Author Topic: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.  (Read 12911 times)

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Offline Ancient

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #175 on: September 21, 2017, 02:57:40 pm »
A wedding cake is a wedding cake.
And a pronoun is a pronoun, so you tell transgendered snowflakes to calm down?

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #176 on: September 21, 2017, 03:14:19 pm »
And a pronoun is a pronoun, so you tell transgendered snowflakes to calm down?

No, he only tells people he considers tribal religious bigots to calm down, transgendered snowflakes are to be respected for their free-thinking originality.  You might be new here, so you may not know this is SOP for him.

It worked, too.  Just like when I ask my wife to "calm down," and she does.  While she fetches her .380. :shrug:
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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #177 on: September 21, 2017, 03:16:55 pm »
If a person walks into my store, and I am forced to serve them, then in fairness they should be forced to make a purchase.  No more coming in to test the waters.  No, you walk in the door and you *must* make the purchase, just like I *must* provide the product.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #178 on: September 21, 2017, 03:26:13 pm »
And I am alright with that... As long as no one is being violent.
Doesn't bother me at all when I run into bias, especially if it is out front. No skin off my nose if they're too good for my money... I will just go somewhere else that thinks all money is green... or those among my kind, where I would likely be shopping anyway.

I don't think it is necessarily even a bad thing - My BIL is black, and I did not give my blessing on the marriage, figuring it was a lousy thing to do to an eventual kid - One of my best friends growing up was half black, half Mexican, and I know first hand the abuses he went through...

As it turns out, my nephew has not experienced much overt racism, being among redneck folks, where people are invariably judged upon merit, at least eventually.


My nephew (who is like a brother to me)  married a black woman and they have three children.  Nobody remarks on it.   There is a man I work with regularly who is half black,  and he is well liked by all and sundry.  He too has a "redneck"  manner of speaking and behavior,   and he fits in well with the other rednecks with whom he associates. 

"Cowboy Troy" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboy_Troy) is another fellow that fits in this mold,  and I even like one of his songs. 

For your listening pleasure:  "I play chicken with a train." 



https://youtu.be/NUPK9z59yUc


And while I'm at it.  Darius Rucker.



https://youtu.be/hvKyBcCDOB4


And of course the Pride of Country music.


https://youtu.be/hRIRTQ_k-Sg


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #179 on: September 21, 2017, 03:38:06 pm »
Actually, I agree with most of this, until you get all stupid at the end.   This issue is indeed serving all customers from the exact same menu.    The business owner determines the menu - hamburgers by the lunch counter, wedding cakes by the baker.   A black customer has the right to be served a hamburger, but not to demand grits that aren't on the menu.   By the same logic,  any customer - gay or straight - has the right to be provided with a wedding cake if that is what the baker advertises he's in business to provide.


Assuming your argument is correct,  (which I disagree that it is) this is a case of the tail waging the dog.  You would put the lesser principle of "equality"  ahead of the greater principle known as "freedom."   


Why should we accept government coercion in commerce or social affairs as opposed to letting individuals exercise their freedom to do as they wish,  so long as they are not assaulting someone?   


If we allow this encroachment into how they conduct their business,  how much longer will it be before we prohibit them from expressing certain opinions which do not meet with the approval of our government? 


In fact,  their refusal to bake a "gay"  wedding cake is an expression of their opinion on the matter.  It is a form of speech,  just as was Rosa' Park's refusal to stand an expression of her opinion. 


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #180 on: September 21, 2017, 03:42:41 pm »
A wedding cake is a wedding cake.


But you cannot have a wedding without one bride and one groom,  so therefore it wasn't a wedding cake.  It was a provocative political statement masquerading as "wedding" cake.




‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #181 on: September 21, 2017, 03:47:37 pm »

But you cannot have a wedding without one bride and one groom,  so therefore it wasn't a wedding cake.  It was a provocative political statement masquerading as "wedding" cake.

@DiogenesLamp Hadn't seen you around in a bit, glad to have you back.

Online Hoodat

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #182 on: September 21, 2017, 04:10:35 pm »
A wedding cake is a wedding cake.

How can it be a Colorado wedding cake without a Colorado wedding?  And more importantly, why do you get to be the arbiter of what a wedding cake is and not the baker himself?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #183 on: September 21, 2017, 04:11:19 pm »
@DiogenesLamp Hadn't seen you around in a bit, glad to have you back.


Good to see you and others again.   I'm hoping that after three months of absence I won't have to encounter so much "I hate Trump"  whining as there was three months ago.   

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline goatprairie

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #184 on: September 21, 2017, 04:39:52 pm »
How can it be a Colorado wedding cake without a Colorado wedding?  And more importantly, why do you get to be the arbiter of what a wedding cake is and not the baker himself?
Jazzhead does not realize he is telling bakers (or manufacturers of other products) what they must create. I don't believe that's quite in line with what we usually call freedom.
He could just as easily demand that people who create religious objects for certain religions must make them for all religions so as not to discriminate.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #185 on: September 21, 2017, 05:19:20 pm »
Yes, the customer has the right to purchase any product the baker (or other business owner) chooses to provide.  But the baker (or business owner) does not have to provide a product the customer demands though.
If I sell widgets painted only certain colors,  the customer can request a different color than what I advertise, but he has no right to demand it. If he doesn't like my business, he has the right to go to another business that will give him the color he wants. That's the way freedom works.

That's correct!  And that's why the baker broke the law -  he said he'd provide a product, and then arbitrarily reneged.   

