Author Topic: Gallup: Americans’ views on most moral issues now more liberal to a record extent  (Read 7341 times)

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Offline Jazzhead

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Yep, if two married young in love folks agree and want to swing from vines in the bedroom with mirrors everywhere, God has no problem with it. God made sex, and within the confines of marriage God is quite generous. I don't know why people get the idea that Christians are prudish when it comes to sex. I have seen past polls that actually show Christian married people rating their sexual experiences above others.

Good response.  Good post. 
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Offline Smokin Joe

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@Smokin Joe  You just used that as a crutch.
Oh, no. It was waaay too tender for that.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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First of all, I'll admit the obvious - I'm trying to be provocative here,  so I expect the pushback.   But it's depressing that the reaction is always so personal.   Why is the subject of sexual repression by religion taboo?   

I was initially responding to the sky-is-falling reaction to the morality poll that is the topic thread.   I wasn't bothered,  because the real moral wrong - having an extramarital affair and the vow-breaking that entails -  remains universally condemned.  So why is the sky falling?   Because religious strictures against consensual and victimless sexual activity have been loosening.   

Why is that such a threat?   Sexual responsibility should be the issue,  not arbitrary self-denial of sexual pleasure in the name of religion.   In today's world,  female genital mutilation is the most abhorrent practice - certainly it is the most brutal and permanent - but it's a symptom of a larger disease, if you will.   Most religions teach repression of sexual pleasure for its own sake.

 NO - female genital mutilation is NOT equivalent to the Catholic prohibition against the use of contraceptives.   It is far worse.   But each is symptomatic of a mindset that sex for pleasure and not procreation is to be discouraged, even within the bounds of a faithful and consensual relationship.   I simply disagree with that.  Fidelity and responsibility should be the issues, not arbitrary self-denial.

Please don't project that because I question the Catholic prohibition against the use of contraceptives, that I "dislike" Catholic teachings.  I actually respond to the Catholic faith and message far more than I do the evangelicals.   My sister converted to Catholicism,  and I think she did the right thing.
You seem to miss a salient and quite important point. The idea that sex is forbidden isn't correct, nor the concept that it is somehow taboo. It is the context of the sexual relationship that really matters.
Outside of marriage, yep, forbidden--which reduces bastardy, adultery, fornication and the complexities which come with those which are destructive to society (because they are destructive to the fundamental social unit, the family.

That marriage is defined as between a man and a woman certainly exists hand in glove with the idea that procreation and the formation of a family unit provide security and nurturing to progeny as well as social continuity within the culture. That basic biological unit is as planned, operating as designed, for that purpose and the continued existence of the species.

Within that context, if sex was not pleasant, the objective of continuing the species would not be achieved, so in His wisdom, The Creator made that a very pleasant thing. If it were not, there would never be a second child, and humanity would have died out long ago.

Religious constraints on sexual behaviour are there to support the continuity of culture, stability of the biological family,  and to reduce the complexities in social interactions.
Outside of that context, relationships tend to be unstable: Every couple I know who fell for the 'open marriage' concept ended up divorcing, although that may indicate weaknesses which went unaddressed in their marriages because of their change in emphasis, again exposing the dangers inherent to family stability from gratuitous sexual behaviour and promiscuity.
So there is no prohibition in the vast majority of Christian sects on having enjoyable sexual relations within a marriage where the man and woman are mutually faithful.
Saying that deriving pleasure from sex within that context without actually making babies is incorrect, although the primary reason of the marriage may be for the family and procreation.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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First of all, I'll admit the obvious - I'm trying to be provocative here,


There's a surprise.

Quote
so I expect the pushback.   But it's depressing that the reaction is always so personal.   Why is the subject of sexual repression by religion taboo?   

It isn't repression.  You call it that because it doesn't support free-for-all, anything with anyone at anytime sex.  To you, limits translate to repression. 

Quote
I was initially responding to the sky-is-falling reaction to the morality poll that is the topic thread.   I wasn't bothered,  because the real moral wrong - having an extramarital affair and the vow-breaking that entails -  remains universally condemned.  So why is the sky falling?   Because religious strictures against consensual and victimless sexual activity have been loosening.
 

What's happening is that people are disregarding them more and more.  That's not a shock.  Human nature leans toward deterioration. 

You say that free sex is victimless but the opposite is true.   Heartbreak, emotional and self-esteem problems---especially for women---sexually transmitted diseases, pregnancies out of wedlock, and abortions....the sexual revolution has produced countless victims, and continues to do so.  Also, those single parent pregnancies lead to childhood poverty and a greatly increased probability of future criminal behavior.

Quote
Why is that such a threat?   Sexual responsibility should be the issue,  not arbitrary self-denial of sexual pleasure in the name of religion.   In today's world,  female genital mutilation is the most abhorrent practice - certainly it is the most brutal and permanent - but it's a symptom of a larger disease, if you will.   Most religions teach repression of sexual pleasure for its own sake.

