Author Topic: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative  (Read 22265 times)

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Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2017, 08:55:59 pm »
So you believe the absence of a law makes the act of nine appointed people (who have NO authority to make law) ... into the law???
That is very dangerous thinking, especially when one party is in control of the White House, both houses of Congress, the majority of state governments, and arguably, the SCOTUS.

I wouldn't give him that much credit.  He's said repeatedly what SCOTUS says or does not say is THE LAW, no questions allowed, and the people had just better suck it up and knuckle under, or go to jail.  I'm amazed he isn't advocating Moore be tossed in the slammer for daring to defy his judicial interpretations RE:  the 10 Commandments Monument thing alone.
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Online Bigun

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2017, 08:59:40 pm »
"The judiciary...may truly be said to have neither FORCE nor WILL, but merely judgment..."
-- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #78

But I'm certain that our friend will argue with that as well!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 09:02:11 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2017, 09:04:08 pm »
"The judiciary...may truly be said to have neither FORCE nor WILL, but merely judgment..."
-- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #78

We have an Executive and Legislature that were more than happy to give up our rights to the Judiciary for political expediency.  That's why things are as they are, and it suits some folks just fine to sit back and declare the Judges are "The Law." 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 09:04:26 pm by Cyber Liberty »
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Online Bigun

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2017, 09:07:20 pm »
We have an Executive and Legislature that were more than happy to give up our rights to the Judiciary for political expediency.  That's why things are as they are, and it suits some folks just fine to sit back and declare the Judges are "The Law."

Only for the last 150 years or so!  Prior to 1860 the story was vastly different!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline kidd

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2017, 09:11:26 pm »
I wouldn't give him that much credit.  He's said repeatedly what SCOTUS says or does not say is THE LAW, no questions allowed, and the people had just better suck it up and knuckle under, or go to jail.  I'm amazed he isn't advocating Moore be tossed in the slammer for daring to defy his judicial interpretations RE:  the 10 Commandments Monument thing alone.
I'm trying to be civil.
I've erased a lot of things I was going to say.
The Preview button is my friend.

But you make a good point. Moore was NOT thrown in jail.
Why? Because there is no law against what he did. Not even a presumed "law of the land" with imaginary punitive guidelines.
The ACLU took Moore to court. The court issued a ruling in favor the ACLU based on the separation of church and state guidance. Moore refused to comply with the court order. Still no jail. So the courts resorted to removing his judicial authority. Still no jail.

The court, the court the court, the court.

The author of the article tries to make the case that Moore is not a Constitutionalist because Moore won't accept judicial activism.
It's a strange argument...one that takes just a little digging to refute for its absurdity.

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2017, 09:15:52 pm »
I'm trying to be civil.
I've erased a lot of things I was going to say.
The Preview button is my friend.

But you make a good point. Moore was NOT thrown in jail.
Why? Because there is no law against what he did. Not even a presumed "law of the land" with imaginary punitive guidelines.
The ACLU took Moore to court. The court issued a ruling in favor the ACLU based on the separation of church and state guidance. Moore refused to comply with the court order. Still no jail. So the courts resorted to removing his judicial authority. Still no jail.

The court, the court the court, the court.

The author of the article tries to make the case that Moore is not a Constitutionalist because Moore won't accept judicial activism.
It's a strange argument...one that takes just a little digging to refute for its absurdity.

You are nice.  I am not.   :seeya:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline musiclady

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2017, 09:18:35 pm »
The separation of church and state originated in an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper.

It is a good guideline, but it is only a guideline. It is not in the Constitution; it is not even implied by the Constitution. No authoritative vote has implemented this guideline at the Federal level.
I am not aware if separation of church and state has been (or has not been) implemented at the state level. But at the Federal level it is a judicial guideline, not the Constitution.

The First Amendment never intended to separate Christian principles from government. And the Ten Commandments are NOT incompatible with secular government

 goopo

There is NO "separation of Church and State" in the Constitution.

IIRC, it was Statist FDR's black robed bullies whose Progressive activism fooled some people into believing it is.

Obviously, there are some still fooled.    :shrug:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Online Bigun

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2017, 09:19:49 pm »
I'm trying to be civil.
I've erased a lot of things I was going to say.
The Preview button is my friend.

But you make a good point. Moore was NOT thrown in jail.
Why? Because there is no law against what he did. Not even a presumed "law of the land" with imaginary punitive guidelines.
The ACLU took Moore to court. The court issued a ruling in favor the ACLU based on the separation of church and state guidance. Moore refused to comply with the court order. Still no jail. So the courts resorted to removing his judicial authority. Still no jail.

The court, the court the court, the court.