The facts of the case show that the customer made no specific demands regarding the wedding cake - they merely asked for what he advertised to provide.  That's unlawful discrimination - and, IMO, bigotry masquerading in the guise of religion.  I'd think any Christian would be up in arms at having Jesus' name invoked to defend this man's arbitrary cruelty - but it appears that the principle of fair dealing eludes many.   
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Online Hoodat

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #186 on: September 21, 2017, 05:28:54 pm »
That's correct!  And that's why the baker broke the law -  he said he'd provide a product, and then arbitrarily reneged.

Not true.  He said he would provide a product for opposite-sex weddings - the only type sanctioned under Colorado law.


The facts of the case show that the customer made no specific demands regarding the wedding cake.

They most certainly do not show that.  The customers made it quite clear that they wanted a same-sex wedding cake.  Stop making things up, Jazzhead.


They merely asked for what he advertised to provide.

Nope.  They clearly asked for something he did not provide.  He offered to sell them things he did provide, but the cake they asked for was not one he provided.


That's unlawful discrimination - and, IMO, bigotry masquerading in the guise of religion.

The only bigotry on display here is the bigotry coming from you.  (See:  Contempt prior to investigation)


I'd think any Christian would be up in arms at having Jesus' name invoked to defend this man's arbitrary cruelty - but it appears that the principle of fair dealing eludes many.

Who said anything about Jesus here?  Besides you?

(See: Religious bigotry)
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #187 on: September 21, 2017, 05:47:10 pm »
LOL  Not being able to buy a custom wedding cake from one particular bakery is 'cruelty' now.   :odrama:

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #188 on: September 21, 2017, 06:01:04 pm »
LOL  Not being able to buy a custom wedding cake from one particular bakery is 'cruelty' now.   :odrama:

You don't believe arbitrary discrimination harms its victims?  It's humiliating to be told to sit at the back of the bus, to take your business elsewhere.    There's a reason these laws exist - prejudice exists, even if straight white folks don't tend to suffer from it.   
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Offline RoosGirl

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #189 on: September 21, 2017, 06:02:58 pm »
You don't believe arbitrary discrimination harms its victims?  It's humiliating to be told to sit at the back of the bus, to take your business elsewhere.    There's a reason these laws exist - prejudice exists, even if straight white folks don't tend to suffer from it.

It's not arbitrary.  It's all homosexual 'wedding' cakes.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #190 on: September 21, 2017, 06:03:49 pm »
You don't believe arbitrary discrimination harms its victims?  It's humiliating to be told to sit at the back of the bus, to take your business elsewhere.    There's a reason these laws exist - prejudice exists, even if straight white folks don't tend to suffer from it.


So why should it be a Federal case if someone is humiliated?   Do we now have a right not to be humiliated?   I missed that one in the bill of rights. 


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline roamer_1

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #191 on: September 21, 2017, 06:04:00 pm »
You don't believe arbitrary discrimination harms its victims?  It's humiliating to be told to sit at the back of the bus, to take your business elsewhere.    There's a reason these laws exist - prejudice exists, even if straight white folks don't tend to suffer from it.

Oh the whining and crying and throwing of dirt!
Oh, what petulant bullcrap.
We have an SJW in our midst.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #192 on: September 21, 2017, 06:04:06 pm »
Jazzhead does not realize he is telling bakers (or manufacturers of other products) what they must create. I don't believe that's quite in line with what we usually call freedom.
He could just as easily demand that people who create religious objects for certain religions must make them for all religions so as not to discriminate.

Shhhh!  Don't give them any bright ideas.  Soon the plastic Jesus factory will be turning out plastic Buddhas.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #193 on: September 21, 2017, 06:05:48 pm »
Hoodat, your argument is ridiculous.   The baker offered to sell wedding cakes.  His customer wanted no more, and no less, than what he advertised to provide.   The occasion for which the wedding cake was to be consumed is no business of the baker.   If he thinks it is, then he should do as he does today - offer no wedding cakes at all.   
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #194 on: September 21, 2017, 06:05:56 pm »
You don't believe arbitrary discrimination harms its victims?  It's humiliating to be told to sit at the back of the bus, to take your business elsewhere.    There's a reason these laws exist - prejudice exists, even if straight white folks don't tend to suffer from it.

The "back of the bus" stuff was a government mandate, not a private business thing.  There was no "taking your business elsewhere."  I suspect you knew that and are conflating the two on purpose.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #195 on: September 21, 2017, 06:08:54 pm »
Oh the whining and crying and throwing of dirt!
Oh, what petulant bullcrap.
We have an SJW in our midst.

No whining - just human nature.   Straight white folks tend not to suffer from discrimination, so they tend to lack empathy for those who do.     
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #196 on: September 21, 2017, 06:10:31 pm »
The "back of the bus" stuff was a government mandate, not a private business thing.  There was no "taking your business elsewhere."  I suspect you knew that and are conflating the two on purpose.

So you agree that arbitrary discrimination as practiced by government is wrong.  Good - now why isn't it wrong when practiced by a business that has the privilege of making money from the general public?   
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #197 on: September 21, 2017, 06:11:22 pm »
You don't believe arbitrary discrimination harms its victims?  It's humiliating to be told to sit at the back of the bus, to take your business elsewhere.    There's a reason these laws exist - prejudice exists, even if straight white folks don't tend to suffer from it.

How is it not arbitrary discrimination to say one group can be told no, but the other must be told yes? You're chastising the baker, but ignoring the same discrimination in the opposite direction.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #198 on: September 21, 2017, 06:12:59 pm »
No whining - just human nature.   Straight white folks tend not to suffer from discrimination, so they tend to lack empathy for those who do.   

That in itself is a bigoted and racist statement. 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 06:13:20 pm by txradioguy »
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #199 on: September 21, 2017, 06:13:13 pm »
No whining - just human nature.   Straight white folks tend not to suffer from discrimination, so they tend to lack empathy for those who do.   

That is total bullcrap.