Author Topic: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative  (Read 22263 times)

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2017, 05:30:45 pm »
And don't try to tell me that separation of church and state is in the Constitution.


Thank God that it is!   
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Offline Bigun

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2017, 05:38:41 pm »
Show it to me!  I can't find it and I assure you I have looked MANY times!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2017, 05:41:22 pm »
Show it to me!  I can't find it and I assure you I have looked MANY times!

I've done so, many times, but you've got me on ignore so I won't bother yet again.   
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Offline Bigun

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2017, 05:45:40 pm »
I've done so, many times, but you've got me on ignore so I won't bother yet again.

I have you on ignore because you don't have a CLUE as to what you are talking about and continue to demonstrate it daily!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline INVAR

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2017, 05:45:54 pm »
Thank God that it is!

Yeah, it's in the same exact place where Jesus endorses and approves of Homosexuality and homosexual "marriages".  That's where you will find the mythical 'separation of church and state' clause in the Constitution.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2017, 05:52:00 pm »
I read the article.

Camp's assertion is that Moore does not follow the Constitution based on only two arguments:
1. Moore opposed taking down a public display of the 10 Commandments
2. Moore refused to implement changes after the Obergefell decision

Regarding #1:
First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Congress has made no law about such a display. Camp is making the argument that Moore is not Constitutional because he refused to obey a court order (not a law) as a result of an ACLU lawsuit. And don't try to tell me that separation of church and state is in the Constitution.

Regarding #2:
The SCOTUS made a ruling, not a law. It is the obligation of Congress to follow through with a law after the SCOTUS ruling. Moore refused to make up a law based on a SCOTUS ruling and would have complied with the law, if a law making body (not the SCOTUS) had made a law that he could have followed.

I fully support Moore.

I agree, and I believe Moore is on strong Constitutional footing here.

Offline kidd

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2017, 06:15:51 pm »
I've done so, many times, but you've got me on ignore so I won't bother yet again.
The separation of church and state originated in an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper.

It is a good guideline, but it is only a guideline. It is not in the Constitution; it is not even implied by the Constitution. No authoritative vote has implemented this guideline at the Federal level.
I am not aware if separation of church and state has been (or has not been) implemented at the state level. But at the Federal level it is a judicial guideline, not the Constitution.

The First Amendment never intended to separate Christian principles from government. And the Ten Commandments are NOT incompatible with secular government
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 06:20:44 pm by kidd »

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2017, 06:40:42 pm »
I've done so, many times, but you've got me on ignore so I won't bother yet again.

I'm sure he would eventually see it, when some classless twit quotes you out of incredulity.  I can assure you if you dump a bunch of Court Decisions as your proof (as usual) there will be scoffing.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2017, 06:47:21 pm »
The separation of church and state originated in an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper.

It is a good guideline, but it is only a guideline. It is not in the Constitution; it is not even implied by the Constitution. No authoritative vote has implemented this guideline at the Federal level.
I am not aware if separation of church and state has been (or has not been) implemented at the state level. But at the Federal level it is a judicial guideline, not the Constitution.

The First Amendment never intended to separate Christian principles from government. And the Ten Commandments are NOT incompatible with secular government

The principle of separation of church and state has been affirmed by the Supreme Court of the United on the basis of  the establishment clause.  The Court has even used the phrase "wall of separation" to describe the purpose of the establishment clause.   Unless you're a crank who rejects the authority of the SCOTUS to interpret and construe the Constitution, the separation of church and state has been and remains the law of the land.

Personally,  I don't read the Constitution as denying the state the ability to speak generally of the nation's collective faith in God - look at what's printed on the money - but prohibits the state from endorsing or favoring any particular religion.  A monument to the Ten Commandments in a public courthouse constitutes such an endorsement, does it not?   Don't forget that a number of the Commandments have nothing to do with the history of the civil law, but relate specifically to an individual's conduct of his relationship with God.  That's no business of the state!   
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 06:49:43 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Bigun

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2017, 06:55:44 pm »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline kidd

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2017, 07:12:00 pm »
The principle of separation of church and state has been affirmed by the Supreme Court of the United on the basis of  the establishment clause.  The Court has even used the phrase "wall of separation" to describe the purpose of the establishment clause.   Unless you're a crank who rejects the authority of the SCOTUS to interpret and construe the Constitution, the separation of church and state has been and remains the law of the land.

Personally,  I don't read the Constitution as denying the state the ability to speak generally of the nation's collective faith in God - look at what's printed on the money - but prohibits the state from endorsing or favoring any particular religion.  A monument to the Ten Commandments in a public courthouse constitutes such an endorsement, does it not?   Don't forget that a number of the Commandments have nothing to do with the history of the civil law, but relate specifically to an individual's conduct of his relationship with God.  That's no business of the state!   
The First Amendment never intended to separate Christian principles from government. yet today we so often heart the First Amendment couples with the phrase "separation of church and state." The First Amendment simply states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting and establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Obviously, the words "separation," "church," or "state" are not found in the First Amendment; furthermore, that phrase appears in no founding document.

