Author Topic: Doctors Treating Coronavirus Told to Discriminate Against Elderly Patients: They “Will be Left to Di  (Read 7449 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Absolutely disagree.

He was a real patriot and one of the few that really tried to help our troops and veterans.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 44,148
He was a real patriot and one of the few that really tried to help our troops and veterans.

Absolutely disagree. And that you think so demonstrates your ignorance on the subject.

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Absolutely disagree. And that you think so demonstrates your ignorance on the subject.

Republicans seemed to like him well enough in 2008.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,027
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Private healthcare can become too inundated by need to help everybody too. If that happened they'd be picking and choosing based on who has the most money. If there's more need than availability of care during a disaster somebody is going to get screwed. It happens in war sometimes. Some horrifying shit goes down and limited medical personnel have to make heartbreaking decisions about who is worth trying to save and who should be left to die.
I get triage. I have been on the side of the road in turnout gear at a major accident. One patient per helo, two helos in the State. (We have one, inbound). Four badly messed up victims, and the decision was which one goes out on the bird. Obviously someone who is messed up enough they aren't likely to be stabilized in the local ER, but they have to be in good enough shape to make it to Shocktrauma (about 20 minutes to get in the door). The other three will go to the nearest hospital, 30 minutes by meatwagon, and they've been notified, but it's a holiday and they aren't set up for three critical trauma patients at once.
You gotta make a call, and it is likely you will lose at least one of the four because of it.
Most critical: immediate ground transport to nearest hospital. Maybe they can get that one stabilized before the next most critical gets into Shocktrauma.
Next most critical on the helo.
The other two go out on the inbound ambulances, to the nearest hospital who will hopefully have made progress on or called the first patient in, freeing up some staff to work on them.

The first off the scene may not make that hospital, but if they don't, it was the right call, because they likely would not have survived the helo ride either.

It is a brutal business, triage, but the idea is to save as many lives as possible.

The reality is that there will always be events which, for a short but critical time, will overtax whatever existing capacity is present. That capacity is based on more ordinary times, with some 'overflow' built in for crisis, but the economic reality is that staffing and maintaining facilities at the level of the highest likely crisis means that on ordinary days there will be people standing around empty beds with nothing to do, and that's expensive. It is not economically feasible to be completely ready for the worst case scenario.

At the time I was in Fire/EMS, there were three ambulances within 15 minutes of the scene of the accident I described, with EMT level crews, and two fire companies to respond, at about the same distance. The MD state police had two helicopters set up for emergency transport of patients in the state.

You work with what you have. You do the best you can with that, but reality is that some will not survive.

Keep in mind that in any socialized system, the levels of staffing and preparedness at any given location will not necessarily be decided on rational projections of need, but on the basis of government staffers who might be more inclined to cater to votes rather than patients who are seen as less than influential.   
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 44,148
Republicans seemed to like him well enough in 2008.

Really? He LOST.
And without Palin, he'd have been laughed out of town... Not that I like Palin very much more.

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Really? He LOST.

He won the nomination because he was an honorable and respected Republican. He lost the general because Barack got a shitload of votes from the "HURRDURR first black president!!" crowd.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online LMAO

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,101
  • Gender: Male

When I was in Sweden I talked a lot of politics with locals (an anecdote I know) and every last one of them had nothing but good things to say about their healthcare system. They actually laughed at the ignorance of some Americans that think Sweden is falling apart and has awful healthcare.

Because that's all they know. Ask the average American what they know about SS and Medicare and the insolvency issues and unfunded liability issue and you'll get blank stares. You may get Medicare and SS checks for now. But the demographics here along with Europe will strain public health systems.

A while back, we had a MD that came to our hospital to work from Switzerland and her observation was American health care system overtreats people. We had a women that kept getting readmitted for drug abuse related health issues. She told us that in their system, they would treat her once and no more if she kept coming back for the same issues. That's one way such systems boost outcomes. The British NHS will no longer pay for hip, knee, back surgeries for obese pt's or smokers. Simply because the outcomes are poorer

People have posted lots of links and analysis for you to show that these  countries have problems with their systems and the issues we would face if such systems were implemented here and your only response has been to dismiss them or tell us "but they like their healthcare."
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Online LMAO

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,101
  • Gender: Male
That isn't a measure of healthcare. Many factors go into longevity not just healthcare. We have more people on drugs, more violence in the inner cities, more people with third world diseases crossing our borders unrestrained. What we eat also is a substantial factor. Many Americans also have desk jobs and don't get enough physical activity.

The US has the highest survival rate for cancer in the world. That is a direct result of our quality of healthcare. The US is the primary driver of medical innovation that the rest of the world benefits from.

I will add that most pt's we see have health related issues related to lifestyle choices. That adds to the cost. But any efforts to ban Big Gulps and tax bad food would be met with resistance and rightly so. There are things we as a free society reject that other countries have no problem accepting
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Online Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,481
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Dunno if I should read sarcasm into this post but it makes the most sense of anything you've said to date.

Although I do believe there are a few more honest politicians than you let on, they are pitifully few. And I cannot think of a single one on the left, not even The Bern.

It only makes some sort of sense if you remove all the "you" words from the post.  As it is, it's just another personal attack from one who has had every.  Single. Argument.  Shot to pieces.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Online LMAO

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,101
  • Gender: Male
. He lost the general because Barack got a shitload of votes from the "HURRDURR first black president!!" crowd.

No republican would have won in 2008. We were in a financial crisis and an unpopular war and the incumbent was a republican. McCain paid for that
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Online Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,481
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
No republican would have won in 2008. We were in a financial crisis and an unpopular war and the incumbent was a republican. McCain paid for that

It did not help that he defended O'Bastard from other Republicans, and actually endorsed him in October '08 when he assured us that there was no reason to fear an O'Bastard Presidency.  He was as wrong about that as he was nearly every time he stood in opposition to conservative initiatives.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Online LMAO

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,101
  • Gender: Male
endorsed him in October '08 when he assured us that there was no reason to fear an O'Bastard Presidency. 


I don't recall that

Not saying it didn't happen. I just don't remember that
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Because that's all they know. Ask the average American what they know about SS and Medicare and the insolvency issues and unfunded liability issue and you'll get blank stares. You may get Medicare and SS checks for now. But the demographics here along with Europe will strain public health systems.

A while back, we had a MD that came to our hospital to work from Switzerland and her observation was American health care system overtreats people. We had a women that kept getting readmitted for drug abuse related health issues. She told us that in their system, they would treat her once and no more if she kept coming back for the same issues. That's one way such systems boost outcomes. The British NHS will no longer pay for hip, knee, back surgeries for obese pt's or smokers. Simply because the outcomes are poorer

People have posted lots of links and analysis for you to show that these  countries have problems with their systems and the issues we would face if such systems were implemented here and your only response has been to dismiss them or tell us "but they like their healthcare."

I think it's obvious they would do something different if it was as bad as y'all are trying to suggest. They won't though, ever, because their way is working well enough for them. Every system has issues. They think theirs is good though, and will continue to work on improvements.

If things were really falling apart people would notice. The government wouldn't be about it. Things would change. The arguments y'all have presented are a combination of anecdotes and propaganda designed to scare Americans like you into believing Europe is nightmare fuel. It's just not the case.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online LMAO

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,101
  • Gender: Male
I think it's obvious they would do something different if it was as bad as y'all are trying to suggest. They won't though, ever, because their way is working well enough for them. Every system has issues. They think theirs is good though, and will continue to work on improvements.

If things were really falling apart people would notice. The government wouldn't be about it. Things would change. The arguments y'all have presented are a combination of anecdotes and propaganda designed to scare Americans like you into believing Europe is nightmare fuel. It's just not the case.

Yup.

As predicted just dismiss...lol

Many have been thorough in their replies and you just continue to dismiss them
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 06:47:45 pm by LMAO »
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Yup.

As predicted just dismiss

I don't dismiss what you say I just think your perspective is lacking. I think you're afraid of something you don't actually understand fully. The stuff people have been linking really is just anecdotes and/or propaganda.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Online LMAO

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,101
  • Gender: Male
I don't dismiss what you say I just think your perspective is lacking. I think you're afraid of something you don't actually understand fully. The stuff people have been linking really is just anecdotes and/or propaganda.

No. they are linking to analysis and information that you're uncomfortable hearing and reading..
I love the line how I don't understand the healthcare Industry when I've been in it in  over 30 years.
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Online Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,481
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵

I don't recall that

Not saying it didn't happen. I just don't remember that

This archived article has a link to the video from 10/10/08.

http://www.freedomslighthouse.com/2008/10/mccain-reassures-supporters-no-need-to.html
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Online LMAO

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,101
  • Gender: Male
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Online Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,481
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
That's an endorsement

Yes, it is and I was furious when I saw it at the time.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline DB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,545

I don't recall that

Not saying it didn't happen. I just don't remember that

I do remember that...

Offline DB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,545
Yes, it is and I was furious when I saw it at the time.

It was a WTF moment...

Offline XenaLee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,398
  • Gender: Female
  • Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
This archived article has a link to the video from 10/10/08.

http://www.freedomslighthouse.com/2008/10/mccain-reassures-supporters-no-need-to.html

I wonder how many of those people were surprised that Snake McCain sold them out to Barry.  I wouldn't have been.
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Online LMAO

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,101
  • Gender: Male
It was a WTF moment...

I can understand him not falling into the birther issue but the idea of running for an election is to win it. You do that by convincing you are the better candidate and your opponent is worse. is there a video of BHO telling his supporters that they don't have nothing to worry from a McCain presidency?


He basically told the country in that video that Obama was the better candidate :silly:
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 07:09:26 pm by LMAO »
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Online Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,481
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
I wonder how many of those people were surprised that Snake McCain sold them out to Barry.  I wouldn't have been.

I wasn't surprised at all.  McStain had been a Senator from my state for years, so I was on to his treachery.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Online Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,481
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
I can understand him not falling into the birther issue but the idea of running for an election is to win it. You do that by convincing you are the better candidate and your opponent is worse.

He basically told the country in that video that Obama was the better candidate :silly:

He was sucking up to the left for many years previous, and it was just another suck as far as I was concerned.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed: