Author Topic: Replacing the Republican Party  (Read 35256 times)

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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #300 on: August 23, 2017, 02:38:15 pm »
Thanks to the radical Democrat Party today, the chasm is as deep.

Therefore. anyone with a GOP affiliation may claim some level of Conservatism.  And they wouldn't be lying when held up against the opposition.
I can claim to be a Maserati, too, but that doesn't make it so.
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #301 on: August 23, 2017, 02:53:42 pm »
Codevilla is absolutely right; God Bless Him and Abraham Lincoln whom he mentions in the original article. Lincoln and others broke with the Whigs because of their acquiescing to the great immorality of slavery, thus the Republicans were created.

Codevilla only really criticizes the Senate in the article, agree with him, the Senators are ruling us like Democrats, McConnel, McCain, Cruz, all of them except for perhaps a few like Senator Cotton.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 02:54:06 pm by TomSea »

Offline corbe

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #302 on: August 23, 2017, 03:06:56 pm »
   Great thoughts @TomSea until that last sentence, proving once again that the Cruz bug up your butt is bigger than the Trump bug up my butt.   
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Offline Mom MD

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #303 on: August 23, 2017, 03:07:01 pm »
Most Republicans are conservative.  Some, however, are not the peculiar variant known as social conservatives.   There is a tension between social conservatives and those with more libertarian views regarding religious values being promoted by government in the public sphere.   That doesn't mean the GOP coalition is illegitimate or not fundamentally "conservative" in nature.   It is just that - a coalition,  that from time to time needs to compromise and horse-trade to effect legislation.   

Some think they are conservative when they are not.  There are some principles that one cannot compromise and still remain conservative.
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Offline Mom MD

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #304 on: August 23, 2017, 03:09:40 pm »
Like Susan Collins?  She exhibits not one iota of conservatism, yet the Republican party claims her and she claims to be a Republican.

And therein lies the problem
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #305 on: August 23, 2017, 03:18:25 pm »
Like Susan Collins?  She exhibits not one iota of conservatism, yet the Republican party claims her and she claims to be a Republican.

For what  it's worth:

1.   Susan Collins' ACU rating for 2016 was a dismal 23,  but that was still higher than every Democratic Senator other than West Virginia's Manchin (who was a 27)

2.   Susan Collins' lifetime ACU rating is 44.85 -again, far better than anyone with a "D" by their name.

3.  Lisa Murkowski, the other GOP Senator who wouldn't vote for ACA reform because of the brilliant idea of combining it with PP defunding, has a 2016 ACU rating of 54.   She's "conservative" at least half the time.   

I'm also pleased to report that Pat Toomey, who was the only reason I bothered to vote at all in 2016, had a 2016 ACU rating of 96!   :patriot:
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #306 on: August 23, 2017, 03:22:31 pm »
Some think they are conservative when they are not.  There are some principles that one cannot compromise and still remain conservative.

I feel the same way.  But we may not agree what those principles are.  And, as you'd say, therein lies the problem.   

But, you see, the GOP is a coalition of (mostly) conservatives - different flavors of conservative.   We may disagree on the government's role regarding abortion, for example,  but agree on most other things.  Nothing wrong with that - the trick is to gain a majority - at the polls AND in the halls of Congress.   
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #307 on: August 23, 2017, 03:36:39 pm »
I feel the same way.  But we may not agree what those principles are.  And, as you'd say, therein lies the problem.   

But, you see, the GOP is a coalition of (mostly) conservatives - different flavors of conservative.   We may disagree on the government's role regarding abortion, for example,  but agree on most other things.  Nothing wrong with that - the trick is to gain a majority - at the polls AND in the halls of Congress.
That's why Parties have this thing called a "Platform". In that "platform" are "planks", which are the individual policies and positions that the party takes on specific issues which, in aggregate make up the Platform of the party.