While most recognize the phrase "separation of church and state," few know its source; but it is important to understand the origins of that phrase. What is the history of the First Amendment?

The process of drafting the First Amendment made the intent of the Founders abundantly clear; for before they approved the final wording, the First Amendment went through nearly a dozen different iterations and extensive discussions.

Those discussions—recorded in the Congressional Records from June 7 through September 25 of 1789—make clear their intent for the First Amendment. By it, the Founders were saying: "We do not want in America what we had in Great Britain: we don’t want one denomination running the nation. We will not all be Catholics, or Anglicans, or any other single denomination. We do want God’s principles, but we don’t want one denomination running the nation."

This intent was well understood, as evidenced by court rulings after the First Amendment. For example, a 1799 court declared:

"By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing."

Again, note the emphasis: "We do want Christian principles—we do want God’s principles—but we don’t want one denomination to run the nation."

In 1801, the Danbury Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, heard a rumor that the Congregationalist denomination was about to be made the national denomination. That rumor distressed the Danbury Baptists, as it should have. Consequently, the fired off a litter to President Thomas Jefferson voicing their concern. On January 1, 1802, Jefferson wrote the Danbury Baptists, assuring them that "the First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state."

His letter explained that they need not fear the establishment of a national denomination—and that while the wall of the First Amendment would protect the church from government control—there always would be open and free religious expression of all orthodox religious practices, for true religious expression of all orthodox religious practices, for true religious duties would never threaten the purpose of government. The government would interfere with a religious activity was a direct menace to the government or to the overall peace and good order of society. (Later Supreme Court identified potential "religious" activities in which the government might interfere: things like human sacrifice, bigamy or polygamy, the advocation of immorality or licentiousness, etc. If any of these activities were to occur in the name of "religion," then the government would interfere, for these were activities which threaten public peace and safety; but with orthodox religious practices, the government would not interfere).

Today, all that is heard of Jefferson’s letter is the phrase, "a wall of separation between church and state," without either the context, or the explanation given in the letter, or its application by earlier courts. The clear understanding of the First Amendment for a century-and-a-half was that it prohibited the establishment of a single national denomination. National policies and rulings in that century-and-a-half always reflected that interpretation.

For example, in 1853, a group petitioned Congress to separate Christian principles from government. They desired a so-called "separation of church and state" with chaplains being turned out of the congress, the military, etc. Their petition was referred to the House and the Senate Judiciary Committees, which investigated for almost a year to see if it would be possible to separate Christian principles from government.

Both the House and the Senate Judiciary Committees returned with their reports. The following are excerpts from the House report delivered on Mary 27, 1854 (the Senate report was very similar):

"Had the people [the Founding Fathers], during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle. At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, but not any one sect [denomination]…. In this age, there is no substitute for Christianity…. That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants."

Two months later, the Judiciary Committee made this strong declaration:

"The great, vital, and conservative element in our system [the thing that holds our system together] is the believe of our people in the pure doctrines and divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

The Committees explained that they would not separate these principles, for it was these principles and activities which had made us so successful—they had been our foundation, our basis.

During the 1870s, 1880s, and 1890s, yet another group which challenged specific Christian principles in government arrived before the Supreme Court. Jefferson’s letter had remained unused for years, for as time had progressed after its use in 1802—and after no national denomination had been established—his letter had fallen into obscurity. But now—75 years later—in the case Reynolds v. United States, the plaintiffs resurrected Jefferson’s letter, hope to use it to their advantage.

In that case, the Court printed an lengthy segment of Jefferson’s letter and then used his letter on "separation of church and state" to again prove that it was permissible to maintain Christian values, principles, and practices in official policy. For the next 15 years during that legal controversy, the Supreme Court utilized Jefferson’s letter to ensure that Christian principles remained a part of government.

Following this controversy, Jefferson’s letter again fell into disuse. It then remained silent for the next 70 years until 1947, when, in Everson v. Board of Education, the Court, for the first time, did not cite Jefferson’s entire letter, but selected only eight words from it. The Court now announced:

"The First Amendment has erected ‘a wall of separation between church and state.’ That wall must be kept high and impregnable."

This was a new philosophy for the Court. Why would the Court take Jefferson’s letter completely out of context and cite only eight of its words? Dr. William James, the Father of modern Psychology—and a strong opponent of religious principles in government and education—perhaps explained the Court’s new strategy when he stated:

"There is nothing so absurd but if you repeat it often enough people will believe it."

