GLOCK VICE PRESIDENT: “Continue MHS, Don’t Settle for SIG” – Glock Asks Army to Keep Testing Pistols

[Fantom]

I still don't understand why they replaced the 1911A1.

Well,yeah,I do. Promises were made, bribes were paid,votes were promised,and the deal was done.

LOL... plus they had to accommodate the weak..uh "warriors".

[driftdiver]

Fairly certain operative parts of those guns are metal.

Anyways...I vote 1911... after all... how many rounds of 45 does one need.

As are parts of a glock.

1911s are good guns.  So are sig and glock

[RoosGirl]

No weapon choice is going to please everyone because personal tastes/preferences/hand sizes, etc. are different.  I greatly preferred the Berettas to the 1911A1's.  Went from earning a pizza box annually to getting my expert badge.  I know that plenty of people tinker with 1911's to make them more accurate/more ergonomic, but that option really doesn't exist for most people who are issued a stock weapon.

FWIW, the majority of the officers with whom I served in the 80's and 90's preferred the 92SF to the 1911a1 as well.  Certainly not unanimous, but definitely a majority.

The Beretta PX4 in .45 auto is a dream to shoot.  Even for my girl hands.  :)

[sneakypete]

 

We, my company, spent a month in a place we called Vanh Canh (there are other spellings) upgrading an airfield. We set up next to a compound of an SF group and what was said to be a battalion of ARVN. When we finished and returned to base we were informed by our CO that we had actually been, in so many words, bait.

Not really. They needed the improvements to the airfield,or you wouldn't have been there. You were no more "bait" than the VN or the SF guys that were there. Small groups in remote locations were always tempting targets for the NVA. Especially if they were on the Cambodian or Laotian border,so the NVA could run back across the border to safety the instant "Big Army" got geared up to  show enmass.

They knew that small groups of NVA had filtered down from the north and we were to give them a reason to come together for an attack. I suppose that then the 1st Cav, to which we were attached, were to come charging over the hills to blow us all away with their helo gunships.   

Small groups of NVA  didn't infiltrate to South VN.  Whole divisions came south down the Ho Chi Mihn Trail and set up bases all along  VN on the Cambodian and Laotian sides of the border. The Trail was in use 24/7 to bring down replacements and supplies. The NVA had actual bases there,with flag poles,barracks,cement bunkers on the perimeters,motor pools,hospitals,armored cars,etc,etc,etc. They used them to plan and stage attacks in VN,and then use them as a place to rebuild and train replacements after being chased back across the border. I was with MACV-SOG,and our job was going into Cambodia and Laos to locate those sites for air strikes,capture prisoners and records,monitor troop and equipment movements,tap telephone wires,etc,etc,etc. Lots of times we would discover new buildups across the border from some SF strategic A-Camp in VN,and then word would filter down through their command to tip them off so they would be suspecting an attack.

An SF sergeant had a picture showing some of the membrane airfield we'd laid down from maybe a few months after we'd left. He mentioned mortar attacks on the airfield but there were none while I was there. His online stuff is for some reason gone.

Do you remember his name or his team number? If you do,maybe I can find out,but I think we both know why. All these guys that survived are over 70 years old now,with a few still surviving that are even in their 80's. "Golden Years",my big red ass!

[endicom]

Do you remember his name or his team number? If you do,maybe I can find out,but I think we both know why. All these guys that survived are over 70 years old now,with a few still surviving that are even in their 80's. "Golden Years",my big red ass!

I'll PM you with what might have been his name. I think he spelled the name of the place as Van Canh (also Banh Canh or some other variant). The time period was late 1966.

Edit: His story was probably here: http://www.sflistteamhouse.com/scrapbook/index.htm

[sneakypete]

I'll PM you with what might have been his name. I think he spelled the name of the place as Van Canh (also Banh Canh or some other variant). The time period was late 1966.

The different spelling thing is normal when you go from one language to another,and add different pronunciations to the mix to boot.

Edit: His story was probably here: http://www.sflistteamhouse.com/scrapbook/index.htm

All the stories and writings at the teamhouse are linked to the names of the writers. There are a lot of interesting stories there,though. A lot of genuine history,too.

[Bigun]

I worked with Don Valentine on a couple of "special projects" in 66 - 67.   Picture brings back memories.

[endicom]

I worked with Don Valentine on a couple of "special projects" in 66 - 67.   Picture brings back memories.

I liked his writings when they were on his website. Now they are for a nominal fee at Amazon.

[sneakypete]

I worked with Don Valentine on a couple of "special projects" in 66 - 67.   Picture brings back memories.

@Bigun

VERY cool,but I doubt even he would recognize the Don Valentine in that photo anymore. Don is  one of the seriously good guys. VERY bright guy who seems to always take a humorous look at pretty much everything. Even though he and I were in the 1st at the same time and even in the same company part of that time from 65-67,I never met him until the Operation Tailwind blow up at CNN.

 I've been TDY from the SF List for a couple of years again now,and hesitate to go back on and find out who died while I was gone. I still miss talking with Bill Edge,Doug Miller,the worlds only Japanese Pollock,Bo Bobrowski,and too many others  that have passed. The world is a lesser place because they are no longer here.

[Bigun]

@Bigun

VERY cool,but I doubt even he would recognize the Don Valentine in that photo anymore. Don is  one of the seriously good guys. VERY bright guy who seems to always take a humorous look at pretty much everything. Even though he and I were in the 1st at the same time and even in the same company part of that time from 65-67,I never met him until the Operation Tailwind blow up at CNN.

 I've been TDY from the SF List for a couple of years again now,and hesitate to go back on and find out who died while I was gone. I still miss talking with Bill Edge,Doug Miller,the worlds only Japanese Pollock,Bo Bobrowski,and too many others  that have passed. The world is a lesser place because they are no longer here.

LOL!  I was looking at some old pictures the wife had out the other day. Some of me at around that same time and I'll assure you they do not resemble me today in any shape form or fashion!

Yeah!  Don was  indeed a very smart guy and damned sure knew what he was doing!  I probably bumped in to a lot of those other folks he posted pictures of back then as well but they weren't on the "need to know" list for what we were doing so I didn't have much to do with them.  They knew the drill.

[sneakypete]

LOL!  I was looking at some old pictures the wife had out the other day. Some of me at around that same time and I'll assure you they do not resemble me today in any shape form or fashion!

Yeah!  Don was  indeed a very smart guy and damned sure knew what he was doing!  I probably bumped in to a lot of those other folks he posted pictures of back then as well but they weren't on the "need to know" list for what we were doing so I didn't have much to do with them.  They knew the drill.

@Bigun

Were you with B-52? Operator,or ASA tech?

BTW,Don is still that thin. Or at least he was the last time I saw him,in 1998. Chances are he still is if he is still alive. Born and bred "Mountain Thin".

[Bigun]

@Bigun

Were you with B-52? Operator,or ASA tech?

BTW,Don is still that thin. Or at least he was the last time I saw him,in 1998. Chances are he still is if he is still alive. Born and bred "Mountain Thin".

I was working with people who didn't exist at the time using coms equipment that wasn't on anyones inventories.  The stuff I did with Don involved SVN  spooks and such. He helped provide coms cover for a couple of big deals that are, as far as I know, still under wraps.

Some routine coms contained info that only those with the proper equipment could even detect.

[sneakypete]

I was working with people who didn't exist at the time using coms equipment that wasn't on anyones inventories.  The stuff I did with Don involved SVN  spooks and such.

Yeah,that all sounds familiar.

He helped provide coms cover for a couple of big deals that are, as far as I know, still under wraps.

Maybe not. Pretty much everything SOG did back then is public knowledge now,including real names. AFAIK,nobody has ever compiled a list of code names,and at this late date with so many no longer above ground,I don't see that being done. Some guys did answer to their code names in casual conversations with people they knew and even became known by them publicly,but very few.

Some routine coms contained info that only those with the proper equipment could even detect.

What passed for routine coms in special projects had nothing in common with routine coms elsewhere. EVERYBODY in the projects had top secret crypto and code word clearances. You had to have them to even be allowed to volunteer. Pretty standard stuff for SF and the ASA who were NOT in VN,but from what I understand,not so much for the regular army. It was just the nature of the job,regardless of what job you were doing. Lots of times you would run into an old friend and ask him what he was doing,and the standard answer would be "If I told you,I'd have to kill you." Nobody took it personal,it was just the nature of the job. If it's classified "need to know",it's classified "need to know" and friends not involved in the operation have no need to know anything about it. That's pretty standard throughout the entire military. The only way SF stood out is the conventional military rarely has entire companies of men with secret and top secret clearances.

