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Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2018, 12:58:43 am »
Quote from: Fishrrman on March 20, 2018, 12:17:00 am
From the article:
"The Uber car was in self-driving mode when the accident occurred, but had a safety driver at the wheel as is the norm when testing such vehicles, according to local police."

Refresh my dumb mind:
What's a "safety driver" for?
What did he/she do to prevent this accident from happening?
If nothing, then again, what's the "safety driver" for?

Well....it was ten at night, and it could have been in a gap in the streetlights.  Odds are the "safety" guy didn't see her either.  I had a friend hit somebody on his motorcycle that time of night not far from where this happened.
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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2018, 01:24:43 am »
Quote from: Cyber Liberty on March 19, 2018, 09:44:31 pm
I thought this sounded familiar.  There was a high-speed crash of one of these cars a year ago in Tempe.  Uber didn't stop testing in Tempe then, and if I am to understand the story at the top of this thread, they're going to stop testing in other cities but continue testing in Tempe where they've already killed a pedestrian.

Link to last year's story:
https://www.wired.com/2017/03/uber-self-driving-crash-tempe-arizona/

Noteworthy:  Tempe Police said the Uber car was not "at fault" in the collision.  And what's Wired's conclusion?  "Ban human drivers." 9999hair out0000

Correction added:  Uber is also suspending testing in Phoenix, according to local news.

Last year's accident involved another car that ran a red light -- that's why it wasn't Uber's fault.
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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2018, 01:40:34 am »
Quote from: LauraTXNM on March 20, 2018, 01:24:43 am
Last year's accident involved another car that ran a red light -- that's why it wasn't Uber's fault.

Correct.  I don't think a regular car could have avoided that wreck, which is why I assume they didn't stop the testing project.  This case is different, although the car probably still is not at fault, because there's question about the avoidability.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2018, 03:59:18 am »
The fact that a robot made a mistake doesn't make them not worth using. They are still far better drivers than humans. Humans will make a million mistakes for every one the robot makes.
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2018, 04:09:16 am »
Quote from: Dexter on March 20, 2018, 03:59:18 am
The fact that a robot made a mistake doesn't make them not worth using. They are still far better drivers than humans. Humans will make a million mistakes for every one the robot makes.

Sorry Charlie. This robot just plowed down a woman that no human drivers did. You want to be shuttled around in one of these plastic death machines, feel free. I'll stick to making my own decisions on the highway.
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Offline LauraTXNM

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2018, 04:19:14 am »
Quote from: Dexter on March 20, 2018, 03:59:18 am
The fact that a robot made a mistake doesn't make them not worth using. They are still far better drivers than humans. Humans will make a million mistakes for every one the robot makes.

Yep.  In this case, neither the robot NOR the human driver was able to stop the accident.  It probably was genuinely unavoidable.
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2018, 04:27:29 am »
Quote from: LauraTXNM on March 20, 2018, 04:19:14 am
Yep.  In this case, neither the robot NOR the human driver was able to stop the accident.  It probably was genuinely unavoidable.

Considering the Uber vehicle was a Volvo, a vehicle driven by the second worst drivers on the road (Subaru being the first) you are right this was going to happen no matter what.
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Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2018, 04:37:30 am »
Quote from: LauraTXNM on March 20, 2018, 04:19:14 am
Yep.  In this case, neither the robot NOR the human driver was able to stop the accident.  It probably was genuinely unavoidable.

That was the story about two cars, no fatalities.  This is a story about a pedestrian killed by the Uber car.  We don't know nearly enough about the circumstances here, other than the decedent was not in a crosswalk.  This would be a case of, if it was a human driver, an "error in judgement."  That's a big problem for the AI people to overcome.  It's what I've been trying to get across in the whole thread.  A self driving car has to exercise split-second judgement calls, and I don't think AI is up to that yet.

Someday it will be, but until it can do that, it's dangerous to put these on the same streets as human beings.  Humans make mistakes, and a self-driving car had better learn how to drive defensively or it's a menace.  The story of the cars crashing last year (that I apparently should not have linked because people are confusing the two) was probably unavoidable, but this case of a pedestrian fatality is going to get a much closer look from the people who have to decide whether AI driven cars are an acceptable risk.  Next time it might be you or me out there with a car arrogantly asserting its right of way.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 04:39:30 am by Cyber Liberty »
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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2018, 04:43:20 am »
Quote from: Frank Cannon on March 20, 2018, 04:09:16 am
Sorry Charlie. This robot just plowed down a woman that no human drivers did.

The big question for me, @Frank Cannon, is would a human have plowed her down?  If not, then it's full stop on robot cars until they have the same judgement and reflexes as a human.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2018, 04:45:35 am »
Quote from: massadvj on March 19, 2018, 10:08:53 pm
The resistance to this technology reminds me of what occurred between horse owners and horseless carriages a hundred years ago.  One side has clearly been judged wrong by history, as will be the case here.

I agree with you in that... Though I doubt we agree which side has been judged wrong by history.   :shrug: :whistle:
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2018, 04:52:10 am »
Quote from: Frank Cannon on March 20, 2018, 04:09:16 am
Sorry Charlie. This robot just plowed down a woman that no human drivers did. You want to be shuttled around in one of these plastic death machines, feel free. I'll stick to making my own decisions on the highway.

DITTOS.   888high58888
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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2018, 04:56:47 am »
Quote from: Cyber Liberty on March 20, 2018, 04:37:30 am
That was the story about two cars, no fatalities.  This is a story about a pedestrian killed by the Uber car.  We don't know nearly enough about the circumstances here, other than the decedent was not in a crosswalk.  This would be a case of, if it was a human driver, an "error in judgement."  That's a big problem for the AI people to overcome.  It's what I've been trying to get across in the whole thread.  A self driving car has to exercise split-second judgement calls, and I don't think AI is up to that yet.

Someday it will be, but until it can do that, it's dangerous to put these on the same streets as human beings.  Humans make mistakes, and a self-driving car had better learn how to drive defensively or it's a menace.  The story of the cars crashing last year (that I apparently should not have linked because people are confusing the two) was probably unavoidable, but this case of a pedestrian fatality is going to get a much closer look from the people who have to decide whether AI driven cars are an acceptable risk.  Next time it might be you or me out there with a car arrogantly asserting its right of way.

Actual drivers will also learn how to intimidate automated drivers that have to error on the side of caution. When traffic is heavy people can cutoff the automated driver and expect it to yield, perhaps nearly endlessly, whereas a human driver will not yield if being bullied.
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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2018, 05:01:14 am »
Quote from: DB on March 20, 2018, 04:56:47 am
Actual drivers will also learn how to intimidate automated drivers that have to error on the side of caution. When traffic is heavy people can cutoff the automated driver and expect it to yield, perhaps nearly endlessly, whereas a human driver will not yield if being bullied.

I'll agree that aggressive drivers are as dangerous as stupid ones.
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Online DB

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2018, 05:04:29 am »
A human can quickly tell the difference between a baby in the middle of the road verses a raccoon whereas a computer not so much. With a baby you'll likely drive off an embankment to try to avoid it. With a raccoon you ignore it. Is the computer going to drive you off a cliff to avoid a raccoon or drive over the baby as the compromise?
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2018, 05:04:30 am »
Quote from: Frank Cannon on March 20, 2018, 04:09:16 am
Sorry Charlie. This robot just plowed down a woman that no human drivers did. You want to be shuttled around in one of these plastic death machines, feel free. I'll stick to making my own decisions on the highway.

There will be circumstances where the self-driving cars get into accidents and people get killed. No matter how you spin it the robots are better drivers than humans. How often do completely sober drivers run down pedestrians by accident? The suggestion that the self-driving cars are unsafe is rather absurd. Accidents are going to happen. Your expectations of the robots far exceed the expectations you'd have for any human driver. That should tell you something.


EDIT:

Also, this...

Quote from: LauraTXNM on March 20, 2018, 04:19:14 am
Yep.  In this case, neither the robot NOR the human driver was able to stop the accident.  It probably was genuinely unavoidable.

