Author Topic: GLOCK VICE PRESIDENT: “Continue MHS, Don’t Settle for SIG” – Glock Asks Army to Keep Testing Pistols  (Read 6113 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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Glock isn’t done yet: Despite being passed over by the Army and having their protest of the MHS contract rejected by the GAO, Glock is still hoping for a chance. In a recent interview with Matthew Cox of Military.com, Glock Vice President Josh Dorsey spoke out against the Army’s decision to adopt the SIG Sauer P320 as the new M17 Modular Handgun System. Dorsey’s comments, excerpted below, express dissatisfaction with the Army’s selection process:

Quote
““This is not about Glock. This is not about Sig. And it’s not about the U.S. Army,” Dorsey, a retired Marine, told Military.com. “It’s about those that are on the ground, in harm’s way.”

It comes down to “the importance of a pistol, which doesn’t sound like much unless you realize, if you pull a pistol in combat, you are in deep s***.”



“So one of the least important factors as they said in the RFP would be the price; that is what became the most important factor,” Dorsey said.

“So let’s think about that for a minute … you are going to go forward making that decision now without completing the test on the two candidate systems that are in the competitive range? Does that make sense if it’s your son or daughter sitting in that foxhole somewhere?””

Ultimately, the question of whether SIG Sauer’s P320 handgun will meet Army requirements seems, at the moment, moot. In the face of a 13-year-long procurement process, a suite of already mature competitors, and a $100 million dollar price difference between the bids of the two companies, Glock’s argument for a continuing competition seems thin. There certainly is an argument that Glock’s offering was indeed superior, especially given that Glock was evidently able to satisfy both full-size and compact requirements with a single configuration. However, this must be weighed against the consequence of more time, effort, and money spent to procure a weapon that may not be substantially better than the one already selected. If the Army has made a truly grievous error in procurement, or if there was foul play, then certainly the results of MHS should be re-examined. If, on the other hand, the US Army selected the best deal out of several satisfactory pistol offerings, then re-opening the competition seems unnecessary.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/07/05/glock-vice-president-continue-mhs-dont-settle-sig-glock-asks-army-keep-testing-pistols/
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Offline txradioguy

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Sounds like a case of poor loser on Glock's part.
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Offline Just_Victor

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Sounds like a case of poor loser on Glock's part.

I've shot a Glock 17.  I own and carry a Sig P229.  My choice of weapon was based on the Sig being a superior firearm in every respect.
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Offline ABX

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Who wouldn't want a plastic gun in combat?

Offline driftdiver

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Who wouldn't want a plastic gun in combat?

You mean like the M-16, M-4?
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Offline skeeter

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I've shot a Glock 17.  I own and carry a Sig P229.  My choice of weapon was based on the Sig being a superior firearm in every respect.

I have a 2022 but as much as I like it I gotta admit, I'm a better shot with the Glock. I think its because the barrel sits lower.

Offline driftdiver

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Sounds like a case of poor loser on Glock's part.

Its quite common in the federal procurement space.  Put enough pressure on the contracting office and you might get things changed.  It happens all the time. 

I have two sigs (220 & 226) and a glock (m30).    Both the 220 and m30 are highly accurate and I would trust either.  I've had fewer malfunctions with the glock and have noticed it is less prone to rust in the hot humid Florida environment.

The 226 is a quandary, out of the box it isn't accurate at all.  With the 220 or m30 I can put 5 shots in a quarter sized space at 15 yards.  With the 226 I'm lucky to hit paper.  I've called sig and taken it to a gunsmith and they say its fine although they didn't put much effort into it.   
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Offline Bigun

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I have owned several Glocks over the years but now own none. I do own three Sigs.

Glock is just doing the crybaby thing because they lost.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline driftdiver

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I have owned several Glocks over the years but now own none. I do own three Sigs.

Glock is just doing the crybaby thing because they lost.