This statement precisely describes the tact utilized by the Court in the years following its 1947 announcement. The Court began regularly to speak of a "separation of church and state," broadly explaining that, "This is what the Founders wanted—separation of church and state. This is their great intent." The Court failed to quote the Founders; it just generically asserted that this is what the Founders wanted.

The courts continued on this track so steadily that, in 1958, in a case called Baer v. Kolmorgen, one of the judges was tired of hearing the phrase and wrote a dissent warning that if the court did not stop talking about the "separation of church and state," people were going to start thinking it was part of the Constitution. That warning was in 1958!

Nevertheless, the Court continued to talk about separation until June 25th, 1962, when, in the case Engle v. Vitale, the Court delivered the first ever ruling which completely separated Christian principles from education.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/987191/posts
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 08:47:44 pm by kidd »

Offline INVAR

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2017, 07:15:12 pm »
The principle of separation of church and state has been affirmed by the Supreme Court of the United on the basis of  the establishment clause.

BIG. FAT.  LIE.

Which is all you are capable spewing of it seems.

It was created out of thin air the same way homosexual marriage and health care rights have been magically created.

The Court has even used the phrase "wall of separation" to describe the purpose of the establishment clause. 

Hugo Black and the court decided to make Jefferson's personal letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1801 as the cassus belli of establishing a false "clause" that never existed in the Constitution at all.  "The wall of separation" has been since it was used, the tool to get rid of biblical religion in America altogether.  Jefferson's letter affirms the fact that in the mind of Jefferson, the government had absolutely no role whatsoever in interfering with, prohibiting or promoting a specific denomination or religious creed.  He never said a damn thing about there needing to be a wall to separate religion from the public of which a majority of the Founders including Adams, Washington Carroll and even Franklin would have opposed based on their own writings about the necessity of biblical morality to preserve liberty.


Unless you're a crank who rejects the authority of the SCOTUS to interpret and construe the Constitution

I do.   I do not subscribe to the idiotic notion that SCOTUS is an infallible vicar of the Constitution. I reject tyranny and usurped authority being wielded by men and causes that gut the foundations of liberty wherever it is found. SCOTUS like the vast majority of our corrupted institutions no longer operate within the bounds constructed or constrained for it by the Constitution which it ignores and circumvents at it's own pleasure, making it is as lawless as the rest of the corrupted government that rules us.

A monument to the Ten Commandments in a public courthouse constitutes such an endorsement, does it not?

Only to a people who hate God and hate the foundational precepts of Western Morality and Civilization, which you do.

Don't forget that a number of the Commandments have nothing to do with the history of the civil law, but relate specifically to an individual's conduct of his relationship with God.  That's no business of the state!   

You make it your business every single time you want to force us to serve homosexuality while advocating punishing citizens for their relationship with God which you insist must be usurped to the power of the state.
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Offline kidd

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2017, 07:25:01 pm »
Unless you're a crank who rejects the authority of the SCOTUS to interpret and construe the Constitution, the separation of church and state has been and remains the law of the land.
 

Please cite which precise Federal law/statute that establishes the separation of church and state. (hint: there isn't one). If you cannot, then it is not "law of the land"...it is a judicial guideline that is based on an incomplete quotation of Thomas Jefferson.

The SCOTUS does not make the law. A 55 year tradition of misinterpreting a Thomas Jefferson quote does not constitute a "law of the land".

Unless you're a CRANK who rejects the authority of Congress to make law.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 07:26:13 pm by kidd »

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2017, 07:29:34 pm »
Roy Moore mocks the Constitution, and especially the Establishment Clause of the first amendment.   He does not deserve the support of Constitutional conservatives.


No he does not.   It is all the Roosevelt appointed liars since the 1940s who have been deliberately misinterpreting the "establishment clause"  to mean something completely contrary to what it meant in 1787.   

The Constitution mentions Jesus in it,  and gives the President Sundays off because it was considered wrong to expect the President to work on the Sabbath.   

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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2017, 07:31:05 pm »

Did you read the article?? Why do you support him?


Because he has all the right enemies.   
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2017, 07:32:49 pm »
It happens all the time.  People may not advertise it, but one's worldview is to a great extent formed by one's religion or lack thereof.


Western Civilization ,  and especially our anathema to slavery is a product of Christianity.   


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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2017, 07:35:17 pm »
And you think a monument to the Quran would be appropriate in the center of the courthouse?


We don't have to tolerate a Quran.    We don't have to be fair to other religions.   The Constitution is deliberately biased towards Christianity,  and only modern courts have misinterpreted the "establishment clause"  to mean Christianity should be excised from Public lands and Public events.   


It doesn't mean what they claim,  and it never did. 