The author of the article tries to make the case that Moore is not a Constitutionalist because Moore won't accept judicial activism.
It's a strange argument...one that takes just a little digging to refute for its absurdity.

@kidd

Roy Moore was not thrown in Jail for the very same reason(s) that Jefferson Davis, Robert  e. Lee, and a host of others were never tried for, much less convicted of, their alleged crimes.   I.E. There weren't any!

I wish we had a couple of hundred others like Roy Moore in Congress who actually DO understand the relationships between the branches of our government properly!

« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 09:22:57 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline INVAR

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2017, 10:05:49 pm »
Obviously, there are some still fooled.    :shrug:

No, they are not fooled.

They have an agenda to push.

Every evil and wickedness must be accepted and promoted as an inalienable right, every enumerated Constitutional right can be "reasonably" abolished and restricted according to our resident Leftist pretending to be a Conservative so he can FOOL as many of you as possible into thinking what he stands for is where Conservatism is at.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Fantom

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2017, 11:19:19 pm »
Roy Moore mocks the Constitution, and especially the Establishment Clause of the first amendment.   He does not deserve the support of Constitutional conservatives.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;


Seems the good Judge Moore is of very sound Constitutional mind when espousing/judging that States are not bound by this. The Constitutional prohibition is to limit Congress...the federal Congress. Ill reasoned/SCOTUS application of the 14th notwithstanding.
Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

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Offline Fantom

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2017, 11:22:00 pm »
goopo

There is NO "separation of Church and State" in the Constitution.



Yep, the only separation is "State from Church". And the federal State at that.
Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

Frederick Douglass

Offline musiclady

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2017, 11:26:35 pm »
No, they are not fooled.

They have an agenda to push.

Every evil and wickedness must be accepted and promoted as an inalienable right, every enumerated Constitutional right can be "reasonably" abolished and restricted according to our resident Leftist pretending to be a Conservative so he can FOOL as many of you as possible into thinking what he stands for is where Conservatism is at.

I disagree with you to a degree........

A lot of young people are just ignorant of everything in the Constitution, and they have heard so many people say the ignorant words "separation of Church and State" used to keep Christian influence at bay, that they actually believe it IS there.

(I'm not going so far as to claim that for our resident liberal).

The rest of your comment I agree with completely.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2017, 11:27:04 pm »
Yep, the only separation is "State from Church". And the federal State at that.

Exactly.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Emjay

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2017, 01:08:36 am »
Same here.

Seeing who are constantly trashing him here is validation enough.

I like him.  And he's not a democrat.

Two good reasons to vote for him.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Emjay

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2017, 01:12:26 am »
We have an Executive and Legislature that were more than happy to give up our rights to the Judiciary for political expediency.  That's why things are as they are, and it suits some folks just fine to sit back and declare the Judges are "The Law."

The Judiciary needs to be moved back to its previous position, interpreting law not making it.

Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2017, 01:22:27 am »
The Judiciary needs to be moved back to its previous position, interpreting law not making it.

In the famous words of philosopher/songwriter Leonard Cohen:

"Halleluiah."
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2017, 12:09:12 pm »
So you believe the absence of a law makes the act of nine appointed people (who have NO authority to make law) ... into the law???
That is very dangerous thinking, especially when one party is in control of the White House, both houses of Congress, the majority of state governments, and arguably, the SCOTUS.


This is not a matter of the SCOTUS "making law";  the wall of separation IS the Establishment Clause.  This isn't like Roe v. Wade where a right was found from the penumbras and emanations of the Constitution.   Have you read the opinion in Everson v. Board of Education?    I did last night, and was struck by the decision's discussion regarding the history of the Establishment Clause and how strongly the Founders were determined to make this a secular Republic.

The role of the Supreme Court in our Republic is to construe and interpret the law, and apply it to the facts of the disputes before it.  Their decisions create precedent, and the tradition of following precedent lends continuity to the Courts' rulings over the decades.    The legislature's role, when they deem it appropriate, is to overrule the decisions of courts by passing laws that make clear the community's intent.   

It is striking to note that that Congress,  after over a century of Court rulings making clear the Constitutional wall of separation,  has rarely if ever acted to disturb these rulings and codify the desires of those who oppose a strictly secular Republic.   It may just be that separation of church and state really and truly is the LAW OF THE LAND and firmly embedded in what it means to be an American.   
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 12:10:13 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2017, 12:14:10 pm »
The Judiciary needs to be moved back to its previous position, interpreting law not making it.

What is the difference between "interpreting law" and "making it"?  Keep in mind that the Court always rules in the context of a specific factual dispute before it. 

  The topic of the discussion is the Establishment Clause,  which is far more clear in its intent than the Second Amendment.   Is the longstanding position of the SCOTUS that the Establishment Clause erects a wall of separation between church and state an "interpretation" of the Constitution, or the "making of law"?   If the latter, please explain your reasoning.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2017, 12:25:03 pm »
I wouldn't give him that much credit.  He's said repeatedly what SCOTUS says or does not say is THE LAW, no questions allowed, and the people had just better suck it up and knuckle under, or go to jail.  I'm amazed he isn't advocating Moore be tossed in the slammer for daring to defy his judicial interpretations RE:  the 10 Commandments Monument thing alone.

Your love of hyperbole makes your posts sound foolish.   What the SCOTUS says IS the law, but that doesn't mean it cannot be changed by act of the legislature.   A few years ago, for example, the Court significantly narrowed the scope of the Age Discrimination in Employment Act, and the Congress quickly acted to overturn the Court's decision.   This is how the system works, and works all the time. 

But Congress has never acted in any significant way to overrule the SCOTUS's interpretation of the Establishment Clause.   One cannot just look at the words of the clause and argue with a straight face that there is no "separation of church and state" in the Constitution because those exact words aren't used.  The Court has the authority to construe the Constitution and, if you take the time to read cases like Everson, goes to great lengths to ground its ruling in the intent of the Founders.   

Part of being an American is showing respect for how the Constitutional system of checks and balances works.  It's a brilliant system,  and I find it inspiring that,  200-plus years later since the Constitution was adopted,  the Founders' aversion to the tyranny of religion and their determination to create a secular Republic still shines through bright and clear.   As I said in my initial post on this thread,  thank God for our Constitutional Republic and its wall of separation between church and state! 
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Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2017, 12:58:08 pm »
 :yawn2:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2017, 01:05:33 pm »
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #71 on: October 24, 2017, 01:10:18 pm »
Jazzhead,  all your arguments break down to "They are the power.  We must obey them." 



No.  We mustn't.   We must be true to the original meaning and intent of Democratically created laws,   not Liberal whims masquerading under the color of law. 

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #72 on: October 24, 2017, 01:24:52 pm »
Jazzhead,  all your arguments break down to "They are the power.  We must obey them." 



No.  We mustn't.   We must be true to the original meaning and intent of Democratically created laws,   not Liberal whims masquerading under the color of law.

No, everything I've said is consistent with the Constitution, its original intent, and its checks and balances.  Read the Everson opinion for some useful history regarding the Founders' suspicion of organized religion and its potential tyrannies, and their determination to create a secular Republic.   And the Constitution, while empowering the SCOTUS to interpret the Constitution, also permits the Congress to override the SCOTUS's rulings.   Those "Democratically created laws" that you demand have never materialized.  Why?  Because the Congress for over a century has had no serious objection to the wall of separation.

Liberal whims?   Try the consensus of the community.  Your position is not supported by either the law or the will of the people.  We are a secular Republic.   
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Offline RetBobbyMI

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #73 on: October 24, 2017, 01:24:53 pm »
The assertion we have to surrender our religious values that forged the nation when society becomes wicked and judicial activism abolishes by default the 1st Amendment right of free exercise - is bogus.  That is the entire argument made to insist Moore is unfit for office and "not" a Conservative.

If some judge rules the 4th Amendment does not apply to Whites because of White Privilege - and someone like Moore defies the rulings that strip Whites of their property and protects them, I guess in your estimation such a judge is unfit to serve in office.

No wonder we're going full tilt commie.

Moore is most definitely a Conservative, in the mold of Washington and Adams, especially the latter.
Exactly the reason I would support Roy Moore if I lived in Alabama, and I might someday when I decide to permanently move from northern rust belt.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #74 on: October 24, 2017, 01:27:18 pm »
No, everything I've said is consistent with the Constitution, its original intent, and its checks and balances.  Read the Everson opinion for some useful history regarding the Founders' suspicion of organized religion and its potential tyrannies, and their determination to create a secular Republic.   And the Constitution, while empowering the SCOTUS to interpret the Constitution, also permits the Congress to override the SCOTUS's rulings.   Those "Democratically created laws" that you demand have never materialized.  Why?  Because the Congress for over a century has had no serious objection to the wall of separation.

Liberal whims?   Try the consensus of the community.  Your position is not supported by either the law or the will of the people.  We are a secular Republic.   

Well luckily you're just a lone voice on a web forum and Roy Moore is going to be in Congress.

Quote
Your position is not supported by either the law or the will of the people.  We are a secular Republic.

You contradict yourself here.  The idea of a Republic is to counter the will/whims of the people.