Author Topic: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD  (Read 43291 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,757
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #475 on: August 15, 2019, 09:50:37 pm »
OK, in this post is the transcription up through 25:16 of 46:52.  I will post the rest tomorrow.


Hey @EdJames ...
https://www.hongkiat.com/blog/three-ways-transcribe-youtube-videos/

Jussayin...  :shrug:

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,564
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #476 on: August 15, 2019, 10:22:08 pm »
Thank you @EdJames!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline thackney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,267
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #477 on: August 15, 2019, 10:27:47 pm »
@EdJames

Bless you.  Thank you for your work.
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,705
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #478 on: August 15, 2019, 11:38:32 pm »
@EdJames Thank you! Thank You! Thank You!

I'm going to Copy that into Word, and send that transcript around to some friends. Let's see if we can't light some fires.  :patriot:

First half, down!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 11:41:08 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline EdJames

  • Certified Trump Realist
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,791
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #479 on: August 15, 2019, 11:59:54 pm »
@Bigun
@thackney
@Smokin Joe

You guys are more than welcome!  It is a pleasure for me to work on as it makes me reflect more deeply as I go through the video at 1/2 speed.  Plus I will now have the text to share, in particular want this for my grandsons as they get a tad older.

Should be able to finish it off tomorrow, going to try the 2nd tool in @roamer_1's link to gather some of the raw text for refinement.

 :patriot:

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,757
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #480 on: August 16, 2019, 12:06:54 am »
Should be able to finish it off tomorrow, going to try the 2nd tool in @roamer_1's link to gather some of the raw text for refinement.


@EdJames
Not an expert, but I can tell you it will likely be a fair copy - Requiring some editing.
Don't use it for anything redneck... Google doesn't understand redneck, as Google Assistant proves to me by the hour.

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #481 on: August 16, 2019, 12:10:06 am »
@Bigun
@thackney
@Smokin Joe

You guys are more than welcome!  It is a pleasure for me to work on as it makes me reflect more deeply as I go through the video at 1/2 speed.  Plus I will now have the text to share, in particular want this for my grandsons as they get a tad older.

Should be able to finish it off tomorrow, going to try the 2nd tool in @roamer_1's link to gather some of the raw text for refinement.

 :patriot:


@EdJames, thank you for doing that.  That is going above and beyond!

Offline Sighlass

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,284
  • Didn't vote for McCain Dole Romney Trump !
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #482 on: August 16, 2019, 04:40:22 am »
Pinging @Sighlass to the above post.  (Sorry pal, forgot you in the ping.)

Thank you EdJames, that took a pretty penny of time to type up... I know, I have tried to transcribe a few things and it ain't fun. I appreciate it sir. Please ping me when you have time to do the rest... I appreciate it.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 04:46:52 am by Sighlass »
Exodus 18:21 Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders over ....

Offline EdJames

  • Certified Trump Realist
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,791
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #483 on: August 16, 2019, 02:49:11 pm »
@EdJames
Not an expert, but I can tell you it will likely be a fair copy - Requiring some editing.
Don't use it for anything redneck... Google doesn't understand redneck, as Google Assistant proves to me by the hour.

The link to the second tool gave me a nice block of text for editing...  thanks for that info, I was unaware of the tools!!

 :beer:

(Tried the first tool a few times, which is the transcription option in the YouTube video, and it just churned away for hours without producing anything....  utility may vary by video...)

Offline EdJames

  • Certified Trump Realist
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,791
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #484 on: August 16, 2019, 02:52:59 pm »
@Sanguine
@Bigun
@Cyber Liberty
@Sighlass
@Smokin Joe
@thackney
@roamer_1

@Anyone time-impaired, hearing-impaired, or otherwise impaired, or just wants the text of the presentation!!

Here it is, the rest of the transcription,  from 25:17 through 46:52.