Glock probably spent several hundred thousand dollars on their proposal and this is a huge piece of business for years to come.   Why wouldn't they fight for it?
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Offline Bigun

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Glock probably spent several hundred thousand dollars on their proposal and this is a huge piece of business for years to come.   Why wouldn't they fight for it?

I understand what they are doing and don't blame them for doing it.  If they can find the right person to pay off it MIGHT change something.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline driftdiver

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I understand what they are doing and don't blame them for doing it.  If they can find the right person to pay off it MIGHT change something.

I'm currently a sub-contractor on a large Air Force contract.    We originally started working on the RFP in 2007.   The proposals were submitted in 2008.   It was finally awarded in Jan of 2015 but was then protested (same thing Glock is doing) and the final award was in Nov 2016.  We still dont have any billable work out of it as the primes are holding onto everything.

Protesting the award is very common and every single large government contractor does it.  There is plenty of graft in the process but its not usually in the form of direct cash payments.   The company has to pay lobbyists, the cheap ones are $5k to $6k per month.   They in turn woo the govt people who at the end of the day will choose the easiest route so they can get back to cruising the internet.
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Offline sneakypete

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I still don't understand why they replaced the 1911A1.

Well,yeah,I do. Promises were made, bribes were paid,votes were promised,and the deal was done.
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Offline Bigun

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I'm currently a sub-contractor on a large Air Force contract.    We originally started working on the RFP in 2007.   The proposals were submitted in 2008.   It was finally awarded in Jan of 2015 but was then protested (same thing Glock is doing) and the final award was in Nov 2016.  We still dont have any billable work out of it as the primes are holding onto everything.

Protesting the award is very common and every single large government contractor does it.  There is plenty of graft in the process but its not usually in the form of direct cash payments.   The company has to pay lobbyists, the cheap ones are $5k to $6k per month.   They in turn woo the govt people who at the end of the day will choose the easiest route so they can get back to cruising the internet.

Of course the payoff mechanisms are far more sophisticated than I intonated in the post you responded to but the basics are correct.

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline driftdiver

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Of course the payoff mechanisms are far more sophisticated than I intonated in the post you responded to but the basics are correct.

Yeah, sorry some folks just don't know how complex the system is.  For each rule there are ways around them and the average person doesn't have a chance.

The only answer is to shrink the govt.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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I still don't understand why they replaced the 1911A1.

No weapon choice is going to please everyone because personal tastes/preferences/hand sizes, etc. are different.  I greatly preferred the Berettas to the 1911A1's.  Went from earning a pizza box annually to getting my expert badge.  I know that plenty of people tinker with 1911's to make them more accurate/more ergonomic, but that option really doesn't exist for most people who are issued a stock weapon.

FWIW, the majority of the officers with whom I served in the 80's and 90's preferred the 92SF to the 1911a1 as well.  Certainly not unanimous, but definitely a majority.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 05:05:39 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Just_Victor

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I still don't understand why they replaced the 1911A1.

Well,yeah,I do. Promises were made, bribes were paid,votes were promised,and the deal was done.

I had to learn to field strip my Father-in-Law's M1911 a year or so ago.  Modern weapons come apart and go back together MUCH easier.   My Sig strips and cleans in two simple steps, the 1911 is a pain in the @$$.

Some updates are a good thing.

If all I want is a warm feeling, I should just wet my pants.

Offline skeeter

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I had to learn to field strip my Father-in-Law's M1911 a year or so ago.  Modern weapons come apart and go back together MUCH easier.   My Sig strips and cleans in two simple steps, the 1911 is a pain in the @$$.

Some updates are a good thing.

I second that - cleaning the Sig is quick and easy, on the other hand me cleaning my 1911 A1 is high comedy.

Offline txradioguy

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Glock probably spent several hundred thousand dollars on their proposal and this is a huge piece of business for years to come.   Why wouldn't they fight for it?

They also partially had their foot into the DoD door...in the last few years the SEALS had taken to using the Glock 19 instead of the M9.
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Offline txradioguy

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I second that - cleaning the Sig is quick and easy, on the other hand me cleaning my 1911 A1 is high comedy.

I'll third that.  Field stripping a P320/M17 is almost soldier proof.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline sneakypete

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No weapon choice is going to please everyone because personal tastes/preferences/hand sizes, etc. are different.  I greatly preferred the Berettas to the 1911A1's.  Went from earning a pizza box annually to getting my expert badge.  I know that plenty of people tinker with 1911's to make them more accurate/more ergonomic, but that option really doesn't exist for most people who are issued a stock weapon.

FWIW, the majority of the officers with whom I served in the 80's and 90's preferred the 92SF to the 1911a1 as well.  Certainly not unanimous, but definitely a majority.

@Maj. Bill Martin

Well,the sad,sad truth is most people in the US Military have no respect for handguns for anything other than as a badge of office or a paperweight.  LOTS of issue 45's were kept in inventory long after they should have been rebuilt or scrapped,but the truth is even those clapped-out pistols that would rattle when you shook them were accurate enough for most legitimate purposes,namely keeping a bad guy off your back until you could grab up his rifle after killing him at close range.

In some units,like SF (infantry),and I am guessing armor,artillery, and MP units,I suspect the company armorers did a lot more rebuilding than was done in support units.

IMHO,the worse drawback to the 1911A1 was the army regulation that demanded you carry one in the issue full-flap holster with an empty chamber.  As usual with large organizations,the rules were written by people with no experience in the field,and their eyes firmly on annual safety reports,where the CO's career is more important than the lives of the serfs under his command. I never asked,but now it occurs to me the army probably had a regulation demanding battle rifles normally be carried with an empty chamber,too.

Hell of a thing when commanders can't trust their own  troops with loaded weapons.
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Offline sneakypete

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I had to learn to field strip my Father-in-Law's M1911 a year or so ago.  Modern weapons come apart and go back together MUCH easier.   My Sig strips and cleans in two simple steps, the 1911 is a pain in the @$$.

Some updates are a good thing.

@Just_Victor

Huh? How hard is it to pull a slide off,remove the barrel,and then put it back on? People were doing this while blindfolded for about 60 years.  It's really not very complicated.
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Offline sneakypete

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I'll third that.  Field stripping a P320/M17 is almost soldier proof.

@txradioguy  Ok,but  that doesn't make the 1911 complex unless you have a different understanding of the definition "field strip" than I do.

Maybe it's as much a generational thing as anything else?
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Offline Just_Victor

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I'll third that.  Field stripping a P320/M17 is almost soldier proof.

Releasing the spring on my F-i-Ls 1911 gave new meaning to the phrase, "you'll put you eye out with that, kid."
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Offline txradioguy

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I still don't understand why they replaced the 1911A1.


@sneakypete

The way it was explained to me way back in U.S. Weapons at Ft. Sill was that it was done for uniformity with the rest of the NATO that was using 9mm...same with 5.56 and the M16.

The other reason that was explained to me was that you could hump more of the lighter and smaller 9mm and 5.56 than you could 45 ACP and 7.62.

In addition the brainiacs at the Pentagon determined that you could take out 2-3 people by shooting one with ammo that wounded instead of killed a soldier immediately.  Shoot one WARSAW Pact soldier and one or two will stop to render first aid...voila you've taken three combatants off the field of battle.

It's obvious from dealing with the Jihadis and the results of close combat like Operation Mountain Lion in Afghanistan that those brainiacs never factored in dealing with people that just don't give a crap if the guy next to them is shot.

MARSOC has continued to use the .45 ACP...in fact Colt even came out with a new model of the 1911 for them because the armorers at Quantico were running out of issue .45's to cannibalize to keep the 1911 A1's functioning.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline txradioguy

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Releasing the spring on my F-i-Ls 1911 gave new meaning to the phrase, "you'll put you eye out with that, kid."

I wish my officers model 1911 had the same kind of disassembly of the spring as the full size.

This one is much harder to do.  But you're right about "you'll put your eye out" on both of them LOL!
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!