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2017, 07:37:29 pm »
Please cite which precise Federal law/statute that establishes the separation of church and state. (hint: there isn't one). If you cannot, then it is not "law of the land"...it is a judicial guideline that is based on an incomplete quotation of Thomas Jefferson.

The SCOTUS does not make the law. A 55 year tradition of misinterpreting a Thomas Jefferson quote does not constitute a "law of the land".

Unless you're a CRANK who rejects the authority of Congress to make law.

As things now stand, (I) the SCOTUS has affirmed, and affirmed again and again, the principle of separation between church and state, and (II) Congress has made no attempt to pass a law that would override that affirmation.

Hence - it remains the law of the land.   
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Offline INVAR

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2017, 07:41:08 pm »
As things now stand, (I) the SCOTUS has affirmed, and affirmed again and again, the principle of separation between church and state, and (II) Congress has made no attempt to pass a law that would override that affirmation.

Hence - it remains the law of the land.

It is no "law" at all and simply needs to be ignored and resisted when agents of the state attempt to abolish, infringe, restrict or abolish  our enumerated rights that the Courts and this government have decided on their own authority without any kind of Amendment to impose.
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...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2017, 07:48:50 pm »
The principle of separation of church and state has been affirmed by the Supreme Court of the United on the basis of  the establishment clause.


Roosevelt appointed courts.   I reject those out of hand.   You have to prove it with information available prior to him putting a bunch of liberal kooks on the court who deliberately distort the original meaning. 





 The Court has even used the phrase "wall of separation" to describe the purpose of the establishment clause.   Unless you're a crank who rejects the authority of the SCOTUS to interpret and construe the Constitution, the separation of church and state has been and remains the law of the land.


I reject anything a court says that is contrary to reality.   We've had far too many ridiculous rulings from the courts since Roosevelt warped the Federal Judiciary with all his liberal kooks.   


Roosevelt broke the judiciary.  Roosevelt broke sane law in this nation. 




Personally,  I don't read the Constitution as denying the state the ability to speak generally of the nation's collective faith in God - look at what's printed on the money - but prohibits the state from endorsing or favoring any particular religion. 


You use the term "state"  in the meaning of a national government on the one hand,  and then you use the word "state"  as one of the 50 individual states on the other.   

There are two different meanings for this very same word,  and it does not help for you to confuse which is which.   





A monument to the Ten Commandments in a public courthouse constitutes such an endorsement, does it not?   


In no manner does it constitute such regarding the Federal Government,  which is what the "establishment clause"  was intended to constrain.   In 1787,  several states still had official state religions,  and there were religious tests for office in those states.   


It is only through that horribly destructive 14th amendment did the Roosevelt courts come up with the pretext for applying restrictions meant for the Federal government to the states.   


That too is a false interpretation of the purpose and intent of the 14th amendment,  but the Liberal courts have been abusing the 14th amendment in this manner ever since.    If we get rid of that incorrect interpretation of the 14th amendment,  you cannot apply the "establishment clause"  to the states.   


States can do whatever they D@mn well please regarding religion.  "Court Houses"  (except for Federal Court houses)  are of the State's domain.   





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Offline Suppressed

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2017, 07:50:34 pm »


And what does the law say about plagiarism, I wonder?
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2017, 07:58:44 pm »

... The Constitution mentions Jesus in it .... 

Where?  Are you referring to the date stamp and "done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven"


« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 08:01:06 pm by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline kidd

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2017, 08:03:42 pm »
And what does the law say about plagiarism, I wonder?
Sorry, the original link no longer exists on the internet.
it only exists at TOS.

Here it is:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/987191/posts

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2017, 08:10:23 pm »
Where?  Are you referring to the date stamp and "done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven"


Yes.  "Our Lord"  means "Our Lord."   

If the Constitution wasn't meant to govern a Christian people,  they would have left that part out.  Also they wouldn't have exempted the President from Working on Sundays. 


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline kidd

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Re: CAMP: Roy Moore Is Not A Constitutional Conservative
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2017, 08:46:14 pm »
As things now stand, (I) the SCOTUS has affirmed, and affirmed again and again, the principle of separation between church and state, and (II) Congress has made no attempt to pass a law that would override that affirmation.

Hence - it remains the law of the land.
So you believe the absence of a law makes the act of nine appointed people (who have NO authority to make law) ... into the law???
That is very dangerous thinking, especially when one party is in control of the White House, both houses of Congress, the majority of state governments, and arguably, the SCOTUS.

The SCOTUS interprets and construes the meaning of laws. The SCOTUS can develop guidelines and use precedent to help them form their decisions. The particular "separation of church and state" has been accepted guidance only for the last 55 years of the 241 years of our republic. No one voted FOR it. No one. But let me make this perfectly clear...the SCOTUS has NO authority to make law. Not directly and not by absence of Congressional action.