Just as you like to portray Christians as "threatened" by homosexuals, you do the same here.  It's a false premise.  It makes you feel self-satisfied and justified in your beliefs to do so.  Recognizing that something is wrong doesn't equate to being "threatened.' 

All I can tell you is that God inspired the Scriptures which lay down His rules for sex in its proper context.  If you don't like them, talk to Him about it.  The fact remains that a lot of crap is avoided by paying attention to those rules.

And I say that as a non-prude who wasn't a virgin on my wedding night.  I wish that had been the case.

 
Quote
NO - female genital mutilation is NOT equivalent to the Catholic prohibition against the use of contraceptives.   It is far worse.   But each is symptomatic of a mindset that sex for pleasure and not procreation is to be discouraged, even within the bounds of a faithful and consensual relationship.   I simply disagree with that.  Fidelity and responsibility should be the issues, not arbitrary self-denial.

No, those "mindsets" have nothing to do with each other. 

If a Christian believes the Bible, there's nothing arbitrary about it.


Quote
Please don't project that because I question the Catholic prohibition against the use of contraceptives, that I "dislike" Catholic teachings.  I actually respond to the Catholic faith and message far more than I do the evangelicals.   My sister converted to Catholicism,  and I think she did the right thing.

@Jazzhead, like I said, you really  need to open your mind and move beyond your prejudices.  You don't have a clue as to how evangelicals---those toothless snakehandlers, amirite?--- respond to the Catholic faith.


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Not surprised.  I've seen the moral meter the past 50 years drop to a level that is tempting God's hand of wrath.
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Offline Axeslinger

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There's a surprise...respond to the Catholic faith.

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As always....youdababe!  Love reading your replies!

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Offline INVAR

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There's a surprise.

It isn't repression.  You call it that because it doesn't support free-for-all, anything with anyone at anytime sex.  To you, limits translate to repression. 
 
What's happening is that people are disregarding them more and more.  That's not a shock.  Human nature leans toward deterioration. 

You say that free sex is victimless but the opposite is true.   Heartbreak, emotional and self-esteem problems---especially for women---sexually transmitted diseases, pregnancies out of wedlock, and abortions....the sexual revolution has produced countless victims, and continues to do so.  Also, those single parent pregnancies lead to childhood poverty and a greatly increased probability of future criminal behavior.

Just as you like to portray Christians as "threatened" by homosexuals, you do the same here.  It's a false premise.  It makes you feel self-satisfied and justified in your beliefs to do so.  Recognizing that something is wrong doesn't equate to being "threatened.' 

All I can tell you is that God inspired the Scriptures which lay down His rules for sex in its proper context.  If you don't like them, talk to Him about it.  The fact remains that a lot of crap is avoided by paying attention to those rules.

And I say that as a non-prude who wasn't a virgin on my wedding night.  I wish that had been the case.

No, those "mindsets" have nothing to do with each other. 

If a Christian believes the Bible, there's nothing arbitrary about it.

@Jazzhead, like I said, you really  need to open your mind and move beyond your prejudices.  You don't have a clue as to how evangelicals---those toothless snakehandlers, amirite?--- respond to the Catholic faith.

Well said. Well done.
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...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Cyber Liberty

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First of all, I'll admit the obvious - I'm trying to be provocative here,  so I expect the pushback.   But it's depressing that the reaction is always so personal.   Why is the subject of sexual repression by religion taboo?   

I was initially responding to the sky-is-falling reaction to the morality poll that is the topic thread.   I wasn't bothered,  because the real moral wrong - having an extramarital affair and the vow-breaking that entails -  remains universally condemned.  So why is the sky falling?   Because religious strictures against consensual and victimless sexual activity have been loosening.   

Why is that such a threat?   Sexual responsibility should be the issue,  not arbitrary self-denial of sexual pleasure in the name of religion.   In today's world,  female genital mutilation is the most abhorrent practice - certainly it is the most brutal and permanent - but it's a symptom of a larger disease, if you will.   Most religions teach repression of sexual pleasure for its own sake.

 NO - female genital mutilation is NOT equivalent to the Catholic prohibition against the use of contraceptives.   It is far worse.   But each is symptomatic of a mindset that sex for pleasure and not procreation is to be discouraged, even within the bounds of a faithful and consensual relationship.   I simply disagree with that.  Fidelity and responsibility should be the issues, not arbitrary self-denial.

Please don't project that because I question the Catholic prohibition against the use of contraceptives, that I "dislike" Catholic teachings.  I actually respond to the Catholic faith and message far more than I do the evangelicals.   My sister converted to Catholicism,  and I think she did the right thing.

I'm glad I read this from you.  Changed my perspective.
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Offline Idiot

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Funny thing about right and wrong, they aren't up for a vote.

If you are in a room with 99 other people and they vote to take your stuff, strip you naked and kick you out in the snow, does that make it "right"?

