Author Topic: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.  (Read 12821 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #250 on: September 21, 2017, 10:57:01 pm »
The wording of the appellate court ruling speaks for itself.


Please provide the link listing the baker's menu of service.  Thanks.  Because without it, I can only conclude that you are making up your own facts.  Again.


His reason for refusing is irrelevant.  Thoughts are not crimes.  At least not yet, no matter how much you wish to criminalize them.  And the fact that you continue to make it the issue only confirms your own bigotry.  It's OK for artists to discriminate, unless they happen to believe in Colorado's legal definition of marriage and the Bible.


Absolutely positively false.  You have been corrected on this point multiple times.  The fact that you continue to offer up this false account makes you a liar.

This is the very first paragraph of the background from the Colorado Court of Appeals.  You could have looked this up yourself, but insisted on lying instead:
In July 2012, Craig and Mullins visited Masterpiece, a bakery
in Lakewood, Colorado, and requested that Phillips design and
create a cake to celebrate their same-sex wedding. Phillips
declined, telling them that he does not create wedding cakes for
same-sex weddings because of his religious beliefs, but advising
Craig and Mullins that he would be happy to make and sell them
any other baked goods. Craig and Mullins promptly left
Masterpiece without discussing with Phillips any details of their
wedding cake. The following day, Craig’s mother, Deborah Munn,
called Phillips, who advised her that Masterpiece did not make
wedding cakes for same-sex weddings because of his religious
beliefs and because Colorado did not recognize same-sex marriages.

Do you see the part there where the baker offered to make them other baked goods?  Do you also see the part there where a woman who was not homosexual also requested a cake for a same-sex wedding and she was also refused?

THE COURT RECORD CLEARLY SHOWS THAT both a homosexual and a heterosexual were refused when requesting a cake for a same-sex wedding.  This has been pointed out to you again and again and again and again, yet here you are still lying about it.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Court_of_Appeals/Opinion/2015/14CA1351-PD.pdf


The bottom line here is that my opinion is based upon actual facts while yours is based on fantasy.


There is no unlawful bigotry in the conduct of commerce.  All customers are treated the same.  Requests for same-sex wedding cakes will be refused regardless of the sexual preference of the customer.  The court records prove that.  Conversely, requests for opposite-sex wedding cakes will be accepted regardless of the sexual preference of the customer.  This has been pointed out to you repeatedly.


« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 11:00:14 pm by txradioguy »
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Offline XenaLee

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #251 on: September 21, 2017, 11:00:08 pm »
 :thumbsup:
The wording of the appellate court ruling speaks for itself.


Please provide the link listing the baker's menu of service.  Thanks.  Because without it, I can only conclude that you are making up your own facts.  Again.


His reason for refusing is irrelevant.  Thoughts are not crimes.  At least not yet, no matter how much you wish to criminalize them.  And the fact that you continue to make it the issue only confirms your own bigotry.  It's OK for artists to discriminate, unless they happen to believe in Colorado's legal definition of marriage and the Bible.


Absolutely positively false.  You have been corrected on this point multiple times.  The fact that you continue to offer up this false account makes you a liar.

This is the very first paragraph of the background from the Colorado Court of Appeals.  You could have looked this up yourself, but insisted on lying instead:
In July 2012, Craig and Mullins visited Masterpiece, a bakery
in Lakewood, Colorado, and requested that Phillips design and
create a cake to celebrate their same-sex wedding. Phillips
declined, telling them that he does not create wedding cakes for
same-sex weddings because of his religious beliefs, but advising
Craig and Mullins that he would be happy to make and sell them
any other baked goods. Craig and Mullins promptly left
Masterpiece without discussing with Phillips any details of their
wedding cake. The following day, Craig’s mother, Deborah Munn,
called Phillips, who advised her that Masterpiece did not make
wedding cakes for same-sex weddings because of his religious
beliefs and because Colorado did not recognize same-sex marriages.

Do you see the part there where the baker offered to make them other baked goods?  Do you also see the part there where a woman who was not homosexual also requested a cake for a same-sex wedding and she was also refused?

THE COURT RECORD CLEARLY SHOWS THAT both a homosexual and a heterosexual were refused when requesting a cake for a same-sex wedding.  This has been pointed out to you again and again and again and again, yet here you are still lying about it.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Court_of_Appeals/Opinion/2015/14CA1351-PD.pdf


The bottom line here is that my opinion is based upon actual facts while yours is based on fantasy.


There is no unlawful bigotry in the conduct of commerce.  All customers are treated the same.  Requests for same-sex wedding cakes will be refused regardless of the sexual preference of the customer.  The court records prove that.  Conversely, requests for opposite-sex wedding cakes will be accepted regardless of the sexual preference of the customer.  This has been pointed out to you repeatedly.
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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #252 on: September 21, 2017, 11:03:24 pm »
I express my opinion, the same as you do.   No Christian who believes homosexuality is a sin should engage in the practice.  But if they're in the business of providing goods and services to the general public, they have a legal obligation to leave their religion out of it and not discriminate.

Nice.  Maybe if you're lucky, you can get SCOTUS to discard the free-exercise clause from Amendment I.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #253 on: September 21, 2017, 11:06:56 pm »



HA!  HA!  HA!

Indeed he was.  But, he'll just ignore it and go on repeating the lies.  We have how many hundreds of posts of it so far?  He's been pwned since the first page.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #254 on: September 21, 2017, 11:07:57 pm »
Let the bigots feel a bit of pain, I say.

Again, physician, heal thyself.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #255 on: September 21, 2017, 11:11:54 pm »
The issue at stake is the ability of a business owner to impose his religion on his customers, by refusing to serve those who are black, or gay, or on some other ARBITRARY basis that he "believes" his religion does not approve.

He is imposing nothing. He is not MAKING the customer buy. That would be imposition. The customer is free to walk out the door and find another shop.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #256 on: September 21, 2017, 11:17:06 pm »
I express my opinion, the same as you do.   No Christian who believes homosexuality is a sin should engage in the practice.



What I learned from the Bible is that three cities were utterly destroyed for merely tolerating the practice. 



But if they're in the business of providing goods and services to the general public, they have a legal obligation to leave their religion out of it and not discriminate.


They have a moral obligation to follow their religion.  So long as they leave other people alone,  they should be allowed to do so.   There is expressly worded verbiage in the Constitution that says they have a right to do so. 


 There is no "authority"  for forcing people to serve homosexuals other than a judge's say-so,  and then only recently.   Prior to that,  Judges used to lock up homosexuals for being non compos mentis. 

 


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Offline XenaLee

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #257 on: September 21, 2017, 11:22:25 pm »


What I learned from the Bible is that three cities were utterly destroyed for merely tolerating the practice. 




They have a moral obligation to follow their religion.  So long as they leave other people alone,  they should be allowed to do so.   There is expressly worded verbiage in the Constitution that says they have a right to do so. 


 There is no "authority"  for forcing people to serve homosexuals other than a judge's say-so,  and then only recently.   Prior to that,  Judges used to lock up homosexuals for being non compos mentis.

Imagine a world, if you will, ruled by people that think like Jazzhead.  Or.... look back in history.  There are plenty of examples of that thinking....

and how badly it ended.   Hell...just look at Venezuela for the most recent example.

When government controls all the people suffer.... and die.



No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline Ancient

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #258 on: September 21, 2017, 11:27:22 pm »
You don't get it.  A cake is a cake.   The purpose for which the cake will be used is not the concern of the baker.  Why does the baker care whether his three-level fancy cake is used for a wedding or a fraternity party?   

The baker can certainly care about the design of the cake.  He certainly can refuse to decorate the cake with an objectionable message.  But that's not what this baker did.  He had no dialogue concerning the artistry of the cake.  He simply refused service because the customers were gay.  His situation is different from the T-shirt maker who is the subject of the initial post on this thread.   I support the T-shirt maker.   I condemn the baker.  The difference is the T-shirt maker exercised his liberty to object to a message his conscience couldn't abide.  The baker was just being a bigot (IMO).
Since your version of the facts don't mesh with reailty as others have pointed out... are you going to now reverse your stance and support the baker?  Or are you just a bigot and arbitrarily condemn bakers just because?
Quote
Craig and Mullins visited Masterpiece, a bakery in Lakewood, Colorado, and requested that Phillips design and create a cake to celebrate their same-sex wedding.

If they were trying to buy a package of premade cinnamon buns off the shelf, you might have a point.  This was a request to create, from scratch, with a theme that the artist found offensive.  Your lack of respect for his beliefs in this area is simply hateful.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 11:43:46 pm by Ancient »

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #259 on: September 21, 2017, 11:33:10 pm »
Imagine a world, if you will, ruled by people that think like Jazzhead.  Or.... look back in history.  There are plenty of examples of that thinking....

and how badly it ended.   Hell...just look at Venezuela for the most recent example.

When government controls all the people suffer.... and die.


Religion is not an "accident".   It's rules and morals exist to help people survive.  If you break those rules,  forces beyond our ken will restore the balance.   Societies can bend the rules,  but not forever. 


Eventually nature and reality will reassert control. 
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Offline Ancient

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #260 on: September 21, 2017, 11:35:38 pm »
He is imposing nothing. He is not MAKING the customer buy. That would be imposition. The customer is free to walk out the door and find another shop.
Next up, I'll be imposing my hetrosexuality if I don't makeout with any guy who hits on me...  Sounds ridiculous, except it is scary close to transgender logic that guys who don't don't date "girls" with wieners are bigots.

I don't think "imposing" means what they think it means.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #261 on: September 21, 2017, 11:36:30 pm »
Since your version of the facts don't mesh with reailty as others have pointed out... are you going to now reverse your stance and support the baker?  Or are you just a bigot and arbitrarily condemn bakers just because?

He'll stop posting until his friends at Huffington tell him what to say.  He's in incubation phase right now.  Let's just say he's pupating.  This is his posting pattern, we've seen it before.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #262 on: September 21, 2017, 11:41:54 pm »
Next up, I'll be imposing my hetrosexuality if I don't makeout with any guy who hits on me...  Sounds ridiculous, except it is scary close to transgender logic that guys who don't don't date "girls" with wieners are bigots.

I don't think "imposing" means what they think it means.

That's a fact. More liberal changing of definitions to suit their fancy.
Nice to see you btw, @Ancient ... If that was your handle at FR... I remember a feller by that handle from there.

Offline Ancient

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #263 on: September 21, 2017, 11:48:36 pm »
But if they're in the business of providing goods and services to the general public, they have a legal obligation to leave their religion out of it and not discriminate.
Your belief that workers or business people cannot be Christians while on the job makes as much sense as a good ole boy claiming a female should be a worker, not a female who is offended by sexual harassment.

It is part of them, an innate and protected attribute, and treating them poorly because of that is a text book case of actionable workplace harassment.  Just because it stems from a liberal/approved viewpoint does not provide a blank check to dismiss their objections or their harms.

Offline Ancient

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #264 on: September 21, 2017, 11:49:39 pm »
That's a fact. More liberal changing of definitions to suit their fancy.
Nice to see you btw, @Ancient ... If that was your handle at FR... I remember a feller by that handle from there.
No, I changed my name so I could feel free to actually defend conservative stances rather than assume anything I post will be sent to HR.

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #265 on: September 21, 2017, 11:53:23 pm »
   @Jazzhead I'm getting the feeling here that you don't love us anymore.

No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #266 on: September 21, 2017, 11:56:57 pm »
   @Jazzhead I'm getting the feeling here that you don't love us anymore.



Give him time.  He just needs to have his new talking points fed to him.  Like a baby chick, waiting for David Brock to vomit them into his waiting mouth.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #267 on: September 22, 2017, 03:52:40 am »
Let the bigots feel a bit of pain, I say.

I say a day is coming soon - when tyrants like you that advocate dishing out pain and punishment, and empower the state to do your bidding -  will feel pain in response to the point you'll rue the day you were stupid enough to try and push this shit on the rest of us.

I've not called individual members of this forum bigots and racists. 


« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 03:53:11 am by INVAR »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #268 on: September 22, 2017, 12:01:04 pm »
Since your version of the facts don't mesh with reailty as others have pointed out... are you going to now reverse your stance and support the baker?  Or are you just a bigot and arbitrarily condemn bakers just because?
If they were trying to buy a package of premade cinnamon buns off the shelf, you might have a point.  This was a request to create, from scratch, with a theme that the artist found offensive.  Your lack of respect for his beliefs in this area is simply hateful.

I've stated earlier in this thread the facts of the case, quoting from the briefs filed with the Court.  Please point out how I have misstated the facts.  The baker refused service ab initio,  as soon as he heard the customer was going to use the cake at an event of which he disapproved.   There were no discussions about messages on the cake, or the "artistry" the baker would be forced to employ.   The record shows that he refused service to another customer who merely wanted cupcakes  - cupcakes! - for a "commitment ceremony".   Oh the horror of facing his God and having to explain that, yes, he sold frosted cupcakes to abominable perverts.    *****rollingeyes*****

He may fancy himself as an artist, but I fancy him as a bigot.   What has he done to earn my respect?   What gives him the right to jam his religion down his customers' throats?   If he doesn't want to make wedding cakes, that's his right.  But if he does, then he should serve all his customers on the same basis - that's the law.   That doesn't mean he can't refuse service.   He can refuse to place an offensive message on the cake.  But to reject his customers' request out of hand merely because it's a wedding cake and they're gay?    That's arrogant and illegal.   
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 12:07:03 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #269 on: September 22, 2017, 12:09:20 pm »
Give him time.  He just needs to have his new talking points fed to him.  Like a baby chick, waiting for David Brock to vomit them into his waiting mouth.

Is that your take on how religion works too?   
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #270 on: September 22, 2017, 01:03:29 pm »
Is that your take on how religion works too?

Of all of your BS statements on this thread, that one makes the least sense of all.

You have been repeatedly refuted in the facts, and links demonstrating this have been provided to you.  People are coming to the conclusion you are merely trolling now, so good luck in your future ventures.
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Online Hoodat

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #271 on: September 22, 2017, 01:28:34 pm »
I've stated earlier in this thread the facts of the case, quoting from the briefs filed with the Court.  Please point out how I have misstated the facts. 

Here:

That's the difference between this and the Colorado baker,  who turned away his customer before any request was made regarding the cake itself.


And here:

I'm not "guessing" what the baker was thinking;  I'm reciting the descriptions of his actions in the Brief in Opposition.


And here:

What matters are his actions - in advertising that he makes wedding cakes,  and then unfurling an unwritten "policy" to deny service to gay customers.


And again here:

This has nothing to do with forcing a business to make a product it doesn't want to make.


And here:

The mods banned me the other day for calling a poster a drama queen who had labeled me as bearing the Mark of the Beast.


And here:

That's correct!  And that's why the baker broke the law -  he said he'd provide a product, and then arbitrarily reneged.


And here:

I'd think any Christian would be up in arms at having Jesus' name invoked to defend this man's arbitrary cruelty


And here:

they merely asked for what he advertised to provide.


And here:

The baker had no dialogue with the customer about the cake.


And here:

He simply refused service because the customers were gay.


And here:

The issue at stake is the ability of a business owner to impose his religion on his customers, by refusing to serve those who are black, or gay, or on some other ARBITRARY basis that he "believes" his religion does not approve.


And here:

But if they're in the business of providing goods and services to the general public, they have a legal obligation to leave their religion out of it and not discriminate.


And finally here:

I've not called individual members of this forum bigots and racists.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #272 on: September 22, 2017, 01:32:42 pm »


You have been repeatedly refuted in the facts

How so?  He said he made wedding cakes.  The customer asked for a wedding cake.  He refused, without knowing anything other than his customers were gay.   
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #273 on: September 22, 2017, 01:33:26 pm »
How so?  He said he made wedding cakes.  The customer asked for a wedding cake.  He refused, without knowing anything other than his customers were gay.

You're just making stuff up.  You have no way of knowing this.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: I’m a T-Shirt Maker With Gay Customers and Gay Employees. I Still Was Sued.
« Reply #274 on: September 22, 2017, 01:35:09 pm »
Today's a good day to stop feeding a troll and let him starve.  He isn't even entertaining us with new talking points. 

Good list, @Hoodat .
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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