Sometimes they kept secrets from us about us. I had no idea I even had a passport until I was sitting on the runway at Pope in 65 in my civilian clothes with my parachute,web gear,and weapon beside me,waiting to see if I would be jumping into the former Belgian Congo on a rescue mission,and the SGM came by and handed it to me. The UN finally decided to send in a Belgian paratroop unit and the French Foreign Legion,and the natives suddenly stopped being restless. Say what you will about the French,but when the French Foreign Legion showed up anywhere the attitudes of the locals seemed to change instantly.

Hardly ever a dull moment in SF. I consider myself fortunate to have been lucky enough to serve in SF,and feel sorry for the people who missed out.

[Bigun]

"If I told you,I'd have to kill you."

@sneakypete

Yeah,  I still say that to people today.  It's a habit I guess.  Even after 50+ years I'm still uncomfortable talking about this stuff.  Is that just me or is it more common?

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete

Yeah,  I still say that to people today.  It's a habit I guess.  Even after 50+ years I'm still uncomfortable talking about this stuff.  Is that just me or is it more common?

@Bigun

I suspect it's common,but don't really know. I don't like to talk about details on anything I did because after trying a couple of times,it became obvious it was always a case of "you had to have been there yourself at one time or another or it won't make any sense". Seemed like I was even boring myself. We used to talk about this stuff all the time after a mission was over,both during the After Action Report and in the team rooms. You never knew when something you noticed on a mission or heard,or a tactic you or the NVA used would maybe save the life of someone else,or even a whole team. These briefings and casual conversations amongst us were VERY interesting,but about as exciting as white bread when trying to explain stuff to a outsider,so why bother?

[Bigun]

@Bigun

I suspect it's common,but don't really know. I don't like to talk about details on anything I did because after trying a couple of times,it became obvious it was always a case of "you had to have been there yourself at one time or another or it won't make any sense". Seemed like I was even boring myself. We used to talk about this stuff all the time after a mission was over,both during the After Action Report and in the team rooms. You never knew when something you noticed on a mission or saw would maybe save the life of someone else,or even a whole team. These briefings and casual conversations amongst us were VERY interesting,but about as exciting as white bread when trying to explain stuff to a outsider,so why bother?

@sneakypete

There is absolutely no point in talking about any of it with anyone who didn't experience it because they have no frame of reference that would allow them to engage you in the conversation.

[txradioguy]

@sneakypete

There is absolutely no point in talking about any of it whith anyone who didn't experience it because they have no frame of reference that would allow them to engage you in the conversation.

Same goes for those of us from the Somalia/Iraq/Afghanistan combat zones when we're around people who have either never experienced combat or aren't in uniform.

[Bigun]

Same goes for those of us from the Somalia/Iraq/Afghanistan combat zones when we're around people who have either never experienced combat or aren't in uniform.

I'm sure that's true. 

[TomSea]

Or those who haven't patrolled the border, seen Fort Bliss.

[sneakypete]

Same goes for those of us from the Somalia/Iraq/Afghanistan combat zones when we're around people who have either never experienced combat or aren't in uniform.

@txradioguy

Some things never change. One of my father's friends was drafted during WW-2 and became a tanker. He got a battlefield commission to 1st Lt,a Purple Heart,and a Silver Star during the invasion of Africa with Patton,and rode a tank all the way to the outskirts of Berlin. When the war ended,he didn't buy into the "rotation time home" plan in place,so he just bought a boat ticket and came home. Told me as far as he was concerned "I was drafted for the duration of  the war,and I remained in uniform for the duration of the war. The war was over so I came home."  I guess his war record kept him from  serving any time.

I had known this man all my life,and didn't have a clue about any of this until he was old and needed help moving a refrigerator out  of his tiny 2 room house. That was when I saw all the photos under the glass on his kitchen table. He knew when I enlisted in the army and he had seen me in uniform,but had never said a word until I saw those photos and asked him about them. The only time in my life I ever saw him anything but happy was that day,when I mentioned Patton. I thought the top of his head was going to come off. He was NOT a Patton fan,even though Patton was the one that pinned his SS  and silver bars on him.

He wasn't ashamed of anything he did,and he didn't have any PTSD. He said he never talked about it because there was no one around that would understand it.

[sneakypete]

Or those who haven't patrolled the border, seen Fort Bliss.

@TomSea

I know you are making a joke,but it's true. Even if you have never been in combat,if you have worn the uniform and patrolled a base on guard duty,you have a frame of reference.