Evil does not become less evil because more people are doing it or support it, it just becomes more commonplace.
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Offline roamer_1

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Hateful?  No way.  I'm a live and let live guy,  but the usual suspects on this board despise my neighbors and see no moral issue with the sick and the poor dying with no access to health insurance.   I speak out against Christians who've forgotten Christ's teachings of humility, compassion and empathy for the less fortunate.

 

WHAT UTTER PAP.

Offline INVAR

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Quote from: Jazzhead on May 12, 2017, 11:36:57 AM
Hateful?  No way.  I'm a live and let live guy,  but the usual suspects on this board despise my neighbors and see no moral issue with the sick and the poor dying with no access to health insurance


WHAT UTTER PAP.

He only speaks out against Christians who will not adopt Liberal Socialism and Hedonism as good and holy.

Quote
Quote from: Jazzhead on May 12, 2017, 11:36:57 AM
I speak out against Christians who've forgotten Christ's teachings of humility, compassion and empathy for the less fortunate.

When he goes to live in a third world slum like I have to care for the caste of persecuted, suffering and impoverished people who face death daily for their faith - THEN he will have a bit more authority to condemn Christians as having no humility, compassion or empathy.



His whole focus is condemning those Christians who will not condone, accept, praise and participate in deviant, abominable and wicked behavior.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 06:48:21 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline roamer_1

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I admire Jesus Christ like I do no other - and my disaffection stems solely from certain "Christians" acting in ways that would, at least in my opinion, appall the Prince of Peace.

 

Then follow him. He sets the example. And that example invariably points to TORAH. Yeshua ddid not come to set the libertine free. He came to show how to keep the instructions of YHWH.

Go and SIN NO MORE.

Offline roamer_1

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Is it a contest of "power", or one of "morals" and The West's cultural values and faith in itself?

It is the west's faith in itself that is the problem.
There was a time when her faith was placed in Another.

Offline kevindavis007

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Hateful?  No way.  I'm a live and let live guy,  but the usual suspects on this board despise my neighbors and see no moral issue with the sick and the poor dying with no access to health insurance.   I speak out against Christians who've forgotten Christ's teachings of humility, compassion and empathy for the less fortunate.

 


 :amen:
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Offline roamer_1

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He only speaks out against Christians who will not adopt Liberal Socialism and Hedonism as good and holy.

That is how it looks to me too.

Quote
When he goes to live in a third world slum like I have to care for the caste of persecuted, suffering and impoverished people who face death daily for their faith - THEN he will have a bit more authority to condemn Christians as having no humility, compassion or empathy.

Even close to home - the lions share of actual charity is accomplished by the churches and by Christian organizations and ministries - including ministering to homosexuals, and helping them clean up from the destruction that homosexuality has wrought in their lives.

Quote
His whole focus is condemning those Christians who will not condone, accept, praise and participate in deviant, abominable and wicked behavior.

It is certainly wicked - twisting the scriptures - to declare Yeshua in terms of 'humility, compassion and empathy for the less fortunate' while rejecting Yeshua's very words to do and keep Torah... to go and SIN no more... Sin is violation of Torah, so Yeshua is saying to go and keep the Torah of His Father. You know, all that OT stuff that @Jazzhead  and his kind reject...

Mat 5:17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 10:44:34 pm by roamer_1 »

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As always....youdababe!  Love reading your replies!

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Axe!  I wish you posted more!  How are you doing?

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Hateful?  No way.  I'm a live and let live guy,  but the usual suspects on this board despise my neighbors and see no moral issue with the sick and the poor dying with no access to health insurance.   I speak out against Christians who've forgotten Christ's teachings of humility, compassion and empathy for the less fortunate. 

@Jazzhead

You have to tell me who I despise, because I've forgotten.  Clue me in.



Offline Axeslinger

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@Axeslinger

Axe!  I wish you posted more!  How are you doing?

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Awe shucks... :beer:

I'm well, thx.   I post as I can.   Husband, lacrosse coach, Boy Scout leader, work, cabin I built myself in Virginia....only so much time in a day!

But hey I just crawled all the way up under sneakypetes skin  earlier today, so... :shrug:
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 08:23:47 pm by Axeslinger »
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Offline Sighlass

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Good response.  Good post. 

Thanks but perhaps you will not be so thrilled when I mention it was reserved for marriage between a man a woman only. Not today's mix and match crap.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 09:26:04 pm by Sighlass »
Exodus 18:21 Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders over ....

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@CatherineofAragon

Awe shucks... :beer:

I'm well, thx.   I post as I can.   Husband, lacrosse coach, Boy Scout leader, work, cabin I built myself in Virginia....only so much time in a day!

But hey I just crawled all the way up under sneakypetes skin  earlier today, so... :shrug:

@Axeslinger

Lol, I totally get it.  Real life comes first.  Glad you're here when you can make it.   :beer: