Why Conservatives Still Attack Trump

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Yes this will be quickly locked.

[DiogenesLamp]

What I seem to get from it is that the author has a seriously twisted view of the world: without Trump, it's a post-apocalyptic nightmare of smoldering ruins of what used to be 'Murica,

The amazing thing to me is not that they see it that way,  it's that anyone who has presumably been paying attention to the trends does not see it that way. 


It's like you have no idea how bad things would have been if that psychotic Nazi hate witch had won.  She would have unleashed hell on us. 

[driftdiver]

And there it is.   People did not grasp the degree of threat that Hillary represented.   They just didn't perceive the font of evil that would have been unleashed upon us had she been victorious.   


No matter what I said,  not matter what information I provided,  I could not get some to grasp just how truly rotten was this person and how she would utilize the Federal Government to badly harm us all.   


Donald Trump was an interim measure.   He was like pounding canvas and wood into the hole in a ship's hull to prevent it from sinking.   He was by no means what I regarded as a proper repair,   but he was the best alternative available to keep us afloat until something more permanent could be done.

@DiogenesLamp

I'm kinda hoping he doesnt run for a second term and Pence runs.

[Hurricane Andrew]

Tax reform? What changed for the better? What passes quickly through congress is like what passes quickly through a goose.

Let's see, lower marginal rates across the board.  Reduction in the capital gains tax.  Increased pre-tax contribution limits to retirement plans.  Made sweeping changes to the estate or "death" tax, raising exemption limits and reducing the nominal rate.  Granted it wasn't a sea-change such as implementing a flat tax, but was quite conservative and focused on individual taxpayer relief.  In fact, Trump's original plan largely mirrored this approach contrary to several of the other candidates who were pushing more structural reform in their proposals.  That's what make's Trumps campaign promise more realistic and easier to achieve, had he actually meant it.

https://taxfoundation.org/looking-back-bush-tax-cuts-fifteen-years-later/

[DiogenesLamp]

Exactly. Trumpophiles have created a false dichotomy that serves their need for a Great Leader. Theirs is a world of binary choices and affiliations that purposefully ignores actual reality - whose shades of color, imperfections, and messy little details invite honest criticism and intellectual discrimination.

What sort of government do you think we would have had if Hitlery Rotten Clinton was commanding the FBI, the IRS,  the EPA and homeland security?   This is the woman that altered official documents to deny Richard Nixon his right to counsel.  She lied to a Federal Judge and presented these altered documents to him as if they were real.  (She was fired for this.  She should have been prosecuted.) 


This is a woman who created the "Travel-Gate" kickback scheme and was willing to put innocent people in prison to cover up her involvement in this felonious endeavor.   This is a woman who gained access to FBI files so that she could use them against her political enemies.   


This is a woman who has used every opportunity to commit illegal and unethical acts in an effort to sell influence, get rich,  or ruin her political enemies.   


This is a woman without any scruples or mercy,   so yeah,  I pretty much saw it as a binary choice.   We either get Hitlerette,   or we get a Boorish New York businessman who at least seems to love his country.   

[DCPatriot]

IMO, conservatives on this site mostly disagree with Trump on principle, and do not "attack" him personally. It is not an attack IMO to point out that he often changes his stance on most issues, or for acting unpresidential with his often insulting tweets.

When somebody refers to my President as "The Orange Baboon"....."The Orange Julius", etc., that's a gratuitous attack.

It's happens here HOURLY.

[DiogenesLamp]

The battle is between the globalists Marxists that desire a free flow of capital, goods and people across a border-less world.  And nationalists that wish to preserve language, culture and country. The battle has nothing to do with conservative vrs liberal. D vrs R is so 20th century. Wake up this is the 21st century and things have changed. 

Most elected Republicans are just as bad as a lot of elected Democrats. They form the uniparty and the uniparty is not your friend and does not have the best interests of the American people as a priority. 

The uniparty does the bidding of the billionaire donor class and the billionaire donor class wants cheap labor and open borders. The billionaire donor class does not give a rats ass about American jobs or American workers.

I guess this is the appropriate time to put forth a theory I have been looking at for the last two years.   That "Globalist" Billionaire donor class of which you speak was created by the Civil War. 


These people reside mostly from Washington D.C. to Boston ,  and they run the nation and have since 1861.   It was the civil war itself which gave them this power,  and they have never let it go since then.   


The political philosophy of Abraham Lincoln (and his mentor Henry Clay)  was "Mercantilism. "   This term can best be understood today as analogous with "crony capitalism."    An unhealthy close relationship between powerful business interests and the US Government,   different from Fascism only in degree. 


The post Lincoln era (Known as the Gilded Age)  was a period of massive corruption and scandal involving government and business.   This was the time when Powerful influential businessmen more or less got the government to do it's bidding,   and this period did not end until Teddy Roosevelt put a stop to this influence peddling.   

Anti-trust legislation also came toward the end of this period. 

[Bigun]

I guess this is the appropriate time to put forth a theory I have been looking at for the last two years.   That "Globalist" Billionaire donor class of which you speak was created by the Civil War. 


These people reside mostly from Washington D.C. to Boston ,  and they run the nation and have since 1861.   It was the civil war itself which gave them this power,  and they have never let it go since then.   


The political philosophy of Abraham Lincoln (and his mentor Henry Clay)  was "Mercantilism. "   This term can best be understood today as analogous with "crony capitalism."    An unhealthy close relationship between powerful business interests and the US Government,   different from Fascism only in degree. 


The post Lincoln era (Known as the Gilded Age)  was a period of massive corruption and scandal involving government and business.   This was the time when Powerful influential businessmen more or less got the government to do it's bidding,   and this period did not end until Teddy Roosevelt put a stop to this influence peddling.   

Anti-trust legislation also came toward the end of this period.

IMHO you can take that out of the theory class and move it right up to the FACT class! 

[Night Hides Not]

I guess this is the appropriate time to put forth a theory I have been looking at for the last two years.   That "Globalist" Billionaire donor class of which you speak was created by the Civil War. 


These people reside mostly from Washington D.C. to Boston ,  and they run the nation and have since 1861.   It was the civil war itself which gave them this power,  and they have never let it go since then.   


The political philosophy of Abraham Lincoln (and his mentor Henry Clay)  was "Mercantilism. "   This term can best be understood today as analogous with "crony capitalism."    An unhealthy close relationship between powerful business interests and the US Government,   different from Fascism only in degree. 


The post Lincoln era (Known as the Gilded Age)  was a period of massive corruption and scandal involving government and business.   This was the time when Powerful influential businessmen more or less got the government to do it's bidding,   and this period did not end until Teddy Roosevelt put a stop to this influence peddling.   

Anti-trust legislation also came toward the end of this period.

DL, who will be the modern day "Teddy Roosevelt" that will follow the "Jay Gould" that's now residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?

Ok, that may be a bit harsh to say Trump = Jay Gould, but there's plenty of evidence over the past 40 years that would lead one to describing Donald Trump as a crony capitalist.

[Sanguine]

What sort of government do you think we would have had if Hitlery Rotten Clinton was commanding the FBI, the IRS,  the EPA and homeland security?   This is the woman that altered official documents to deny Richard Nixon his right to counsel.  She lied to a Federal Judge and presented these altered documents to him as if they were real.  (She was fired for this.  She should have been prosecuted.) 


This is a woman who created the "Travel-Gate" kickback scheme and was willing to put innocent people in prison to cover up her involvement in this felonious endeavor.   This is a woman who gained access to FBI files so that she could use them against her political enemies.   


This is a woman who has used every opportunity to commit illegal and unethical acts in an effort to sell influence, get rich,  or ruin her political enemies.   


This is a woman without any scruples or mercy,   so yeah,  I pretty much saw it as a binary choice.   We either get Hitlerette,   or we get a Boorish New York businessman who at least seems to love his country.

What sort of government do you think we would have if we had elected an ethical conservative?

[DiogenesLamp]

DL, who will be the modern day "Teddy Roosevelt" that will follow the "Jay Gould" that's now residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?

Ok, that may be a bit harsh to say Trump = Jay Gould, but there's plenty of evidence over the past 40 years that would lead one to describing Donald Trump as a crony capitalist.

Crony Capitalist with New York City and New York State,   but I'm not aware of any evidence that he had much influence with the US Government.   


I was sort of viewing him as another Teddy Roosevelt insofar as he comes from the same class and background as did Teddy,  and yet he seems to be siding with his class's political enemies against the class from which he emerged.   (as did Teddy.)   
 


He's siding with "those people"  against the upper crust Billionaires that have been running rampant in the eras of Clinton and Obama and to some degree during both Bush terms. 

At least that is what it appears he is doing to me.   I suppose we shall just have to keep a close watch on him to see if he does some things that benefit the Globalist billionaire donor class.

[Silver Pines]

There are so many false premises in Prager's article.  I'm going to take them one by one.

In the case of my conservative friends who still snipe (or worse) at President Trump

Or worse?  What does that even mean?  Has someone tried to go after Trump with a baseball bat?

But to try to change their minds, I must first try to understand their thinking.

Big mistake, and for more than one reason.  Firstly, this is America.  It's okay to dislike a politician, even a president.  Becoming a Trump evangelist and trying to change minds about that is only going to annoy and irritate people.  It's best to butt out and make peace with the fact that people have differing opinions. 

The first and, by far, the greatest reason is this: They do not believe that America is engaged in a civil war, with the survival of America as we know it at stake.

Wrong.  We get that.  But we also understand that the future of America doesn't hinge on propping up a personality.  Trump supporters would do much better to hold his feet to the fire...like they said they would once he was elected.

That is why, after vigorously opposing Trump's candidacy during the Republican primaries, I vigorously supported him once he won the nomination.

In other words, do as I do, or you're wrong.  Trump has to prove himself by keeping his campaign promises.  The American people owe him nothing.

To my amazement, no anti-Trump conservative writer sees it that way.

He's 100% wrong.  I read several of them on Twitter who would disagree with his claim, and who I suspect will be correcting him publically once they read his article.

I notice in Prager's listing of the Trump actions he approves of, he carefully avoided listing the campaign promises Trump has backtracked on.

There is also a cultural divide. Anti-Trump conservatives are a very refined group of people. Trump doesn't talk like them. Moreover, the cultural milieu in which the vast majority of anti-Trump conservatives live and/or work means that to support Trump is to render oneself contemptible at all elite dinner parties.

I'm certain that Prager has been to more elite dinner parties than I have.  I would lay money on it with total confidence.  My husband is a rural carrier for the USPS.

On the other hand, his wealthy parents are staunch Trump supporters.

In addition, anti-Trump conservatives see themselves as highly moral people (which they often are)

What is Prager saying about himself?  That he's immoral?

Finally, these people are only human: After investing so much energy in opposing Trump's election, and after predicting his nomination would lead to electoral disaster, it's hard to for them to admit they were wrong.

Wrong yet again.  The morning after the election, I congratulated the Trump supporters on the board and admitted I had been totally wrong about his chances of winning.  Two of them were graceful enough to respond, which I appreciated.   I don't know a single person who's having a problem admitting they were wrong about that, because I don't know anyone whose life revolves around politics.  I do understand that people like Prager want to believe it, though.

That means that only if he fails can their reputations be redeemed. And they, of course, know that.

What I know is that I've never seen a guy be wrong so many times in one article.  My reputation has nothing to do with politics or Donald Trump.  All of us are wrong about things, all of the time, and will continue to be so.  We're human. 

They can join the fight. They can accept an imperfect reality and acknowledge that we are in a civil war, and that Trump, with all his flaws, is our general.

Lol, "our general?"  Is this guy for real?

Trump is a public servant and it's time for him to get off Twitter and buckle down to work.

If this general is going to win, he needs the best fighters.

He already won.  Time for Trump supporters to hold his feet to the fire like they promised.  Prager's personality cult fantasies are kind of disturbing.

I beg them: Please report for duty.

I have zero duty to prop up politicians.  Trump is our employee, so it's time for him to report for duty and produce results. 

I can't wait for the articles that will come out in response to this tangle of absurdities.

[INVAR]

The amazing thing to me is not that they see it that way,  it's that anyone who has presumably been paying attention to the trends does not see it that way. 


It's like you have no idea how bad things would have been if that psychotic Nazi hate witch had won.  She would have unleashed hell on us.

We 'survived' Obama.  We may have 'survived' Hildabeast.

What we CANNOT survive - are the millions upon millions who would make such people their rulers.

We have devolved to the point of near-monarchy and voting for ever-increasing Liberals and Socialists to high office to 'checkmate' the worse of the "choices", guarantees we are going to end up where you fear we are going to end up anyway.   Voting for politicians is not going to save us.

[Bigun]

What sort of government do you think we would have if we had elected an ethical conservative?

@Sanguine

Do you want an honest answer to that question?

[Silver Pines]

Yes this will be quickly locked.

Maybe we can do Myst a favor and avoid the namecalling and fighting.

[DiogenesLamp]

What sort of government do you think we would have if we had elected an ethical conservative?

Once Cruz was eliminated in the primary (in my opinion by vile tactics which Trump used)   we no longer had that option.   


Our choices than became psychotic super Evil Hate Witch,  or Unethical boorish Businessman. 


You can't pick "Ethical Conservative"  when that choice has been removed from the running. 


But yeah,  I would have preferred Cruz,  and I think he would have taken better steps to drain the Swamp than has Trump. 

[DiogenesLamp]

We 'survived' Obama.  We may have 'survived' Hildabeast.

