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Offline WingNot

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Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« on: March 19, 2018, 07:15:10 pm »
Oppps.   who would have thunk it possible?

SAN FRANCISCO — An Uber self-driving car hit and killed a woman in Tempe, Ariz., Sunday night, an incident that might deliver a setback to the otherwise feverish development of autonomous transportation.

The Uber car was in self-driving mode when the accident occurred, but had a safety driver at the wheel as is the norm when testing such vehicles, according to local police.

Uber issued a statement saying that it was "fully cooperating with local authorities." In wake of the incident, the ride-hailing company has temporarily halted its self-driving testing in Pittsburgh, San Francisco and Toronto, as is its policy following any accident.

The woman, who has not yet been named, was crossing outside the designated crosswalk at about 10 p.m. when she was hit, police said.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2018/03/19/uber-self-driving-car-kills-arizona-woman/438473002/
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2018, 07:26:21 pm »
but had a safety driver at the wheel

Why bother if the robot cars are going to kill people anyway.
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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2018, 07:35:05 pm »
The car actually had a backup driver in it, too. 

Apparently Arizona requires these companies to keep and share very little data.  That's why everyone is training there.
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Offline WingNot

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2018, 08:48:22 pm »
Anyone hear from Cuber Liberty today? 

Just say'n.
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2018, 08:52:13 pm »
The key seems to be that she was crossing the street not at a crosswalk.

...and that's the kernel, that UBER's attorneys will focus upon.
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Offline WingNot

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2018, 08:54:10 pm »
Quote from: DCPatriot on March 19, 2018, 08:52:13 pm
The key seems to be that she was crossing the street not at a crosswalk.

...and that's the kernel, that UBER's attorneys will focus upon.

Ain't no jury gonna side with a robot.  They better settle this thing before it even smells like a jury trial is in the air.
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Offline Polly Ticks

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2018, 09:02:52 pm »
Quote from: Wingnut on March 19, 2018, 08:54:10 pm
Ain't no jury gonna side with a robot.  They better settle this thing before it even smells like a jury trial is in the air.

Yep.  The first thing we learned in Drivers' Ed was "pedestrians ALWAYS have the right of way."  He said it so often I was sick of hearing it.

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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2018, 09:30:18 pm »
Quote from: Wingnut on March 19, 2018, 08:48:22 pm
Anyone hear from Cuber Liberty today? 

Just say'n.

Missed me by that much.

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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2018, 09:32:21 pm »
Quote from: DCPatriot on March 19, 2018, 08:52:13 pm
The key seems to be that she was crossing the street not at a crosswalk.

...and that's the kernel, that UBER's attorneys will focus upon.

People walk outside the crosswalks all the time.  I suggest the Uber science guys concentrate on that.  This is one of the many ways AI can get tripped up in the "real world."  Humans do unexpected things, both as pedestrians and as drivers.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2018, 09:33:39 pm »
Quote from: Polly Ticks on March 19, 2018, 09:02:52 pm
Yep.  The first thing we learned in Drivers' Ed was "pedestrians ALWAYS have the right of way."  He said it so often I was sick of hearing it.

Me too.  I was so sick of it I almost wanted to mow some down during Drivers Training just to prove him right.... :whistle:
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Offline rustynail

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2018, 09:42:12 pm »
Cambridge Analytica hacked that car.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2018, 09:44:31 pm »
I thought this sounded familiar.  There was a high-speed crash of one of these cars a year ago in Tempe.  Uber didn't stop testing in Tempe then, and if I am to understand the story at the top of this thread, they're going to stop testing in other cities but continue testing in Tempe where they've already killed a pedestrian.

Link to last year's story:
https://www.wired.com/2017/03/uber-self-driving-crash-tempe-arizona/

Noteworthy:  Tempe Police said the Uber car was not "at fault" in the collision.  And what's Wired's conclusion?  "Ban human drivers." 9999hair out0000

Correction added:  Uber is also suspending testing in Phoenix, according to local news.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 09:48:53 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2018, 09:51:43 pm »
Quote from: Cyber Liberty on March 19, 2018, 09:44:31 pm
I thought this sounded familiar.  There was a high-speed crash of one of these cars a year ago in Tempe.  Uber didn't stop testing in Tempe then, and if I am to understand the story at the top of this thread, they're going to stop testing in other cities but continue testing in Tempe where they've already killed a pedestrian.

Link to last year's story:
https://www.wired.com/2017/03/uber-self-driving-crash-tempe-arizona/

Noteworthy:  Tempe Police said the Uber car was not "at fault" in the collision.  And what's Wired's conclusion?  "Ban human drivers." 9999hair out0000

Correction added:  Uber is also suspending testing in Phoenix, according to local news.

Ban human drivers?  Another law that wouldn't have stopped a fatality.  They need to ban human pedestrians.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 09:52:06 pm by Sanguine »
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2018, 09:55:15 pm »
Quote from: Sanguine on March 19, 2018, 09:51:43 pm
Ban human drivers?  Another law that wouldn't have stopped a fatality.  They need to ban human pedestrians.

They need to cut to the chase and just ban humans. 
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2018, 09:58:33 pm »
Quote from: Cyber Liberty on March 19, 2018, 09:55:15 pm
They need to cut to the chase and just ban humans.

Yeah, I didn't want to go quite that far.
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Offline massadvj

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2018, 10:08:53 pm »
The article says nothing about who was at fault.  Aren't pedestrians killed by human-controlled cars every day?  Why assume that his death would not have happened had a human been at the wheel?  In fact, there was a human in the car ready to take control, and it still happened. 

My guess is that investigators will find the pedestrian stepped in front of the vehicle and there was no time for the vehicle to stop.

These vehicles are equipped with sensors that detect obstacles of any kind in their path, and they are programmed to stop on a dime to avoid them with a reaction time of zero. If the car was functioning properly, then the pedestrian had to have stepped in front of the vehicle before it could stop.

The resistance to this technology reminds me of what occurred between horse owners and horseless carriages a hundred years ago.  One side has clearly been judged wrong by history, as will be the case here.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 10:10:13 pm by massadvj »
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Offline Sighlass

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2018, 10:12:15 pm »
Might be if we get a bunch of these cars to zoom along the border of Mexico we can reduce illegal influx.

_____________________

Seriously though, there is NO way to 100% get these cars to be perfect, mainly due to mass, size, speed and unpredictability of humans (pedestrians and other drivers). It is impossible to have a car in any environment where some human can't fling themselves out enough in time to be hit. That said, they perhaps can be made to the point they average to be safer than real drivers.
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Offline Sighlass

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2018, 10:14:42 pm »
Quote from: massadvj on March 19, 2018, 10:08:53 pm
The article says nothing about who was at fault.  Aren't pedestrians killed by human-controlled cars every day?  Why assume that his death would not have happened had a human been at the wheel?  In fact, there was a human in the car ready to take control, and it still happened. 

My guess is that investigators will find the pedestrian stepped in front of the vehicle and there was no time for the vehicle to stop.

These vehicles are equipped with sensors that detect obstacles of any kind in their path, and they are programmed to stop on a dime to avoid them with a reaction time of zero. If the car was functioning properly, then the pedestrian had to have stepped in front of the vehicle before it could stop..

You probable said it clearer than I managed to do. Agreed.
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2018, 10:51:25 pm »
Quote from: massadvj on March 19, 2018, 10:08:53 pm
The article says nothing about who was at fault.  Aren't pedestrians killed by human-controlled cars every day?  Why assume that his death would not have happened had a human been at the wheel?  In fact, there was a human in the car ready to take control, and it still happened. 

My guess is that investigators will find the pedestrian stepped in front of the vehicle and there was no time for the vehicle to stop.

These vehicles are equipped with sensors that detect obstacles of any kind in their path, and they are programmed to stop on a dime to avoid them with a reaction time of zero. If the car was functioning properly, then the pedestrian had to have stepped in front of the vehicle before it could stop.

The resistance to this technology reminds me of what occurred between horse owners and horseless carriages a hundred years ago.  One side has clearly been judged wrong by history, as will be the case here.

The supporters of adopting such technologies do themselves no favors, running down and killing people in America.

Uber has a history of really, really crappy management, too.

In fact if there is a tech company that deserves to fail, Uber is a prime candidate.
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Offline XenaLee

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2018, 10:57:48 pm »
Quote from: Cyber Liberty on March 19, 2018, 09:32:21 pm
People walk outside the crosswalks all the time.  I suggest the Uber science guys concentrate on that.  This is one of the many ways AI can get tripped up in the "real world."  Humans do unexpected things, both as pedestrians and as drivers.

I don't understand why they can't make it idiot proof (they'll have to) by cutting the gas or ignition if/when there is an object (person) in the way.  Hell, they make warning signals in cars now for people that are just backing in or parking their cars.  The tech ability is there. 
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2018, 11:05:57 pm »
Quote from: massadvj on March 19, 2018, 10:08:53 pm
The article says nothing about who was at fault.  Aren't pedestrians killed by human-controlled cars every day?  Why assume that his death would not have happened had a human been at the wheel?  In fact, there was a human in the car ready to take control, and it still happened. 

My guess is that investigators will find the pedestrian stepped in front of the vehicle and there was no time for the vehicle to stop.

These vehicles are equipped with sensors that detect obstacles of any kind in their path, and they are programmed to stop on a dime to avoid them with a reaction time of zero. If the car was functioning properly, then the pedestrian had to have stepped in front of the vehicle before it could stop.

The resistance to this technology reminds me of what occurred between horse owners and horseless carriages a hundred years ago.  One side has clearly been judged wrong by history, as will be the case here.

The story says the woman was outside of the crosswalk, so I think the car is considered not at fault.   I think eventually we'll have "driverless cars."  It's probably inevitable.   But until AI develops the capacity to drive defensively, they'll be a menace to people.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2018, 11:13:53 pm »
Quote from: XenaLee on March 19, 2018, 10:57:48 pm
I don't understand why they can't make it idiot proof (they'll have to) by cutting the gas or ignition if/when there is an object (person) in the way.  Hell, they make warning signals in cars now for people that are just backing in or parking their cars.  The tech ability is there.

Say you're driving down a street with people on the side.  As a driver, what do you do?  You look at them to get visual cues as to what their intentions are about entering your road.  Are they indicating they see you?  If not, do they look like they're about to step into your path?

If you see people standing by the side of the street, do you slam on the brakes or turn off the car?

AI needs to be able to make judgements like this.  Until it can it's "not ready for prime time," and will kill more people.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 11:16:28 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline corbe

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2018, 12:06:59 am »
   Reminds me, for some reason, of this Heinlein Short Story, The Roads must Roll




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roads_Must_Roll
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Offline Polly Ticks

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2018, 12:10:07 am »
Quote from: XenaLee on March 19, 2018, 10:57:48 pm
I don't understand why they can't make it idiot proof (they'll have to) by cutting the gas or ignition if/when there is an object (person) in the way.  Hell, they make warning signals in cars now for people that are just backing in or parking their cars.  The tech ability is there.

The problem is that it is not really so black and white.  A human driver can understand that if a ball or a garbage can rolls into the street in front of you, it might be better to hit that object than to stop on a dime and have the guy behind you rear-end you. 
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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2018, 12:17:00 am »
From the article:
"The Uber car was in self-driving mode when the accident occurred, but had a safety driver at the wheel as is the norm when testing such vehicles, according to local police."

Refresh my dumb mind:
What's a "safety driver" for?
What did he/she do to prevent this accident from happening?
If nothing, then again, what's the "safety driver" for?
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