPAP machines to the rescue?

WASHINGTON, D.C. (March 12, 2020) - CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta and other experts are predicting that, as the coronavirus continues to spread, our country's need for ventilators for the 1% of those afflicted who require them - one million people - would completely overwhelm the available supply of only about 72,000 full ventilators, many of which are already in use for patients with other medical problems.

But CPAP machines, already in wide use for people who snore, might be used as a temporary stopgap for those whose ventilator needs are not as severe and as complicated, suggests professor John Banzhaf, an MIT-educated engineer and inventor with several patents.

Banzhaf also says that a simple 20-second handwashing timer, mounted next to sinks, could also save many lives, since most people do not wash their hands long enough to effectively stop the spread of both the corona and flue viruses.

~snip~

Using Existing CPAP Machines

So Banzhaf suggests the possibility of using existing CPAP (Continuous Positive Airway Pressure) machines, now already in very widespread use in homes to combat sleep apnea, as devices to help persons with respiratory problems due to the coronavirus, especially in less serious cases which do not require the full power and sophistication of expensive hospital-type ventilator machines.

Here's why:

First, the number of existing CPAP machines greatly exceeds the number of hospital ventilation machines, and, because they are simpler and less expensive, manufacturing capability can be increased far more quickly, very easily, and at much lower cost.

Second, CPAP machines, especially those with full-face masks, can provide a very significant increase in the amount of air (and therefore oxygen) a user can consume, and many can easily be adjusted to provide even higher air pressures than would ordinarily be required to overcome mild sleep apnea.

Third, those most at risk of respiratory problems from the coronavirus virus - i.e., those who are elderly and/or have other medical problems - are also the population most like to already have and use CPAP machines.


https://www.valuewalk.com/2020/03/covid-19-cpap-machines/

[LMAO]

That's not altogether true. Expansion works with triage to hustle folks out of the way of full on ICU. Extended care, and particularly quarantine is likely to be the lion's share, and floor nurses can step up.

And that isn't to say that full on ICU wards can't be constructed quickly either, to expand full capabilities.

 A floor nurse could monitor an ICU pt  but the problem would be Staffing.  You would burn out medical staff pretty quick

 Where I work we’re already short staffed and that was even before the Coronavirus. The staffing for ICU units is normally better than it is for Acute medical floors.

After so many years of working in this field, what I’ve learned is what sounds good written on paper seems to fall apart once the patient loads reach a certain level.

And any patient with active symptoms would definitely be in isolation. So any rooms that could hold two patients would only be able to take one

I think I’m talking myself into an early retirement

[libertybele]

Ventilator shortage – CPAP machines to the rescue?

WASHINGTON, D.C. (March 12, 2020) - CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta and other experts are predicting that, as the coronavirus continues to spread, our country's need for ventilators for the 1% of those afflicted who require them - one million people - would completely overwhelm the available supply of only about 72,000 full ventilators, many of which are already in use for patients with other medical problems.

But CPAP machines, already in wide use for people who snore, might be used as a temporary stopgap for those whose ventilator needs are not as severe and as complicated, suggests professor John Banzhaf, an MIT-educated engineer and inventor with several patents.

Banzhaf also says that a simple 20-second handwashing timer, mounted next to sinks, could also save many lives, since most people do not wash their hands long enough to effectively stop the spread of both the corona and flue viruses.

~snip~

Using Existing CPAP Machines

So Banzhaf suggests the possibility of using existing CPAP (Continuous Positive Airway Pressure) machines, now already in very widespread use in homes to combat sleep apnea, as devices to help persons with respiratory problems due to the coronavirus, especially in less serious cases which do not require the full power and sophistication of expensive hospital-type ventilator machines.

Here's why:

First, the number of existing CPAP machines greatly exceeds the number of hospital ventilation machines, and, because they are simpler and less expensive, manufacturing capability can be increased far more quickly, very easily, and at much lower cost.

Second, CPAP machines, especially those with full-face masks, can provide a very significant increase in the amount of air (and therefore oxygen) a user can consume, and many can easily be adjusted to provide even higher air pressures than would ordinarily be required to overcome mild sleep apnea.

Third, those most at risk of respiratory problems from the coronavirus virus - i.e., those who are elderly and/or have other medical problems - are also the population most like to already have and use CPAP machines.


https://www.valuewalk.com/2020/03/covid-19-cpap-machines/

Good information.  So, we've good food, water, paper goods, and a CPAP machine.  Bonus!  We're all set.     (Hey, I'm trying to stay positive).

[LMAO]

Agree @DB  He was also a millennial.  Dexter debated issues from his personal worldview .... and not without some courage. 

It is in all of our interests to understand this worldview; to debate --- interview, if you will --- someone about to take the reins of power.   We might have learned the most effective way to reform his self-defeating worldview.  All we learned is sarcasm and dismissals don't work. 

We had much to learn from Dexter---that he is no longer a Briefer is a missed opportunity.   

@Right_in_Virginia

Very nice post

I will admit that there’s things that I learn on here from reading people’s posts. Things  that I didn’t know before. For example, it was on this site today that I learned that John McCain endorsed Barack Obama for president in 2008. I actually didn’t know he did that. I doubted it at first when someone mentioned he did it. But that individual was able to back up their claim with McCains own words and all I can say about that is.....   

[roamer_1]

Where I work we’re already short staffed and that was even before the Coronavirus. The staffing for ICU units is normally better than it is for Acute medical floors.

Well where I am at, my DIL works 2 days a week and gets paid for 4.
Seems there's a lot more room there before burn out...

[LMAO]

Well where I am at, my DIL works 2 days a week and gets paid for 4.
Seems there's a lot more room there before burn out...

I’m assuming she’s probably a 12 hour versus the regular eight hours? We have RNs that do work 12 hour shifts. I’m just a plain old eight hour RN

I’ve actually been on vacation for 10 days and I think I’m afraid to go back to work Monday

But I have seen a lot of floor staff get burned out especially due to staffing issues and heavier patient loads

 I can’t really say from a nursing standpoint what kind of care beyond pulmonary issues and vital sign monitoring could be done for a patient with this virus with full-blown symptoms because I have yet to see one. It’s a possibility that some nurses might refuse to take care of somebody in such a state because of the risk of infection to themselves or bringing it to a loved one
 

[Cyber Liberty]

A floor nurse could monitor an ICU pt  but the problem would be Staffing.  You would burn out medical staff pretty quick

 Where I work we’re already short staffed and that was even before the Coronavirus. The staffing for ICU units is normally better than it is for Acute medical floors.

After so many years of working in this field, what I’ve learned is what sounds good written on paper seems to fall apart once the patient loads reach a certain level.

And any patient with active symptoms would definitely be in isolation. So any rooms that could hold two patients would only be able to take one

I think I’m talking myself into an early retirement

I did that...talked myself into early retirement.  I like it a lot, I get to be home with my baby and the herd of cat.

Aren't there corpsmen in the military that can fill in for ICU Nurses? 

[Cyber Liberty]

@Right_in_Virginia

Very nice post

I will admit that there’s things that I learn on here from reading people’s posts. Things  that I didn’t know before. For example, it was on this site today that I learned that John McCain endorsed Barack Obama for president in 2008. I actually didn’t know he did that. I doubted it at first when someone mentioned he did it. But that individual was able to back up their claim with McCains own words and all I can say about that is.....   

Briefers are at your service....

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Agree @DB  He was also a millennial.  Dexter debated issues from his personal worldview .... and not without some courage. 

It is in all of our interests to understand this worldview; to debate --- interview, if you will --- someone about to take the reins of power.   We might have learned the most effective way to reform his self-defeating worldview.  All we learned is sarcasm and dismissals don't work. 

We had much to learn from Dexter---that he is no longer a Briefer is a missed opportunity.   

@Right_in_Virginia
I passed by this several times because I thought my praise might be perceived as insincere, but others have already pointed out this great post, and I wanted to express I'm impressed with your insight on this.

[Cyber Liberty]

@Right_in_Virginia
I passed by this several times because I thought my praise might be perceived as insincere, but others have already pointed out this great post, and I wanted to express I'm impressed with your insight on this.

His comments were indeed interesting, the first dozen times or so.  It only got old after that.  Frequent posters on this thread, and other recent ones would probably agree.