Author Topic: GLOCK VICE PRESIDENT: “Continue MHS, Don’t Settle for SIG” – Glock Asks Army to Keep Testing Pistols  (Read 6110 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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@txradioguy  Ok,but  that doesn't make the 1911 complex unless you have a different understanding of the definition "field strip" than I do.

Maybe it's as much a generational thing as anything else?

It is...you have to really simplify things that would be second nature to any soldier above a certain age where weapons are concerned.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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MARSOC has continued to use the .45 ACP...in fact Colt even came out with a new model of the 1911 for them because the armorers at Quantico were running out of issue .45's to cannibalize to keep the 1911 A1's functioning.

Maybe one way to think of it is that the 1911A1 is a tougher weapon to master.  For SpecOps that have much higher ammunition allocations and can fire their weapons much more often, it's great.  But for the majority who only get to fire their pistol rarely, it is much easier to become proficient with a Beretta or other 9mm.

Offline Just_Victor

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@Just_Victor

Huh? How hard is it to pull a slide off,remove the barrel,and then put it back on? People were doing this while blindfolded for about 60 years.  It's really not very complicated.

It was like 8 or 10 steps to release the slider.  And putting it back together was an exercise pricision alignment of the barrel's rotating mechanism and the locking pin.  I can't imagine trying to do it in the dark.  Even in bright light I wasn't certain I put it back together right.
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Offline sneakypete

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@sneakypete

Quote
The way it was explained to me way back in U.S. Weapons at Ft. Sill was that it was done for uniformity with the rest of the NATO that was using 9mm...same with 5.56 and the M16.

The other reason that was explained to me was that you could hump more of the lighter and smaller 9mm and 5.56 than you could 45 ACP and 7.62.

In addition the brainiacs at the Pentagon determined that you could take out 2-3 people by shooting one with ammo that wounded instead of killed a soldier immediately.  Shoot one WARSAW Pact soldier and one or two will stop to render first aid...voila you've taken three combatants off the field of battle.

@txradioguy

I was told the same thing in 64. The only difference was the added info of  a study done (supposedly) that most soldiers didn't hit anything when firing in combat unless it was by accident because they wouldn't expose themselves to enemy fire,so the military thinking was to give these guys more ammunition at the same weight and they would have more to shoot downrange and accidentally hit an enemy soldier. I didn't believe that at first,but later would see literally thousands of rounds fired to kill or injure maybe a half-dozen enemy soldiers. Look at newsreels of soldiers fighting in  VN,and in just about every one of them you see most of the soldiers firing while ducked down behind something,and holding the rifle above their heads and firing them.

When you look at it that way,and then add that the .223 is entirely capable of giving an enemy soldier a long dirt nap if fired by someone aiming,and it all makes sense.


Quote
It's obvious from dealing with the Jihadis and the results of close combat like Operation Mountain Lion in Afghanistan that those brainiacs never factored in dealing with people that just don't give a crap if the guy next to them is shot.

Oh,I think it is worse than that. I think they look forward to being killed so they go to paradise and  have sex with beautiful virgins,instead of having to go back home to whatever Shitstainastan that gave birth to them,and hump goats.

Quote
MARSOC has continued to use the .45 ACP...in fact Colt even came out with a new model of the 1911 for them because the armorers at Quantico were running out of issue .45's to cannibalize to keep the 1911 A1's functioning.

Thanks,I didn't know that. I did know the Delta guys were mostly carrying one version or another of a 1911A1 when they deployed,but they didn't bother to rebuild worn out junk. They would just buy new ones from Para Ordinance or some other supplier.  I have one of these laying around here somewhere,myself. Bought it because I just happened to have the money on me one day when I spotted one at a good price,but my normal "go to town" carry piece is my old 70's series Combat Commander that I personally rebuild and customized. It's a old friend I trust completely.
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Offline txradioguy

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@txradioguy

I was told the same thing in 64. The only difference was the added info of  a study done (supposedly) that most soldiers didn't hit anything when firing in combat unless it was by accident because they wouldn't expose themselves to enemy fire,so the military thinking was to give these guys more ammunition at the same weight and they would have more to shoot downrange and accidentally hit an enemy soldier. I didn't believe that at first,but later would see literally thousands of rounds fired to kill or injure maybe a half-dozen enemy soldiers. Look at newsreels of soldiers fighting in  VN,and in just about every one of them you see most of the soldiers firing while ducked down behind something,and holding the rifle above their heads and firing them.

When you look at it that way,and then add that the .223 is entirely capable of giving an enemy soldier a long dirt nap if fired by someone aiming,and it all makes sense.


Oh,I think it is worse than that. I think they look forward to being killed so they go to paradise and  have sex with beautiful virgins,instead of having to go back home to whatever Shitstainastan that gave birth to them,and hump goats.

Thanks,I didn't know that. I did know the Delta guys were mostly carrying one version or another of a 1911A1 when they deployed,but they didn't bother to rebuild worn out junk. They would just buy new ones from Para Ordinance or some other supplier.  I have one of these laying around here somewhere,myself. Bought it because I just happened to have the money on me one day when I spotted one at a good price,but my normal "go to town" carry piece is my old 70's series Combat Commander that I personally rebuild and customized. It's a old friend I trust completely.

Here's what Colt designed for the Marine Special Operators...there is a civilian model out now as well and very hard to find.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/semper-fi-colt-m45a1-cqbp-marine-pistol-review/
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Offline skeeter

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It was like 8 or 10 steps to release the slider.  And putting it back together was an exercise pricision alignment of the barrel's rotating mechanism and the locking pin.  I can't imagine trying to do it in the dark.  Even in bright light I wasn't certain I put it back together right.

My favorite part is trying to hold the spring down (with a flat bladed screwdriver, usually) while holding the gun with one hand, and rotating the locking cam with the other.

I usually throw a towel over the whole process just in case things go south.

Offline sneakypete

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Here's what Colt designed for the Marine Special Operators...there is a civilian model out now as well and very hard to find.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/semper-fi-colt-m45a1-cqbp-marine-pistol-review/

@txradioguy

Be still my beating heart!
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Here's what Colt designed for the Marine Special Operators...there is a civilian model out now as well and very hard to find.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/semper-fi-colt-m45a1-cqbp-marine-pistol-review/

I wouldn't have complained if they'd issued me one of those.

Offline txradioguy

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Maybe one way to think of it is that the 1911A1 is a tougher weapon to master.  For SpecOps that have much higher ammunition allocations and can fire their weapons much more often, it's great.  But for the majority who only get to fire their pistol rarely, it is much easier to become proficient with a Beretta or other 9mm.

I've only been able to qualify one time with a Beretta...most times I have a hard time hitting the broadside of a barn from the inside with one.

I'm deadly accurate with my .45...some of that may be more range time with that particular platform...but to me the 1911 is just a much more accurate gun out of the box.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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@txradioguy

Be still my beating heart!

I know right!  It is a beautiful piece of steel that I wish I could afford.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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I wouldn't have complained if they'd issued me one of those.

Same here.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline sneakypete

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Maybe one way to think of it is that the 1911A1 is a tougher weapon to master.  For SpecOps that have much higher ammunition allocations and can fire their weapons much more often, it's great.  But for the majority who only get to fire their pistol rarely, it is much easier to become proficient with a Beretta or other 9mm.

@Maj. Bill Martin

Excellent observation,and one I hadn't really considered.

I don't know much about the regular army other than what I have been told,and even that is decades old data now.

When I was wearing the uniform,the only people I heard of being issued sidearms in the non-combat arms branches of the regular army were the officers,and the first sgt. Truthfully,these people needed a handgun like they needed a saxaphone. More of a "Badge of office" than anything else.

Then came the second tier,not REALLY combat arms people,but so close at times it was hard to tell the difference. People like MP's,couriers,tankers,redlegs,and even truck drivers. They not only had a legitimate need for a handgun (awful hard to carry a rifle while running with 105 rounds or mortar rounds),but due to the nature of their jobs it was often the only firearm they might have at hand in an emergency. I have no idea how often they got to the range to shoot or how much ammo each was allocated each year for qualifications,but I sense the correct answer is "Not enough".