[unite for individuality]

@Bigun

I suspect it's common,but don't really know. I don't like to talk about details on anything I did because after trying a couple of times,it became obvious it was always a case of "you had to have been there yourself at one time or another or it won't make any sense". Seemed like I was even boring myself. We used to talk about this stuff all the time after a mission was over,both during the After Action Report and in the team rooms. You never knew when something you noticed on a mission or heard,or a tactic you or the NVA used would maybe save the life of someone else,or even a whole team. These briefings and casual conversations amongst us were VERY interesting,but about as exciting as white bread when trying to explain stuff to a outsider,so why bother?

If it's so boring, why do they make movies about it?

I've never worn the uniform,
but I've heard plenty of stories second and third hand,
and thought they were pretty interesting.

[Bigun]

@txradioguy

Some things never change. One of my father's friends was drafted during WW-2 and became a tanker. He got a battlefield commission to 1st Lt,a Purple Heart,and a Silver Star during the invasion of Africa with Patton,and rode a tank all the way to the outskirts of Berlin. When the war ended,he didn't buy into the "rotation time home" plan in place,so he just bought a boat ticket and came home. Told me as far as he was concerned "I was drafted for the duration of  the war,and I remained in uniform for the duration of the war. The war was over so I came home."  I guess his war record kept him from  serving any time.

I had known this man all my life,and didn't have a clue about any of this until he was old and needed help moving a refrigerator out  of his tiny 2 room house. That was when I saw all the photos under the glass on his kitchen table. He knew when I enlisted in the army and he had seen me in uniform,but had never said a word until I saw those photos and asked him about them. The only time in my life I ever saw him anything but happy was that day,when I mentioned Patton. I thought the top of his head was going to come off. He was NOT a Patton fan,even though Patton was the one that pinned his SS  and silver bars on him.

He wasn't ashamed of anything he did,and he didn't have any PTSD. He said he never talked about it because there was no one around that would understand it.

One of the things I most remember about my growing up years  is that my South Pacific Marine father and three of my uncles who had all seen long Army service in Europe during the war seemed to wind up off by themselves at every event that brought them together for any length of time.  If someone from outside that group ventured into their territory their conversations got immediately shut down until the offending party moved on.  Didn't understand that at the time but it makes perfect sense to me now.

[unite for individuality]

IMHO,the worse drawback to the 1911A1 was the army regulation that demanded you carry one in the issue full-flap holster with an empty chamber.  As usual with large organizations,the rules were written by people with no experience in the field,and their eyes firmly on annual safety reports,where the CO's career is more important than the lives of the serfs under his command. I never asked,but now it occurs to me the army probably had a regulation demanding battle rifles normally be carried with an empty chamber,too.

Hell of a thing when commanders can't trust their own  troops with loaded weapons.

Just wanted to give that statement the emphasis it deserves.

I STILL want to know who gave the order
for the guards of those 241 Marines in Lebanon in 1983
to have unloaded guns!
_______

Okay, I just looked here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombings#Mission

It provides A LITTLE info about it:

"Until October 23, 1983, there were ten guidelines issued for each U.S. Marine member of the MNF:

1. When on post, mobile or foot patrol, keep loaded magazine in weapon, bolt closed, weapon on safe, no round in the chamber.

2. Do not chamber a round unless instructed to do so by a commissioned officer unless you must act in immediate self-defense where deadly force is authorized.

3. Keep ammo for crew-served weapons readily available but not loaded in the weapon. Weapons will be on safe at all times.
...

The perimeter guards at the U.S. Marine headquarters on the morning of October 23, 1983, were in full compliance with rules 1-3 and were unable to shoot fast enough to disable or stop the bomber.

[RoosGirl]

@sneakypete

There is absolutely no point in talking about any of it whith anyone who didn't experience it because they have no frame of reference that would allow them to engage you in the conversation.

I have never served.  But I just wanted to add my little 2 cents to this statement.  I feel like this is the same thing as my saying  you've never been an engineer so I'm not going to bother talking to you about that time of my life because you wouldn't understand it.  Or, you've never been a stay at home mom so I'm not goinv to talk to you about it.  It separates us.  And I think it denies comraderie to people who are genuinely interested in your experience and learning from it and in awe of the sacrifices y'all made.  I am really hoping I am explaining this in a way that does not seem confrontational.  My grandpa was in the Ardennes.  He never talked about it with us other than in huge sweeping generalities; it was cold, etc.And I feel like we missed out because I can tell my child that his great grandpa fought at the Bulge, but I have hardly anything that puts a specific human experience with the man.