We barely survived Obama.   Hillary would have regarded her "inevitability"  as an affirmation of Obama's evil behavior and as a mandate for her to go farther.    Hillary is a true believer socialist,  while Obama was a socialist leaning lazy fool with gutter fighting instincts and Chicago influence. 

What we CANNOT survive - are the millions upon millions who would make such people their rulers.

I keep coming back to Liberal control of all means of broadcasting to the American people.   These "sheeple"  were manufactured by the Liberal Broadcasting system.   They were created because they were programed with crap fed to them by the only system really capable of reaching these sorts of numbers.   

The people are stupid because the media keeps knowledge from them that they need to  know to make sensible decisions. 

We have devolved to the point of near-monarchy and voting for ever-increasing Liberals and Socialists to high office to 'checkmate' the worse of the "choices", guarantees we are going to end up where you fear we are going to end up anyway.   Voting for politicians is not going to save us.

It is a stop gap measure until we can get access to the information broadcasting systems,  or until alternative systems can come into their own sufficient to destroy the effectiveness of the broadcasting systems currently under liberal control. 


I keep saying this.   Till we get some means of getting information to the American people that can help them make better decisions,   we are going to keep losing ground.   


Again,  Trump is a stop gap measure.  The real war needs to be fought over who controls the airwaves. 

[DCPatriot]

DL, who will be the modern day "Teddy Roosevelt" that will follow the "Jay Gould" that's now residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?

Ok, that may be a bit harsh to say Trump = Jay Gould, but there's plenty of evidence over the past 40 years that would lead one to describing Donald Trump as a crony capitalist.

Actually....you've both pointed out that, in fact, Donald Trump 'IS' Teddy Roosevelt in at least one sense.

"Speak softly, but carry a big stick" .... is being taught to ISIS right now, and North Korea has picked the next number to be called upon.

[Sanguine]

Once Cruz was eliminated in the primary (in my opinion by vile tactics which Trump used)   we no longer had that option.   


Our choices than became psychotic super Evil Hate Witch,  or Unethical boorish Businessman. 


You can't pick "Ethical Conservative"  when that choice has been removed from the running. 


But yeah,  I would have preferred Cruz,  and I think he would have taken better steps to drain the Swamp than has Trump.

If the Cruz question is no longer valid, then neither is the Hillary one. 

Let's work with what we've got.

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine

Do you want an honest answer to that question?

I would expect nothing else from you, @Bigun.

[Sanguine]

There are so many false premises in Prager's article.  I'm going to take them one by one.

...

Yes, that is deeply disappointing coming from Prager.  He is no longer the courageous truth speaker that he once was.

[Right_in_Virginia]

There are so many false premises in Prager's article.  I'm going to take them one by one. .../

I can't wait for the articles that will come out in response to this tangle of absurdities.

Here's the money quote, IMO, from the article ..... and again, IMO, it's not absurd, but the essence of the NT resistance:

Finally, these people are only human: After investing so much energy in opposing Trump's election, and after predicting his nomination would lead to electoral disaster, it's hard to for them to admit they were wrong. To see him fulfill many of his conservative election promises, again in defiance of predictions, is a bitter pill. But if they hang on to their Never-Trumpism and the president falls on his face, they can say they were right all along.

https://townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/2017/05/30/why-conservatives-still-attack-trump-n2332924

[DCPatriot]

Once Cruz was eliminated in the primary (in my opinion by vile tactics which Trump used)   we no longer had that option.   


Our choices than became psychotic super Evil Hate Witch,  or Unethical boorish Businessman. 


You can't pick "Ethical Conservative"  when that choice has been removed from the running. 


But yeah,  I would have preferred Cruz,  and I think he would have taken better steps to drain the Swamp than has Trump.

Have to disagree on this point, @DiogenesLamp because Obama's "Deep State" was being put into place no matter WHO won....including, Hillary Clinton.

They would eat Ted Cruz alive, because his shtick to respond to attacks was similar to W's.

I think we should get on bended knee and give thanks we have a 'brawler' in the White House who simply wants to right the wrongs of the past eight years.

....make that 12 years.

[DiogenesLamp]

If the Cruz question is no longer valid, then neither is the Hillary one. 

Okay, you lost me on that.   What is it that you are trying to say here?

[Bigun]

I would expect nothing else from you, @Bigun.

@Sanguine

OK then! You shall have it.

The answer is that not much would change.

The BIG problem is not in who we elect to any office including the presidency! The BIG problem is the huge and currently un fireable  bureaucracy we have in Washington and until we somehow get a handle on that nothing much is going to change regardless of who we elect to any office.

The oft heard slogan among those folks is "I'll still be here when you're long gone buddy!"  And the sad part is that they are exactly right when they say that!