Apparently, adherence to the label isn't required. Kinda like buying a Coke and getting Dr. Pepper.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #308 on: August 23, 2017, 03:48:50 pm »
For what  it's worth:

1.   Susan Collins' ACU rating for 2016 was a dismal 23,  but that was still higher than every Democratic Senator other than West Virginia's Manchin (who was a 27)

2.   Susan Collins' lifetime ACU rating is 44.85 -again, far better than anyone with a "D" by their name.

3.  Lisa Murkowski, the other GOP Senator who wouldn't vote for ACA reform because of the brilliant idea of combining it with PP defunding, has a 2016 ACU rating of 54.   She's "conservative" at least half the time.   

I'm also pleased to report that Pat Toomey, who was the only reason I bothered to vote at all in 2016, had a 2016 ACU rating of 96!   :patriot:

Her Liberty Score is 12%.  Heck, she scored lower than Cory Booker, Edward Markey, Lamar Alexander, Bernard Sanders and Elizabeth Warren!

Offline INVAR

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #309 on: August 23, 2017, 04:19:36 pm »
Fundamental principles of liberty; limited government, responsibility, morality - no longer exist or apply in either one of the two major parties, nor the culture that they represent.

The word "Conservative" no longer represents what it once meant - and it is being redefined on two fronts; from within the Republican Party itself - and the label that the media and the Leftists/Marxists continue to fling upon it. 

Everyone laments that the GOP cannot mimic the Democrats' ability to force fealty and march in lockstep to whatever issue and motion their leadership is pushing for.  I lament the fact that most in this country pine for party loyalty and fealty, rather than loyalty and fealty to our foundational documents that were created to protect liberty.  Liberty, that the vast majority of the population and nearly all the political creatures that represent them, want nothing to do with outside of the freedom to do whatever feels good without consequence at someone else's expense.

The fact is limited, small and responsible government is no longer a platform of the Republican Party.  Neither is adherence or respect for the Constitutional limits our Founders placed upon it.  The Republican Party now stands for "better managed" big Government Statism, or European Socialism versus overt Marxism/Communism that the Democrat Party now operates under.   "Conservative" in the Republican party now means being just slightly to the right of Democrats on policy, even if the goal of Statism is the same as long as one wraps themselves up in the flag and attach a flashing light over the big fat "R" they wear next to their name.

It should not be surprising that after the major parties have abandoned the Constitution and the political caste works together to circumvent or ignore it altogether - that the whole people by and large also have followed their lead and abandoned Constitutional principles in favor of getting their slice of pie at the hands of those they send to negotiate robbing the treasury on their behalf.  Two decades ago, the idea of government-run and mandated health insurance and healthcare was anathema to Conservative thought.  Today - the argument is over how it must be managed and regulated rather than eschew the very idea of it.

So now the talk is the need to enforce fealty to party, fealty to the President, rather than fealty to the oaths the representatives in those parties swear allegiance to.

I'm not interested in building coalitions with the wicked to adopt more Liberal Socialism to get an empty promise of rolling back the iron fist of the state by electing more liberal Democrats to power in the party with a big fat R.   I'm interested in separating from them.  The consequences both parties have sown - is a bitter harvest we have yet to truly reap.  I do not want to be anywhere near them when that unravelling begins.

Yes, I completely recognize that my view is in a woeful and tiny minority.  It's an indictment of the whole corrupted system and the people that wallow in the slime they happily coat themselves with because they do not want liberty.  They want security and the illusion of peace, safety and provision, at the expense of others.   I'm happy to be the only guy in the mob, not saluting, because my fealty is not to what the mob salutes.  My fealty is to what the mob has rejected and replaced.
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...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online libertybele

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #310 on: August 23, 2017, 04:50:55 pm »
   Great thoughts @TomSea until that last sentence, proving once again that the Cruz bug up your butt is bigger than the Trump bug up my butt.

  888high58888  Now that there is just plain funny!!   :silly:
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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #311 on: August 23, 2017, 05:01:12 pm »
Her Liberty Score is 12%.  Heck, she scored lower than Cory Booker, Edward Markey, Lamar Alexander, Bernard Sanders and Elizabeth Warren!

As far as I'm concerned, this "big tent" thing in the republican party has gotten WAY out of hand to the point that I personally don't have anything to do with that party!
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #312 on: August 23, 2017, 05:05:53 pm »
   Great thoughts @TomSea until that last sentence, proving once again that the Cruz bug up your butt is bigger than the Trump bug up my butt.

Cruz is Kryptonite to some Trump lovers.  Not sure why because Trump was far more hateful to Cruz than vice versa.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #313 on: August 23, 2017, 05:08:33 pm »
Some think they are conservative when they are not.  There are some principles that one cannot compromise and still remain conservative.

GOP is far more of a Big Tent party than the Dems.  A lot of fiscal conservatives wish the Pubs would put less emphasis on social issues and I'm among that faction, except when it comes to being Pro-Life.
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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #314 on: August 23, 2017, 05:22:07 pm »
For what  it's worth:

1.   Susan Collins' ACU rating for 2016 was a dismal 23,  but that was still higher than every Democratic Senator other than West Virginia's Manchin (who was a 27)

2.   Susan Collins' lifetime ACU rating is 44.85 -again, far better than anyone with a "D" by their name.

3.  Lisa Murkowski, the other GOP Senator who wouldn't vote for ACA reform because of the brilliant idea of combining it with PP defunding, has a 2016 ACU rating of 54.   She's "conservative" at least half the time.   

I'm also pleased to report that Pat Toomey, who was the only reason I bothered to vote at all in 2016, had a 2016 ACU rating of 96!   :patriot:


It's pretty sad that one must show a Republican Senator in stark contrast to Democrats to be able top say anything positive about them.  That said, you get kudos for Toomy, he's a good one.  I like him better than I did Santorum.
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Online libertybele

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #315 on: August 23, 2017, 05:55:49 pm »
Fundamental principles of liberty; limited government, responsibility, morality - no longer exist or apply in either one of the two major parties, nor the culture that they represent.

The word "Conservative" no longer represents what it once meant - and it is being redefined on two fronts; from within the Republican Party itself - and the label that the media and the Leftists/Marxists continue to fling upon it. 

Everyone laments that the GOP cannot mimic the Democrats' ability to force fealty and march in lockstep to whatever issue and motion their leadership is pushing for.  I lament the fact that most in this country pine for party loyalty and fealty, rather than loyalty and fealty to our foundational documents that were created to protect liberty.  Liberty, that the vast majority of the population and nearly all the political creatures that represent them, want nothing to do with outside of the freedom to do whatever feels good without consequence at someone else's expense.

The fact is limited, small and responsible government is no longer a platform of the Republican Party.  Neither is adherence or respect for the Constitutional limits our Founders placed upon it.  The Republican Party now stands for "better managed" big Government Statism, or European Socialism versus overt Marxism/Communism that the Democrat Party now operates under.   "Conservative" in the Republican party now means being just slightly to the right of Democrats on policy, even if the goal of Statism is the same as long as one wraps themselves up in the flag and attach a flashing light over the big fat "R" they wear next to their name.

It should not be surprising that after the major parties have abandoned the Constitution and the political caste works together to circumvent or ignore it altogether - that the whole people by and large also have followed their lead and abandoned Constitutional principles in favor of getting their slice of pie at the hands of those they send to negotiate robbing the treasury on their behalf.  Two decades ago, the idea of government-run and mandated health insurance and healthcare was anathema to Conservative thought.  Today - the argument is over how it must be managed and regulated rather than eschew the very idea of it.

So now the talk is the need to enforce fealty to party, fealty to the President, rather than fealty to the oaths the representatives in those parties swear allegiance to.

I'm not interested in building coalitions with the wicked to adopt more Liberal Socialism to get an empty promise of rolling back the iron fist of the state by electing more liberal Democrats to power in the party with a big fat R.   I'm interested in separating from them.  The consequences both parties have sown - is a bitter harvest we have yet to truly reap.  I do not want to be anywhere near them when that unravelling begins.

Yes, I completely recognize that my view is in a woeful and tiny minority.  It's an indictment of the whole corrupted system and the people that wallow in the slime they happily coat themselves with because they do not want liberty.  They want security and the illusion of peace, safety and provision, at the expense of others.   I'm happy to be the only guy in the mob, not saluting, because my fealty is not to what the mob salutes.  My fealty is to what the mob has rejected and replaced.

I believe conservatism is still clearly demonstrated and defined by a select few in Congress however you are 100% correct, the very definition of what a Republican is has been lost and yes, many claim to be a Republican by taking a minuscule step to the right of the liberal mental midgets. Agreed the whole system is corrupt, but we certainly aren't going to fix things from the top down, but rather from the bottom up, though the amount of corruption may even prohibit that.  Certainly I am not advocating anyone giving up their principles for party; quite the opposite. Yes, I would love to see such upheaval in the GOP that either a shift to the Constitution party is made by true conservatives or a completely new conservative party emerges.  Until that happens, I will continue to support those that I feel are worthy of my support.  I stopped supporting the GOP party a long, long time ago.
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Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #316 on: August 23, 2017, 05:57:43 pm »
Cruz is Kryptonite to some Trump lovers.  Not sure why because Trump was far more hateful to Cruz than vice versa.

You know @Emjay  that "Trump lovers" shit is really getting old.  "Trump supporters" would be appropriate --- unless you're actually trying to carry the anger from the primaries through eternity --- and I've come to know you're better than this.

Having said that, I'll take a shot about Cruz. First, Cruz isn't kryptonite to anyone or anything.  So, let's get that out of the way. 

For most Trump supporters, Cruz was not an issue during the primaries, and neither was Bush, Rubio, Kasich, et al.  This was as any other primary season, a time to choose a favorite son (or daughter). There were bruises from some fierce battles in support of the top two candidates.  As it turned out, Trump was the passionate street fighter while Cruz kept misfiring, badly. 

Cruz, all by himself, made enemies out of frenemies at the convention with his refusal to support the candidate and his "vote your conscience" BS.  I know many folks who are still reeling from that ... and who now believe "Lyin' Ted" was more than a sharpened political club.  They firmly believe it is true; not because of any political rhetoric coming from Trump, but because of the tantrum Cruz chose to throw---in public, when it mattered most.

But he did come around toward the end of the national campaign (as his big donors demanded) and the bruises were healing.  That healing would be complete by now if NTs would stop using Ted Cruz's spectacular loss against Trump, his victory and his supporters.

We're ready, willing and able to reengage with Cruz .... all the NTs need to do is get the hell out of the way.

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #317 on: August 23, 2017, 05:59:32 pm »
You know @Emjay  that "Trump lovers" shit is really getting old.  "Trump supporters" would be appropriate --- unless you're actually trying to carry the anger from the primaries through eternity --- and I've come to know you're better than this.

Having said that, I'll take a shot about Cruz. First, Cruz isn't kryptonite to anyone or anything.  So, let's get that out of the way. 

For most Trump supporters, Cruz was not an issue during the primaries, and neither was Bush, Rubio, Kasich, et al.  This was as any other primary season, a time to choose a favorite son (or daughter). There were bruises from some fierce battles in support of the top two candidates.  As it turned out, Trump was the passionate street fighter while Cruz kept misfiring, badly. 

Cruz, all by himself, made enemies out of frenemies at the convention with his refusal to support the candidate and his "vote your conscience" BS.  I know many folks who are still reeling from that ... and who now believe "Lyin' Ted" was more than a sharpened political club.  They firmly believe it is true; not because of any political rhetoric coming from Trump, but because of the tantrum Cruz chose to throw---in public, when it mattered most.

But he did come around toward the end of the national campaign (as his big donors demanded) and the bruises were healing.  That healing would be complete by now if NTs would stop using Ted Cruz's spectacular loss against Trump, his victory and his supporters.