===

So let me ask you this question..... let's just say three individuals in black suits and ties with a clipboard.... they come to your house.... and they say to you: we want to show you the legal survey of your property boundaries.... now we recognize that when you bought this property the boundaries were laid out, everybody has a legal survey of their property... we understand that you own this property, but we're looking at this survey of your property and we're realizing that you know this survey was done 20-30 years ago... and you have to admit, life has changed a lot in the last 30 years... so in order to keep up with the changing times, here's what we want to suggest to you... what we're gonna do is we're gonna reinterpret the boundary lines of your property in towards your home just two feet... we're not actually changing the legal boundaries they will still say legally in your property appraiser's office these are your boundaries but we're gonna reinterpret them in two feet on all sides... now don't worry we're not discriminating against you, because we're gonna do this for everybody... and what I need you to see because we're doing this for everybody, you have to understand the benefit of this means we're gonna have a four foot buffer between everybody's property, so we can provide you with greater security and greater services...

How many of you are gonna sign on the dotted line?  Oh yeah sure, how many you might be tempted to stand on the front porch and go "click-shhh, no thank you, leave my property?"

So here's what James Madison is trying to tell you.. if you are willing to take and defend the physical property upon which your grass grows to that extent, why would you not take the same passion to your Right to Freedom of speech? to the property of your Freedom of press? to the property in your RKBA?

As they're always trying to say we're not amending this amendment... we're just going to reinterpret it a little bit, for the benefit of everyone else...

You see, I think we fail to see the magnitude of what is happening today, because we have failed to teach the Principles for a very long time...

I mentioned to you your property is an essential Right, your property is a Natural Right... your property, and the Right to secure that property is an inalienable Right...

Which is why the Fourth Amendment reads, once again the Right of the People... not the right of the government, the Right of the People to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects... you see that the word "effects," it's the catch-all...

It's everything that Madison was talking about.... the effects is everything that you put value in, it's everything that you have a Right to...

And you are to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures... now what's interesting is because even in law school we don't actually study the Constitution anymore.... Does that shock anybody?  Lawyers haven't learned the Constitution in law school for decades.... What we learn, is what other people write about the Constitution... and quite often it's more like what other people wrote about other people, who wrote about the other things that other people wrote...

It's like that game when we were kids called "telephone" where you whisper in somebody's ear and then by the time it gets back to you it doesn't even closely resemble what you said... that's what's happened to our Constitution...

Back in ancient days kings used to make it illegal to read and write...  King William the first, the Conqueror, made the legal language of England, French!  It was illegal to speak anything but French in England... Why?  That's because the people couldn't understand French, they couldn't understand the laws, so they couldn't object...

That is the deception America is under today... we have been deceived into believing that the Constitution is to difficult to understand... so we have to leave it... to politicians, and professors, and pundits... all the while, their goal is to keep us enslaved, docile, and obedient...

Those people will tell you that that's that the Fourth Amendment is very clear... you are not free from all searches and seizures... you're only free from unreasonable ones... But there's a problem my dear America... how do we define what is "reasonable?"   

And they spent decades... and billions of dollars in law school brains, to come up with a definition of "reasonableness"  You may not believe me but this is actually the legal standard of what is "reasonable."  A reasonable search-and-seizure is something that some "reasonable" person would find "reasonable" under "reasonable" circumstances...

That is a legal definition.... Yeah, my husband likes to say you got to go to college to get that stupid....

[laughter from crowd]

But what we fail to recognize is that the Fourth Amendment already tells us what is reasonable... because it doesn't stop right after the words "shall not be violated..."  it says no warrant shall issue but based upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, particularly describing the place, or the place to be seized, the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

A reasonable search-and-seizure is one that completes five elements... and the language of the Fourth Amendment proves that... no warrant, probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized... that word, "and," means in order to have a reasonable search and seizure ALL five elements must be present at the same time... not four out of five, not four and a half out of five, all five... by the definition established by our drafters of the Constitution....  Anything beyond that is an unreasonable search and seizure...

And yet, we have somehow allowed the government to rewrite the Constitution without an Amendment... and invent exceptions like... except in national security... except in matters of exigent circumstances... except, in the war on drugs...

Do you know, article 16 of the Massachusetts Constitution says: every subject has a right to be secure from all unreasonable searches and seizures?  The same terms apply here in the State of Massachusetts, as they do on the federal level...

Now don't think that KrisAnne has wandered off... she said she's gonna be talking about Red Flag Laws... but I'm establishing to you, the foundation of our Rights... we have a RKBA, because we are property Rights in securing our bodies and our lives and our property... we have a Right to be secure in our property... both on federal and state levels, we cannot tolerate unreasonable searches and seizures.... But do you not also know, you have a Right to not be deprived of Life, Liberty, or Property without due process of law?