Then come the infantry folks and the special operations people. From what I saw from the 82nd Abn Div those times I was stationed at Bragg,they did a hell of a lot of training,but it was all done firing blanks. I do understand the dangers of large groups of people firing live ammo in the same area at the same time,but I still got a sense that the correct number of live rounds they got to pop off each year for training purposes was "not enough".

Special operations folks generally got all they wanted and had time to train with,and were told to come back if they needed more. I don't think I ever heard the word "no" when walking into an arms room and asking for anything from a case of grenades to a mortar or a silenced (suppressed,these days) weapon. If if it was anything other than "Is that all  you need today?",it was "We don't have/out of stock on that,but I will have it for you tomorrow."

Which,IMHO,is how it should have worked with the conventional rifle companies. The Company Commander and First Shirts in these companies have a very good understanding of deployment probabilities and requirements,and those are the people,along with their battalion commanders who need to establish how much of what they get to send downrange,and how often they need to do it.  Not some geek in Division Command bookkeeping.
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Offline endicom

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When I was wearing the uniform,the only people I heard of being issued sidearms in the non-combat arms branches of the regular army were the officers,and the first sgt. Truthfully,these people needed a handgun like they needed a saxaphone. More of a "Badge of office" than anything else.


I was issued one because I was issued the M-79. Combat engineer.

Offline Bigun

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Here's a good article by a qualified person on number of rounds fired per enemy KIA in Vietnam.   

https://www.quora.com/How-many-bullets-shells-in-a-war-actually-hit-the-enemy

I left the theater in November 67 and prior to that it wasn't this way but I don't doubt the authors figures for the overall picture one bit.
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Offline Bigun

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@Maj. Bill Martin

Excellent observation,and one I hadn't really considered.

I don't know much about the regular army other than what I have been told,and even that is decades old data now.

When I was wearing the uniform,the only people I heard of being issued sidearms in the non-combat arms branches of the regular army were the officers,and the first sgt. Truthfully,these people needed a handgun like they needed a saxaphone. More of a "Badge of office" than anything else.

Then came the second tier,not REALLY combat arms people,but so close at times it was hard to tell the difference. People like MP's,couriers,tankers,redlegs,and even truck drivers. They not only had a legitimate need for a handgun (awful hard to carry a rifle while running with 105 rounds or mortar rounds),but due to the nature of their jobs it was often the only firearm they might have at hand in an emergency. I have no idea how often they got to the range to shoot or how much ammo each was allocated each year for qualifications,but I sense the correct answer is "Not enough".

Then come the infantry folks and the special operations people. From what I saw from the 82nd Abn Div those times I was stationed at Bragg,they did a hell of a lot of training,but it was all done firing blanks. I do understand the dangers of large groups of people firing live ammo in the same area at the same time,but I still got a sense that the correct number of live rounds they got to pop off each year for training purposes was "not enough".

Special operations folks generally got all they wanted and had time to train with,and were told to come back if they needed more. I don't think I ever heard the word "no" when walking into an arms room and asking for anything from a case of grenades to a mortar or a silenced (suppressed,these days) weapon. If if it was anything other than "Is that all  you need today?",it was "We don't have/out of stock on that,but I will have it for you tomorrow."

Which,IMHO,is how it should have worked with the conventional rifle companies. The Company Commander and First Shirts in these companies have a very good understanding of deployment probabilities and requirements,and those are the people,along with their battalion commanders who need to establish how much of what they get to send downrange,and how often they need to do it.  Not some geek in Division Command bookkeeping.

Back in the day, OD's, Battalion and Unit CQ's were routinely issued side arms for the periods they were on duty.  That obviously is NOT the case now days.
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Offline austingirl

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I'm currently a sub-contractor on a large Air Force contract.    We originally started working on the RFP in 2007.   The proposals were submitted in 2008.   It was finally awarded in Jan of 2015 but was then protested (same thing Glock is doing) and the final award was in Nov 2016.  We still dont have any billable work out of it as the primes are holding onto everything.

Protesting the award is very common and every single large government contractor does it.  There is plenty of graft in the process but its not usually in the form of direct cash payments.   The company has to pay lobbyists, the cheap ones are $5k to $6k per month.   They in turn woo the govt people who at the end of the day will choose the easiest route so they can get back to cruising the internet.

A nice example of how corrupt and unwieldly the federal government is!
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Offline sneakypete

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I was issued one because I was issued the M-79. Combat engineer.

@endicom

Wasn't that considered to be a combat arms branch?  I know that on some road trips engineers were given an infantry unit for security so the engineers would be free to do the actual work needing to be done,but didn't most engineer units also have some 11B types assigned to them on a pretty regular basis?

Or was it MP's assigned to you while doing road/bridge work?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 11:25:20 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline txradioguy

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@endicom

Wasn't that considered to be a combat arms branch?  I know that on some road trips engineers were given an infantry unit for security so the engineers would be free to do the actual work needing to be done,but didn't most engineer units also have some 11B types assigned to them on a pretty regular basis?

Or was it MP's assigned to you while doing road/bridge work?

I've known a couple of Vietnam Era 12 Bravos (Combat Engineer) that were awarded the CIB.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline endicom

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@endicom

Wasn't that considered to be a combat arms branch?  I know that on some road trips engineers were given an infantry unit for security so the engineers would be free to do the actual work needing to be done,but didn't most engineer units also have some 11B types assigned to them on a pretty regular basis?

Or was it MP's assigned to you while doing road/bridge work?


The only people assigned to us were construction engineers when needed. But I was just where I was and for just a year, so...

We, my company, spent a month in a place we called Vanh Canh (there are other spellings) upgrading an airfield. We set up next to a compound of an SF group and what was said to be a battalion of ARVN. When we finished and returned to base we were informed by our CO that we had actually been, in so many words, bait. They knew that small groups of NVA had filtered down from the north and we were to give them a reason to come together for an attack. I suppose that then the 1st Cav, to which we were attached, were to come charging over the hills to blow us all away with their helo gunships.   

An SF sergeant had a picture showing some of the membrane airfield we'd laid down from maybe a few months after we'd left. He mentioned mortar attacks on the airfield but there were none while I was there. His online stuff is for some reason gone.

Offline endicom

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I've known a couple of Vietnam Era 12 Bravos (Combat Engineer) that were awarded the CIB.


Yeah, my understanding is that the CIB can go to other than infantry but I'd have to search out the criteria for that.

Back in the States, I had a CO who'd gotten a field commission in Vietnam. Pretty good for a combat engineer.

Offline txradioguy

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Yeah, my understanding is that the CIB can go to other than infantry but I'd have to search out the criteria for that.

Back in the States, I had a CO who'd gotten a field commission in Vietnam. Pretty good for a combat engineer.

IIRC they stopped awarding the CIB to non 11 series after Vietnam.

However...

The EIB competition is still open to any MOS that wants to submit someone to the roster for the yearly evaluation.

I've known a couple MP's and one Pac Clerk who had their EIB stitched to the underside of their left bresst pocket of their BDU/ACU/Muiti Cam uniform.
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Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline endicom

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Since we're about a galaxy off topic as is, here's something I saw with the 1st Cav that no one knew anything about: http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/zgren.html

A three-round M79 that didn't cut the mustard.



Offline GtHawk

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My favorite part is trying to hold the spring down (with a flat bladed screwdriver, usually) while holding the gun with one hand, and rotating the locking cam with the other.

I usually throw a towel over the whole process just in case things go south.
Thank Goodness I have a Hi-Power, Browning sure simplified that strip down!

Offline skeeter

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Thank Goodness I have a Hi-Power, Browning sure simplified that strip down!

That would be my next purchase...

Offline Fantom

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You mean like the M-16, M-4?

Fairly certain operative parts of those guns are metal.

Anyways...I vote 1911... after all... how many rounds of 45 does one need.
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