We're ready, willing and able to reengage with Cruz .... all the NTs need to do is get the hell out of the way.

 Nope.  "Trump lovers" captures the zeitgeist of what is in reality a cult of personality. 

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #318 on: August 23, 2017, 06:00:57 pm »
GOP is far more of a Big Tent party than the Dems.  A lot of fiscal conservatives wish the Pubs would put less emphasis on social issues and I'm among that faction, except when it comes to being Pro-Life.
If you are not a social conservative, then you cannot claim to be a conservative at all.
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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #319 on: August 23, 2017, 06:01:30 pm »
If you are not a social conservative, then you cannot claim to be a conservative at all.

Baloney

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #320 on: August 23, 2017, 06:01:55 pm »
You know @Emjay  that "Trump lovers" shit is really getting old.  "Trump supporters" would be appropriate --- unless you're actually trying to carry the anger from the primaries through eternity --- and I've come to know you're better than this.

Having said that, I'll take a shot about Cruz. First, Cruz isn't kryptonite to anyone or anything.  So, let's get that out of the way. 

For most Trump supporters, Cruz was not an issue during the primaries, and neither was Bush, Rubio, Kasich, et al.  This was as any other primary season, a time to choose a favorite son (or daughter). There were bruises from some fierce battles in support of the top two candidates.  As it turned out, Trump was the passionate street fighter while Cruz kept misfiring, badly. 

Cruz, all by himself, made enemies out of frenemies at the convention with his refusal to support the candidate and his "vote your conscience" BS.  I know many folks who are still reeling from that ... and who now believe "Lyin' Ted" was more than a sharpened political club.  They firmly believe it is true; not because of any political rhetoric coming from Trump, but because of the tantrum Cruz chose to throw---in public, when it mattered most.

But he did come around toward the end of the national campaign (as his big donors demanded) and the bruises were healing.  That healing would be complete by now if NTs would stop using Ted Cruz's spectacular loss against Trump, his victory and his supporters.

We're ready, willing and able to reengage with Cruz .... all the NTs need to do is get the hell out of the way.

You are aware that @Emjay supports Trump, are you not?  Weird attack. 

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #321 on: August 23, 2017, 06:03:23 pm »
You are aware that @Emjay supports Trump, are you not?  Weird attack.

Good cop, bad cop.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #322 on: August 23, 2017, 06:04:50 pm »
Good cop, bad cop.

I think it was bad, bad cop.   *****rollingeyes*****

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #323 on: August 23, 2017, 06:06:02 pm »
I think it was bad, bad cop.   *****rollingeyes*****

I didn't want to be accused of being nasty again.  :laugh:

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Replacing the Republican Party
« Reply #324 on: August 23, 2017, 06:07:15 pm »
Yes, I would love to see such upheaval in the GOP that either a shift to the Constitution party is made by true conservatives or a completely new conservative party emerges.  Until that happens, I will continue to support those that I feel are worthy of my support.  I stopped supporting the GOP party a long, long time ago.

Why do you ignore the possibility for change within the GOP?   Running to a third party is a surefire recipe for conservatives to be marginalized.   Conservatives need the coalition represented by the GOP to obtain and retain political power and influence.  INVAR is only interested in political masturbation, not political power and influence.   Follow self-absorbed folks like him at your own peril. 

And recent history shows two recent profound changes within the GOP, both of which have expanded its influence and reach - the TEA party revolution and the Trump revolution.   Yes, these upheavals have spurred a lot of tension and infighting (because the GOP doesn't censor differences like the Dems do) but the bottom line is that conservatives are more influential today than at any time since Reagan - and more so at the state level.   

The GOP isn't dying and doesn't need to be replaced.   But if the political masturbators want to go elsewhere, I say let 'em go and leave the rest of us do the hard work needed to win elections and effect sound legislation.   

 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 06:08:07 pm by Jazzhead »
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