That's the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution... nor shall any person be deprived of Life, Liberty, or Property without due process of law...  If you are being deprived of your property outside the rules of due process, that is a violation of your Rights... it is a violation of the supreme law of the land...

You have the Sixth Amendment, which says that you are innocent, until proven guilty... in all criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation, to be confronted with witnesses against him, to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense....

Article 16 of the Massachusetts Constitution says you are innocent until proven guilty, no subject shall be arrested or imprisoned, or despoiled or deprived of his property, or be deprived of his Life, Liberty or estate, but by the judgment of his peers, or the judgment of the law... not just simply because they write a law, can they seize your property, that's not what this is saying,  it is saying that you have the right to a trial to be judged under the law... that way, the lawyers who write the laws don't become the legislators, the enforcers, and the executors at the same time... 

You have a Right to be assumed innocent,  you are innocent until proven guilty, by both federal and national standards... and State standards....

In Madison's essay "Property," I want you to listen very closely to the warning that he gives... this is not a just government, nor is property secured under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens, for the service of the rest....

He says, "a magistrate issuing his warrants to a press gang, would be in his proper functions in Turkey or Indostan," and they are the most.... they are the examples of the most complete despotism....

When your property is taken by arbitrary terms, James Madison says, you have a despotic government....

What about the Eighth Amendment?  Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments.... The Massachusetts Constitution contains the same provision in article 26... no magistrate or court of law shall demand excessive bail or sureties, impose excessive fines, or inflict cruel and unusual punishment...

In the Seventh Amendment, it says, in suits at common law where the value in controversy shall exceed $20, the right of a trial by jury shall be preserved....  In the Massachusetts Constitution under article 15, it says in all controversies concerning property, and in all suits between two or more parties, the parties have a right to a trial by jury...


I just showed you your Rights!!  Essential, Natural, Inalienable.... you have a Right to defend your Life, your Liberty, your Property... you have a Right to the Property itself...  you have a Right to be secure in that property, you have a Right to a government that respects your Rights, and is limited by the rules of due process... government can't take your Property without due process... if they're going to take your Property, you have a Right to a trial by jury... you have a Right to be innocent until proven guilty, and you have a Right to be free from arbitrary and despotic governments...


So let's look at these Red Flag Laws, because the RFLs say that any family member, any romantic involvement, past or present...  Can you imagine your ex having the power to take your Rights away?   Or any law enforcement officer, has the power to go to a judge, make a petition that says they FEEL you may be a danger to yourself, or to someone else... without your appearance in court.... without being able to face your accusers... without the obligation of the accuser to prove your guilt... the judge now issues a pseudo warrant that authorizes the government to come and take your property on completely unsubstantiated, arbitrary terms....

And then you are left... to stand before the government, and try to prove your innocence...

These RFLs take your Right to self-defense... they take your Property without due process... they are an unlawful, arbitrary search and seizure... they deny you of your Right to a trial...

I want you to see this is a taking of your Property... without due process... if you're driving down the road, and somebody calls the police officer from the neighboring town and hands them your the tag on your plate, and says "hey I want you to look for this car because I think they might be speeding sometime soon."  And the officer, because that's dangerous right?  You're a danger to yourself, and other people when you violate the speed limit.... how many people die every year because people violate traffic laws?  So now, the officer pulls you over because somebody thinks you might be a danger to yourself or to someone else in your vehicle... and as a defense of somebody else's accusation, they impound your car...

Do you think taking and impounding your entire vehicle is an excessive fine for speeding?  Why wouldn't taking your entire Property of your Right to self-defense, your Right to Property, your Right to due process, having your Rights violated by searches and seizures, your Right to a trial all eliminated from you... Why is that not considered an excessive fine?

[murmuring in the crowd]

And a cruel and unusual punishment?  And if that's not bad enough, our entire legal system has devolved to the simple Marxist principle of guilty until proven innocent... 

John Locke, the father of Liberty wrote, "if the innocent honest man must quietly quit all he has for peace sake, to him who lay violent hands upon it, I desire it may be considered, what kind of peace will they'll be in a world which consists only for the benefit of robbers and oppressors?"

If you have to violate my Rights to do your job, you are the criminal, not me... 


[applause from the audience]

And I will end with Patrick Henry, his famous "give me liberty or give me death speech," I think he's speaking to us today... because why do we have these Red Fag Laws?  We are told that we need them to keep us safe... we need them for a peaceful society... Patrick Henry says this, "what is it the gentleman asked, what is it the gentleman wish, what would they have?  Is life so dear, and peace so sweet, to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?"

You know what he's telling us... without Liberty your life is nothing but servitude... without Liberty, your peace will become your prison, and that's why he said, "forbid it Almighty God, I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me Liberty or give me death."

[rousing applause from the audience]

God Bless you, and thank you very much!

[musical outro]
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 03:18:39 pm by EdJames »

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,757
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #485 on: August 16, 2019, 03:02:39 pm »
The link to the second tool gave me a nice block of text for editing...  thanks for that info, I was unaware of the tools!!

 :beer:

 :beer: :patriot: :seeya:

Offline thackney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,267
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #486 on: August 16, 2019, 03:31:58 pm »
@EdJames

God Bless you for the time and effort.

I appreciate you.
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline thackney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,267
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #487 on: August 16, 2019, 05:56:12 pm »
What I get from her speech is along the same lines I have suggested.  The standard for removing someone's firearms needs to be due process demonstrating a substantial and proven risk to others.  It needs to be of a level that it is beyond reasonable doubt.

The concept of a lower standard to remove the legal firearms is to devalue the right.

In my opinion, the level required to take away that right should be no less than level required to imprison or otherwise remove that person from open society.  No lower standard should be accepted.
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,564
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #488 on: August 16, 2019, 06:02:30 pm »
What I get from her speech is along the same lines I have suggested.  The standard for removing someone's firearms needs to be due process demonstrating a substantial and proven risk to others.  It needs to be of a level that it is beyond reasonable doubt.

The concept of a lower standard to remove the legal firearms is to devalue the right.

In my opinion, the level required to take away that right should be no less than level required to imprison or otherwise remove that person from open society.  No lower standard should be accepted.

Absolutely agree with that and the same is true for ALL of our rights so why do we still have an income tax and the IRS which trample all over our fourth and fifth amendment rights?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 06:18:10 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,757
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #489 on: August 16, 2019, 06:07:55 pm »
What I get from her speech is along the same lines I have suggested.  The standard for removing someone's firearms needs to be due process demonstrating a substantial and proven risk to others.  It needs to be of a level that it is beyond reasonable doubt.

The concept of a lower standard to remove the legal firearms is to devalue the right.

In my opinion, the level required to take away that right should be no less than level required to imprison or otherwise remove that person from open society.  No lower standard should be accepted.

Precisely so - and the precedent once set, which other rights will be diminished by exception?
Speech? Can the mind police extend their grip to removing your speech by way of your supposed intent? This scurrilous path must be forever avoided.

Offline GrouchoTex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,382
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #490 on: August 16, 2019, 06:08:52 pm »
Precisely so - and the precedent once set, which other rights will be diminished by exception?
Speech? Can the mind police extend their grip to removing your speech by way of your supposed intent? This scurrilous path must be forever avoided.


Bravo and  :amen:

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,183
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #491 on: August 16, 2019, 06:25:31 pm »
What I get from her speech is along the same lines I have suggested.  The standard for removing someone's firearms needs to be due process demonstrating a substantial and proven risk to others.  It needs to be of a level that it is beyond reasonable doubt.

The concept of a lower standard to remove the legal firearms is to devalue the right.

In my opinion, the level required to take away that right should be no less than level required to imprison or otherwise remove that person from open society.  No lower standard should be accepted.

The due process has to come before the seizure of anybody's property, not after.  The only lip-service I've seen to due process so far has been, "Seize first, with a government guarantee of due process later."  This is unacceptable.  It turns the standard, "innocent until proven guilty" on its head because the accused is put in the position of having to prove his innocence to get his property returned.  Possession remains 9/10ths of the law.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,757
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #492 on: August 16, 2019, 06:28:00 pm »
The due process has to come before the seizure of anybody's property, not after.  The only lip-service I've seen to due process so far has been, "Seize first, with a government guarantee of due process later."  This is unacceptable.  It turns the standard, "innocent until proven guilty" on its head because the accused is put in the position of having to prove his innocence to get his property returned.  Possession remains 9/10ths of the law.

And foremost in due process, lest we forget, is indictment for a crime

Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,183
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #493 on: August 16, 2019, 06:35:58 pm »
And foremost in due process, lest we forget, is indictment for a crime

It's hard to have a proper Hearing without it.  We have an adversarial legal system, and it's hard to be adverse to nothing.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,705
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #494 on: August 16, 2019, 08:00:35 pm »
Precisely so - and the precedent once set, which other rights will be diminished by exception?
Speech? Can the mind police extend their grip to removing your speech by way of your supposed intent? This scurrilous path must be forever avoided.
But a red flag law on speech would mean you would be incarcerated because someone allegedly thinks you MIGHT say something (offensive/threatening violence/provoking violence/whatever), not because you actually said anything.

With preemptive regulations, no offense is necessary, only that someone says they think you might.

So they take your spoon because (someone says) you might eat too much ice cream (before you have any)

Or take your car because (someone says) you might go faster than the posted speed limit...

Or take your house because (someone says) you might turn it into a brothel....

That's the standard for action with this sort of law.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,757
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #495 on: August 16, 2019, 08:05:53 pm »
But a red flag law on speech would mean you would be incarcerated because someone allegedly thinks you MIGHT say something (offensive/threatening violence/provoking violence/whatever), not because you actually said anything.

With preemptive regulations, no offense is necessary, only that someone says they think you might.

So they take your spoon because (someone says) you might eat too much ice cream (before you have any)

Or take your car because (someone says) you might go faster than the posted speed limit...

Or take your house because (someone says) you might turn it into a brothel....

That's the standard for action with this sort of law.

That is exactly right - Once ever invoked, its expansion is unlimited.

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,705
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #496 on: August 16, 2019, 08:16:09 pm »
That is exactly right - Once ever invoked, its expansion is unlimited.
And in order to get your stuff back you have to prove that their assertion was unfounded

In other words, prove your innocence, not of a crime that was committed, but that you were not going to commit one.

It's tough enough to prove you didn't do something (why the standard is innocent until proven guilty), but to prove that you would not do something that hasn't even been done? Good luck with that.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43,757
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #497 on: August 16, 2019, 08:20:26 pm »
And in order to get your stuff back you have to prove that their assertion was unfounded

In other words, prove your innocence, not of a crime that was committed, but that you were not going to commit one.

It's tough enough to prove you didn't do something (why the standard is innocent until proven guilty), but to prove that you would not do something that hasn't even been done? Good luck with that.

Right... You can't prove a negative in the first place... Not to mention a negative twice removed...

How the hell can one be found guilty of a crime not yet committed?
That ANYONE would promote such a thing is just plain crazy.


Offline Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 80,183
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #498 on: August 16, 2019, 08:32:21 pm »
And in order to get your stuff back you have to prove that their assertion was unfounded

In other words, prove your innocence, not of a crime that was committed, but that you were not going to commit one.

It's tough enough to prove you didn't do something (why the standard is innocent until proven guilty), but to prove that you would not do something that hasn't even been done? Good luck with that.

Yup.  If your stuff is seized, then it becomes your burden to get it back, reliant upon the tender mercies of a government that may have someone (like an officer serving the seizure order) who wants to keep that AK-47 in your collection for himself.  Or swap it out with one that has a dirty serial number.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,705
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #499 on: August 16, 2019, 08:55:28 pm »
Right... You can't prove a negative in the first place... Not to mention a negative twice removed...

How the hell can one be found guilty of a crime not yet committed?
That ANYONE would promote such a thing is just plain crazy.

Mere possession of a firearm is not evidence that you would misuse it.

It isn't like someone with a kilo of controlled substance broken down into street level units for sale (possession with intent to distribute) because there is no proof of intent with the firearm, whereas the controlled substance being or having been (re)packaged for distribution is prima facie intent.

Even more dangerous is the idea that they might pull something akin to current Civil Asset Forfeiture, where the object is accused of a crime, just by being present, and seized. (Unconstitutional,  imho, and only upheld by the most perverted and contorted legal logic--in the end, a person is deprived of their property whether they were using it in or received it as the result of criminal activity or not)
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis