PLEASE READ: Frustrated opioid patients speak out: 'I now buy heroin on the street'

[roamer_1]

@roamer_1  The answers all come so easily to folks who have no idea what they are talking about.  Just like a lot of other subjects.

That's right. Chronic pain ain't for wimps. It is probably the hardest thing I have ever had to face.

[Right_in_Virginia]

@Right_in_Virginia
That is not altogether true - I was on norks, vikes or oxys for about that long, but I managed it well, due to my pretty rigid knowledge of my susceptibility to addictive substances. I walked away pretty well, when the hoops became to much to jump through.

The question here is before the fact - Is it reasonable or humane to demand resolution when the addict is in fact using due to chronic pain? I would say no. There is no other way to provide quality of life provided, and to take away the thing that allows them that quality of life is nothing short of cruel.

Any opiate addict can walk into a county office and get on the same methadone program as the heroin addict right now. For free.

I'm not trying to minimize the situation .... just trying to offer some help @roamer_1   It seems the options are to either to unify both patients and physicians and take the battle directly to Congress or find another avenue to fight the pain.

I offered the possibility of insurance covered inpatient rehab as a way to detox from the long term affects of the drug on the body ... and test new medications and therapies.

Other than one of these two alternatives, I don't see how to make this better for the people in chronic pain affected by this change.

[roamer_1]

Fact is, severe, untreated pain is going to shorten a life.  May be with the opiates that it's a wash.

I think that is very true.

[Frank Cannon]

First of all, that's just bullshit. Morphine addiction (which is the direct historical comparison) has been a long and enduring problem... Morphine was discovered during the civil war... After the civil war, the average morphine addict was likely to be a veteran... By the late 1800-early 1900's the average morphine addict was liable to be a housewife. The FDA was formed primarily to enforce truth in labeling, because the cures and medicines that housewives tended toward were packed with cocaine, morphine, and laudanum.

All the way along, the elderly have been given morphine nearing end-of-life, to deal with unending pain, as have cancer patients, as have anyone with serious pain, short or long term.

If you'd like to go further back, it was opium, wherever the chinaman set foot - you can literally track opiate distribution right along the railways.

It's not bullshit. Everything was fine back then on those drugs. Not every third person in the country was on them. These alternates you cite were for the really sick. Christ. I'll bet a dollar if I go into one of my tenements right now and waved a 50 dollar bill around I could fill my pockets with Oxi by knocking on 4 random tenants doors. That was not happening in the 70's 80's and 90's.

[roamer_1]

I'm not trying to minimize the situation .... just trying to offer some help @roamer_1   It seems the options are to either to unify both patients and physicians and take the battle directly to Congress or find another avenue to fight the pain.

I offered the possibility of insurance covered inpatient rehab as a way to detox from the long term affects of the drug on the body ... and test new medications and therapies.

Other than one of these two alternatives, I don't see how to make this better for the people in chronic pain affected by this change.

First of all @Right_in_Virginia , there is no real alternative. Morphine, for all its faults, is a godsend for some folks and necessary for quality of life. 'Testing new medications and therapies' at the expense of that quality of life is unconscionable... Especially so when longevity of life is not an option. If folks need it, they should have it, and addiction be damned.

I will however, admit that abuse is almost entirely predictable, and that can prove some effective work- Folks aren't really chasing a high - I didn't ever feel high when I was using. But prolonged use diminishes effectiveness, so where Norco 5's used to work a couple years ago, Norco 7's are necessary for the same relief... And four years from now, it will be 10's, and eventually you have a need for 90 hits a month just to keep that edge away...

I found pretty early on that metering my use was of very high value - I needed them most in the winter, and so I would go through mild withdrawal every spring, and suffer pretty much without through the summer, which would make them far more efficacious in the fall and winter, when I needed their effects at a premium... That is probably why I was able to walk away pretty easily.

So I am pretty sure that for the most effective pain relief, a form of hiatus of some kind would be beneficial as a protocol to follow. It would provide effective use at lesser dosages for a lot of people, and be helpful in preventing full-on addiction. How that would work is beyond my ken, as I can only speak for what worked for me.

As for rehab, I pointed out that methadone programs are already available - Not to diminish your suggestion, but rather to point out it is already engaged.

[roamer_1]

It's not bullshit. Everything was fine back then on those drugs. Not every third person in the country was on them. These alternates you cite were for the really sick. Christ. I'll bet a dollar if I go into one of my tenements right now and waved a 50 dollar bill around I could fill my pockets with Oxi by knocking on 4 random tenants doors. That was not happening in the 70's 80's and 90's.

Yes, it is bullshit - Though your general observation is also true - But that is, by and large, not an effect of prescription, or even burglarizing homes for their prescriptions (though no doubt that is part of the street level problem). When you can buy a $1.00 prescription hit in Mexico over the counter for between 15 and 25 cents, and sell it on the street for 5 to 8 bucks a hit in the USA, you are fixing nothing by limiting the prescriptions of folks that need it for pain relief.

[Right_in_Virginia]

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but "offer some help"?  You're not in a position to help, nor do you have the skill or knowledge to be able to help.

I take the fear I'm reading seriously @Sanguine   It is my instinct to help.  We can talk about this on forums for weeks on end ... but the people who are now living in pain will still be living in pain long after you've moved on to the next popular topic.

I'm reading people begging for some help, some suggestion.  I am offering two.  Those affected can take one, both, or none.  But at least I hope they know I have sincerely heard them.

[Frank Cannon]

Yes, it is bullshit - Though your general observation is also true - But that is, by and large, not an effect of prescription, or even burglarizing homes for their prescriptions (though no doubt that is part of the street level problem). When you can buy a $1.00 prescription hit in Mexico over the counter for between 15 and 25 cents, and sell it on the street for 5 to 8 bucks a hit in the USA, you are fixing nothing by limiting the prescriptions of folks that need it for pain relief.

What are you talking about? I was in the hospital a couple years ago and the doctor gave me 4 effing scrips for Oxi as a parting gift for "Just in case". I had them filled for dirt cheap even though I didn't plan on using them. I was shocked at how cheap. I still have them in case I am short some cash with a junkie whore.

[Cyber Liberty]

I take the fear I'm reading seriously @Sanguine   It is my instinct to help.  We can talk about this on forums for weeks on end ... but the people who are now living in pain will still be living in pain long after you've moved on to the next popular topic.

I'm reading people begging for some help, some suggestion.  I am offering two.  Those affected can take one, both, or none.  But at least I hope they know I have sincerely heard them.

I've been on this topic continuously since before it began.  So have other briefers like @Victoria33.  I have several loved ones in the  cross-hairs of this stupid anti-Opioid crusade, so I can be depended upon to comment on this topic. 

 

[Hoodat]

What are you talking about? I was in the hospital a couple years ago and the doctor gave me 4 effing scrips for Oxi as a parting gift for "Just in case". I had them filled for dirt cheap even though I didn't plan on using them. I was shocked at how cheap. I still have them in case I am short some cash with a junkie whore.

I've seen the 80 mg tabs go for around $100/ea.  Personally, I would rather have 2 or 3 K-4 dilaudids instead.

[Frank Cannon]

I've seen the 80 mg tabs go for around $100/ea.  Personally, I would rather have 2 or 3 K-4 dilaudids instead.

Really? That much? Shit. You wanna buy a couple bottles for $25 bucks a pill? Plenty of meat on the bone for you to flip them out for serious coin.

BTW I don't take Bitcoin or third party out of state checks.

[Victoria33]

@roamer_1  The answers all come so easily to folks who have no idea what they are talking about.  Just like a lot of other subjects.

@Cyber Liberty
@roamer_1
@mystery-ak

I go to an Orthopedic/Pain Specialist.  People in pain go there. Walking into that office, and you will feel special if you can "walk" in there, you see pain in every patient in that waiting room.  Most come in wheelchairs and walkers.  Most have someone with them to help them.  Most are older people.  That is a room full of pain.

The process is, the doc uses x-rays and MRIs to determine why pain is there.  When that is determined, the doc will try to fix it without surgery - surgery is the last resort. During this evaluation, the patient is put on pain reliever meds.  He is a pain "specialist" so he can prescribe "pain pills" without as much paper work as a family doctor would have to do.

If you have pain relating to bones - think pain relating to back, joints, he is the type doc you want to be with.  That is his specialty so he knows what to do to relieve present pain, find the cause and fix it if it is possible to fix.

On one visit, I told him I have been on a certain pain pill for a long time and I have never felt "high" or "down", or anything taking these pills.  He said, "That is because you have real pain.  A person taking pills for real pain feel nothing except relief of pain.  If you don't have pain and take them, you will feel them in other ways."

I am able to use my arms which I could not do when I went there.  You can likely move your arm to your head - I could not do that. Now I can.

[roamer_1]

What are you talking about? I was in the hospital a couple years ago and the doctor gave me 4 effing scrips for Oxi as a parting gift for "Just in case". I had them filled for dirt cheap even though I didn't plan on using them. I was shocked at how cheap. I still have them in case I am short some cash with a junkie whore.

I know exactly what I am talking about (though a few years hence)... I have bought them on my prescription... I have bought them from others with prescriptions (a sort of share program if you are running short), I have bought them off the street, and I have bought them directly from Mexico.

You are going to solve nothing  - Nothing - so long as they are coming up from Mexico at such a margin. No production, no regulated materials, no grow sites, little packaging.... Just a little money and an existing distribution system. No work, great profit. I am surprised you aren't already involved in it.

[Frank Cannon]

No work, great profit. I am surprised you aren't already involved in it.

I know. I didn't know the margins were so good on this racquet. It also gives me another angle to get more of my tenants cash. I was thinking about getting into the check cashing business, but the overhead on moving script pills is non existent. I'll have to run this by my accountant tomorrow!

[Cyber Liberty]

On one visit, I told him I have been on a certain pain pill for a long time and I have never felt "high" or "down", or anything taking these pills.  He said, "That is because you have real pain.  A person taking pills for real pain feel nothing except relief of pain.  If you don't have pain and take them, you will feel them in other ways."

@Victoria33

That is word for word what my Orthopod told me when he said I was going for a hip replacement.  I was concerned about developing an addiction during my post-surgical recovery.  "No, people with genuine pain like you are going to have don't get addicted."  In fact, the Opioids were a crucial component of my recovery.  When the body is in severe pain, it does not mend the damage from surgery.  Your own body will fight you!

Stay out of pain = stay on track for recovery.  Painkillers aren't just nice to have, they are vital if you want to get better.  Don't be a badass.

The article, on the other hand, concerns chronic pain.  People who must take the meds for many years.  They need pain relief too.  The smart patients log and monitor their usage to ensure the dose and frequency remain constant, for if either starts to creep up there is a problem.

Only the patient or Caretaker can meter it properly.

[roamer_1]

On one visit, I told him I have been on a certain pain pill for a long time and I have never felt "high" or "down", or anything taking these pills.  He said, "That is because you have real pain.  A person taking pills for real pain feel nothing except relief of pain.  If you don't have pain and take them, you will feel them in other ways."

@Victoria33
I have an erstwhile friend who caught an addiction from the pain relief from a badly broken leg... In a year and a half, he turned that into a serious need - 90 hits of Norco 10's lasted him about 2 weeks... And he was begging, borrowing, and finally stealing twice to three times that much, after he spent everything he had to buy what he could from the street....

While it was absolutely evident to everyone around him that he was chasing the high, He was adamant that it gave him no high, just helping him think clearly and help him handle his depression. He is why I know that methadone programs are available. While our friendship didn't survive it all, I wish him well, and hope he can start flying right.

There is a high - I never felt it either, but my son being a cop, I was allowed to run the cop's driver's proving ground sober, and then lit with my 'normal' load. There is no doubt that I was driving impaired - Seriously impaired... That's one of the reasons I weaned off them. How I 'felt' them didn't tell the truth.

I am able to use my arms which I could not do when I went there.  You can likely move your arm to your head - I could not do that. Now I can.

YEP. Me too... I couldn't reach over shoulder height... and it was painful getting my hand to my ear...
A marvelous effect, not only getting pain relief, but also seriously better mobility.
 

[Victoria33]

@roamer_1

You said: "There is a high - I never felt it either, but my son being a cop, I was allowed to run the cop's driver's proving ground sober, and then lit with my 'normal' load. There is no doubt that I was driving impaired - Seriously impaired... That's one of the reasons I weaned off them. How I 'felt' them didn't tell the truth."

I don't have that problem, have a different one: I can't drive because, due to the cervical stenosis (neck), I can't turn my head to the right or left enough to see cars on either side of me.  If I drove, I would have to stay in the lane I was in, could not change lanes, could not turn my head enough to see the rear view mirror on the right side of car; would not know what was happening in the lanes to my left.  I would be a car crash driving.

[roamer_1]

I don't have that problem, have a different one: I can't drive because, due to the cervical stenosis (neck), I can't turn my head to the right or left enough to see cars on either side of me.  If I drove, I would have to stay in the lane I was in, could not change lanes, could not turn my head enough to see the rear view mirror on the right side of car; would not know what was happening in the lanes to my left.  I would be a car crash driving.

Not to trivialize your condition, @Victoria33 ... But then you more than others have the right to ameliorated pain. Because 'driving while intoxicated' is one of the few real dangers that is actually legitimate... And one which I was not made aware of, beyond the standard 'Do not operate heavy machinery'...

[Victoria33]

Not to trivialize your condition, @Victoria33 ... But then you more than others have the right to ameliorated pain. Because 'driving while intoxicated' is one of the few real dangers that is actually legitimate... And one which I was not made aware of, beyond the standard 'Do not operate heavy machinery'...

@roamer_1
@mystery-ak

This year in October was one where I had to actually go to Texas Dept. of Motor Vehicles to renew driver's license; couldn't do it on line this time.  So, I go there and the line is out the door (but inside the building).  Had to stand for a long time, maybe 30-45 min. before I could get inside the door and get a seat; then waited some more.  There was a young black woman sitting next to me using her phone.  I had bought a number of new pens that do three things.  There is a stylus where the pen point would be; then turn the pen and a pen point comes out where the stylus is.  On the top is a bit of glass - punch it down and it is a flashlight.  I had one of the new pens with me and gave it to her.  She was delighted with it and gave me a hug.

Then, I was finally taken to one of the workers inside an office. She got my info/present license, etc., and gave me the eye test which I passed.  If she had asked me to turn my head, I would have failed. Luckily, or unluckily, they don't know some people cannot turn their head.

Giving a small gift makes a difference (gift of pen made us instant friends):
Maids come to clean this house every other week.  The last time they came before this week, I was doing Bible work for my Bible class and one of the maids asked me what I was doing with the Bible. I gave her three book marks in the shape of a cross and said I taught a Bible class. She is Spanish but spoke good English.  She said she was going to Dallas every week to church and that was too far to go.

She is Catholic so I told her we go to the Catholic Church in Grapevine.  Gave her a church bulletin from our church which has the Mass times.  Sooo, yesterday when they came to clean, she said she went to the Grapevine Catholic church, the Mass for Spanish speaking people and she loved it.  That is now her church.

A little gift to someone means you care about him/her - that as a human being we are all together on this planet.

[Cyber Liberty]

@Victoria33

We have a few hundred pens like that.  Mrs. Liberty ordered scads of them from Ambassador, some with our name, some say "Happy Halloween!" and another bunch for her family reunion a couple years back.

They are cheaper by the hundred, and that price is a drop in the bucket compared to how much good will we get from them.  And you're correct, they are great icebreakers because we give them to people we meet all the time.  Guy came to quote us new flooring, "Keep the pen.  Take extras for the people I talk to on the phone!"  Etc.  Still have a couple hundred to go.  We might get a batch to commemorate our new Castle.

[Victoria33]

@Victoria33

We have a few hundred pens like that.  Mrs. Liberty ordered scads of them from Ambassador, some with our name, some say "Happy Halloween!" and another bunch for her family reunion a couple years back.

They are cheaper by the hundred, and that price is a drop in the bucket compared to how much good will we get from them.  And you're correct, they are great icebreakers because we give them to people we meet all the time.  Guy came to quote us new flooring, "Keep the pen.  Take extras for the people I talk to on the phone!"  Etc.  Still have a couple hundred to go.  We might get a batch to commemorate our new Castle.

@Cyber Liberty

Bob and I have a thing about pens; we each have many.  My "love" of pens goes back to me in the fifth grade.  There was a new pen - it was called a "ball point pen".  No student had one of these pens as they were expensive.  My mother bought me one at a big (for that time) jewelry store.  We had penmanship/writing class at school in those days.  I was so proud of my pen.  The teacher was impressed with the pen and said my handwriting was improved with this pen.

Pens are so cheap these days that I have many; but I remember that expensive pen.  I love every pen I have - never got over that first expensive ball point pen.

[Cyber Liberty]

@Cyber Liberty

Bob and I have a thing about pens; we each have many.  My "love" of pens goes back to me in the fifth grade.  There was a new pen - it was called a "ball point pen".  No student had one of these pens as they were expensive.  My mother bought me one at a big (for that time) jewelry store.  We had penmanship/writing class at school in those days.  I was so proud of my pen.  The teacher was impressed with the pen and said my handwriting was improved with this pen.

Pens are so cheap these days that I have many; but I remember that expensive pen.  I love every pen I have - never got over that first expensive ball point pen.

@Victoria33

Mrs. Liberty loves Fountain Pens as "Our Special Pens."  She has a couple of sets of Calligraphy pens with all sorts of nibs.  She has beautiful handwriting, mine is chicken scratching.  A good fountain pen will set you back a few hundred bucks.

[GtHawk]

We need to set them up in cheap labor work camps so that we can more easily compete with the Chinamen.

But, why stop at orphan kids? Round up all the little street urchins and the ones that are failing in school and teach them a trade, it'll be a twofer!

[roamer_1]

A little gift to someone means you care about him/her - that as a human being we are all together on this planet.

Yep! I agree!

PS: Sorry it took me so long to reply, but I have been w/o internet/phones/TV all day... Something major happened to Spectrum Cable up here... 

[Victoria33]

Yep! I agree!
PS: Sorry it took me so long to reply, but I have been w/o internet/phones/TV all day... Something major happened to Spectrum Cable up here... 

@roamer_1

Oh, My!  Had I known you were without communication, I would have sent you a care package by snail mail - a box of tranquilizers for you to take to calm you until it was all back.  I think young people today could not function at all if something happened to their phone.