The human failed to stop the accident too.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 05:05:34 am by Dexter »
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Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2018, 05:17:12 am »
Quote
No matter how you spin it the robots are better drivers than humans.

I give up.  Maybe next time it will be your town's street they send these death rockets down.
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Online DB

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2018, 05:33:52 am »
Quote from: Dexter on March 20, 2018, 05:04:30 am
There will be circumstances where the self-driving cars get into accidents and people get killed. No matter how you spin it the robots are better drivers than humans. How often do completely sober drivers run down pedestrians by accident? The suggestion that the self-driving cars are unsafe is rather absurd. Accidents are going to happen. Your expectations of the robots far exceed the expectations you'd have for any human driver. That should tell you something.


EDIT:

Also, this...

The human failed to stop the accident too.

So get in your robot car and go up Hwy 1 along the coast in California and see if you make it from LA to San Francisco... Even better go on a mountain country road with no guardrails... You'll find out how superior that technology is over people...
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 05:35:10 am by DB »
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2018, 05:42:08 am »
Quote from: Cyber Liberty on March 20, 2018, 04:43:20 am
The big question for me, @Frank Cannon, is would a human have plowed her down?  If not, then it's full stop on robot cars until they have the same judgement and reflexes as a human.

One thing I do that robots don't is look around and see situations that might happen. It's called experience. You will never teach a robot that people are too unpredictable.
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2018, 05:50:19 am »
Quote from: Dexter on March 20, 2018, 05:04:30 am
Your expectations of the robots far exceed the expectations you'd have for any human driver. That should tell you something.

No. The promises that you Driving Ban Advocates make is that robots are safe. This was an empty street with only this woman and this robot on it. Let us not forget about all the mishaps that Tesla cruise control has caused that Elon has payed to have brushed under the rug. Remember the dude that turned his Tesla and head into a convertible when the car drove under an 18 wheeler because the side of it was painted the wrong color for the computer to understand?
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Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2018, 01:02:55 pm »
Quote from: Frank Cannon on March 20, 2018, 05:42:08 am
One thing I do that robots don't is look around and see situations that might happen. It's called experience. You will never teach a robot that people are too unpredictable.

That's exactly what I've been gong on about, to the point that I sound like a broken record.  On top of that, they're playing around with this shit in MY TOWN.  I work in Tempe.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 01:03:27 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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Offline thackney

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2018, 01:20:26 pm »
Quote from: XenaLee on March 19, 2018, 10:57:48 pm
I don't understand why they can't make it idiot proof (they'll have to) by cutting the gas or ignition if/when there is an object (person) in the way.  Hell, they make warning signals in cars now for people that are just backing in or parking their cars.  The tech ability is there.

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Offline WingNot

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2018, 01:20:48 pm »
Couple of points,
 A. Liberals want everyone on autonomous self driving public transportation or similar personal conveyances.   This uber crap in AZ is the beginning of the end of seeing the USA in your Chevrolet.

Secondly, "They" keep saying the car was not at fault.  That Maybe true by a legal standard.  However, you can bet your bippy there is negligence and in a court of law....uber is going to pay dearly.
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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2018, 01:30:08 pm »
Can we just admit that this self-driving car crap is a bad idea and at best a pie in the sky fantasy?
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Online DCPatriot

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2018, 01:47:04 pm »
Quote from: Weird Tolkienish Figure on March 20, 2018, 01:30:08 pm
Can we just admit that this self-driving car crap is a bad idea and at best a pie in the sky fantasy?

IMO, driving a car is one of life's greatest pleasures and freedoms.  In THAT order.

...especially if it's an M series BMW...sans the paddles.    :laugh:

What is the joy of turning over THAT to a robot?   
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Offline WingNot

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Re: Uber self-driving car kills Arizona woman, realizing worst fears of the new tech
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2018, 02:00:46 pm »
Quote from: DCPatriot on March 20, 2018, 01:47:04 pm
IMO, driving a car is one of life's greatest pleasures and freedoms.  In THAT order.

...especially if it's an M series BMW...sans the paddles.    :laugh:

What is the joy of turning over THAT to a robot?

DC,  You are so old you got your kicks on route 66!   :smokin:
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