Author Topic: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back  (Read 5973 times)

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Offline TomSea

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #75 on: April 11, 2017, 04:53:28 pm »
Others have had ancestors in the Confederate Army, not just some posters. I may not agree with Nikki but it is no big deal to me.  It's her state, they have to do the best thing for that state, politics often involves compromise.

I would never denigrate the Confederate Flag, Union Flag as a matter of routine.

She's a Republican, she's not a Democrat.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 05:01:41 pm by TomSea »

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #76 on: April 11, 2017, 05:30:29 pm »
Well, right.  But given that's what the average person equates it with, that's what the symbol has come to stand for.  That's kind of the point.
No, actually, the point is that the average person wouldn't know the political flag of the Confederate States of America if they were wrapped in it.

Over the years it points out the enemy is ignorance, not a political stance taken over 150 years ago.

Slavery has been dead under the Constitution for nearly twice as long as it existed. Only the fables permitted by ignorance of all the issues of the day permit the rancor toward a few square feet of cloth.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline WhatWouldReaganDo

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Down the centuries, you have slurred the meaning of the words, "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty, to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution". These words and the words that follow, were not written only for the Yangs, but for the Kohms as well! They must apply to everyone, or they mean nothing! - James Tiberius Kirk

Offline catfish1957

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #78 on: April 11, 2017, 05:32:24 pm »
Well, maybe I should just get one of these:



But my ancestors didn't fight in the legislature. Rather, they fought on the battlefield to defend the South from invasion, under a flag more like this:



And some under one which looked like this



And even a couple who fought under this one:



The average person equates one of those battle flags with 'slavery' which was a political issue. They generally don't know the 'stars and bars' (that first flag)  from a hole in their head. The rest are battle flags.

Thought you might enjoy this.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-3WAhbulFs
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 05:32:47 pm by catfish1957 »
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2017, 05:38:23 pm »
That, I'd reckon, is entirely subject to where that 'average person' lives.
Half the country lives in cities. The average person has an anatomy I won't discuss here, but think about things half of the population has two of and you get the idea. And the average person is dumber than about half of the population.

 If your ancestors were here and European in descent, chances are they were on one side of that conflict or the other. If they were of African descent, that also varied.
If they were not here, you didn't have a dog in that fight, unless your ancestors were trading with one side or the other.
The popular fable was boiled down for me when a young fellow summed up his knowledge of the War Between the States as being when 'the bad guys wore grey and the good guys wore blue and the good guys won'.
Yes, he had graduated from High School and had taken (and passed) American History.

Ignorance is the problem, and that penumbra is growing.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline TomSea

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #80 on: April 11, 2017, 05:40:01 pm »
This shows again, Governors have to actually make some hard decisions.

Vs. the Senators who are able to take any position they want without it usually affecting anything.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #81 on: April 11, 2017, 05:42:43 pm »
Southern States own declarations of secession make it clear, they were fighting to keep slavery in force.

Of course.   Sure,  individual soldiers and their commanders fought for reasons of patriotism and honor, but the politicians fought to uphold slavery.

Yes,  the CBF was a battle flag, a flag carried by soldiers rather than politicians, but it has evolved into a political symbol, not a benign symbol of "heritage".   It was defiantly raised by anti-Reconstruction politicians to fly over statehouses, schools and courthouses,  a symbol of political resistance (and, of course, an implicit if not explicit affront to African Americans).   

Nikki Haley courageously acted to help take this symbol of racism and oppression down from its official perches.   Let it remain a private trinket or talisman only.   
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 05:43:53 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #82 on: April 11, 2017, 05:54:25 pm »
Yes,  the CBF was a battle flag, a flag carried by soldiers rather than politicians, but it has evolved into a political symbol, not a benign symbol of "heritage".   

It is both, and it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.   Someone upthread posted a Lynryd Skynyrd video, and that's actually on point.  I'll bet the vast majority of people cheering at that concert had no clue as to why some southerners started flying it again in the 50's.  To them, it's about NASCAR, country music, guns, and actually patriotism, which many of them see as out of fashion in the rest of the country.  And Lynyrd Skynyrd.  I've known enough of those people to "get" how they think about it.

But on the flip side, it can't be said that it is "wrong" when others identify it with slavery.  The Articles of Secession are a pretty-well known counter to arguments that the war wasn't about slavery.  And if I was black, I wouldn't feel overly fond of that flag.  So personally, I think that out of respect to our fellow Americans, that flag shouldn't be flown on government buildings.

I'll say this -- I don't think that flag is necessarily suggestive of racism when flown in the south, by southerners.  On the other hand, when Yankees in the north fly it....those people I don't trust.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #83 on: April 11, 2017, 06:03:54 pm »
Southern States own declarations of secession make it clear, they were fighting to keep slavery in force.
Yeah, right.
That, Tom is the first flag. Like I said, my ancestors didn't fight in the legislature.
In fact, until the legislature of the state had been reorganized during the occupation, it did not get to vote on a bill of secession. 
Every man in the Confederate Armies and the Confederate Navy had their own reasons for going to war. Most because they were being invaded. My kin left Maryland to fight for the South, because Maryland had been invaded by the armies of Massachusetts and Pennsylvania, with the blessing of the selfsame Federal Government which was supposed to prevent such things, which had suspended Habeas Corpus and later established (Federal) Martial Law over the state.
While the vote on secession failed, having been held in heavily union sympathetic Fredrick, MD instead of the capital of Annapolis (far more southern sympathy), it came mere days after the VA House of Burgess voted to secede. It is unlikely that that news had reached the legislature when the vote was held.

BTW, the Emancipation Proclamation did not free the slaves (about half of the black population in MD, the other half were free).

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_in_the_American_Civil_War
Quote
Those who voted for Maryland to remain in the Union did not at first contemplate the emancipation of Maryland's many slaves, or indeed those of the Confederacy. In March 1862 the Maryland Assembly passed a series of resolutions, stating that:

    This war is prosecuted by the Nation with but one object, that, namely, of a restoration of the Union just as it was when the rebellion broke out. The rebellious States are to be brought back to their places in the Union, without change or diminution of their constitutional rights.[68]

In other words, as far as Marylanders were concerned, the war was being fought over Union, not over slavery. And, because Maryland had remained in the Union, the state was not included under the Emancipation Proclamation of January 1, 1863, which declared that all slaves within the Confederacy (but not those in border states like Maryland) would henceforth be free. It was not until 1864 that a constitutional convention was held which would address the issue of slavery in Maryland.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #84 on: April 11, 2017, 06:34:39 pm »
It is both, and it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.   Someone upthread posted a Lynryd Skynyrd video, and that's actually on point.  I'll bet the vast majority of people cheering at that concert had no clue as to why some southerners started flying it again in the 50's.  To them, it's about NASCAR, country music, guns, and actually patriotism, which many of them see as out of fashion in the rest of the country.  And Lynyrd Skynyrd.  I've known enough of those people to "get" how they think about it.

No, it's more about defiance and way-of-life. NASCAR, guns, country music and etcetera are merely parts of the whole, really having little to do with the truth of it. It is a social and political 'Kiss my Country Ass'.

It is that defiance , way-of-life, and life of adversity that is symbolized in the Rebel Flag.
Y'all can demean it, deface it, and reinterpret it any damn way you like... But there is no more powerful symbol of righteous defiance in this country.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #85 on: April 11, 2017, 06:36:18 pm »

Ignorance is the problem, and that penumbra is growing.

Ain't that a fact.

Offline catfish1957

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #86 on: April 11, 2017, 06:56:09 pm »
No, it's more about defiance and way-of-life. NASCAR, guns, country music and etcetera are merely parts of the whole, really having little to do with the truth of it. It is a social and political 'Kiss my Country Ass'.

It is that defiance , way-of-life, and life of adversity that is symbolized in the Rebel Flag.
Y'all can demean it, deface it, and reinterpret it any damn way you like... But there is no more powerful symbol of righteous defiance in this country.

 :beer:

Simply translated....  I am a  redneck, and if you don't like it....    ______________
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline EC

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #87 on: April 11, 2017, 06:57:44 pm »
:beer:

Simply translated....  I am a  redneck, and if you don't like it....    ______________


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJixs2FoZ_Y

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2017, 07:06:15 pm »
:beer:

Simply translated....  I am a  redneck, and if you don't like it....    ______________


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZOozDHL0LA

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #89 on: April 11, 2017, 07:07:21 pm »
No, it's more about defiance and way-of-life. NASCAR, guns, country music and etcetera are merely parts of the whole, really having little to do with the truth of it. It is a social and political 'Kiss my Country Ass'.

You're right.  That's a better way of stating it.  I tried to get to that with my comment about patriotism, but that wasn't i]quite[/i] it.  Defiance/independence (which I do consider a quintessentially American sentiment) is a better way of putting it.

Quote
It is that defiance , way-of-life, and life of adversity that is symbolized in the Rebel Flag.  Y'all can demean it, deface it, and reinterpret it any damn way you like... But there is no more powerful symbol of righteous defiance in this country.

I can't argue with any of that.  Just saying that to other people, that flag means something, different.  And they're not really "wrong" either.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #90 on: April 11, 2017, 07:08:54 pm »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZOozDHL0LA

Their best song was Simple Man.

As good as Skynyrd was, the Allmans were the true music deities from the South.

Offline catfish1957

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #91 on: April 11, 2017, 07:20:56 pm »
Their best song was Simple Man.

As good as Skynyrd was, the Allmans were the true music deities from the South.

And strangely the most anti-2nd Amendment rock song in history is by Skynyrd (Saturday Night Special)

I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #92 on: April 11, 2017, 07:24:48 pm »
I can't argue with any of that.  Just saying that to other people, that flag means something, different.  And they're not really "wrong" either.

Why yes, they are wrong. The ones who get to determine the meaning of a flag are those that are flying it.
There's blood on that flag. And that blood runs deep in the South. And the spring of it welled up and flowed into Texas, and came west with the cattle up into the heartland, and beyond into the Rockies. Dixie owns it, and it's hers... But that blood opened the West, kith and kin. Don't y'all ever forget that we know what that flag is for, and we'll come a runnin.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 07:34:40 pm by roamer_1 »

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #93 on: April 11, 2017, 07:40:24 pm »
Why yes, they are wrong. The ones who get to determine the meaning of a flag are those that are flying it.
There's blood on that flag. And that blood runs deep in the South. And the spring of it welled up and flowed into Texas, and came west with the cattle up into the heartland, and beyond into the Rockies. Dixie owns it, and it's hers... But that blood opened the West, kith and kin. Don't y'all ever forget that we know what that flag is for, and we'll come a runnin.
Yep. The largest one I ever saw was in Wyoming, out in the Red Desert.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline TomSea

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #94 on: April 11, 2017, 08:54:59 pm »
Why yes, they are wrong. The ones who get to determine the meaning of a flag are those that are flying it.
There's blood on that flag. And that blood runs deep in the South. And the spring of it welled up and flowed into Texas, and came west with the cattle up into the heartland, and beyond into the Rockies. Dixie owns it, and it's hers... But that blood opened the West, kith and kin. Don't y'all ever forget that we know what that flag is for, and we'll come a runnin.

Yeah, and it stands for slavery and nothing's going to change that including some emotional southern rant, it stands for slavery,  own it. I own it and I had relatives that fought for the South. You don't want to own it, the woman governor who you all have been putting down has more hutzpah than ya'll.

Offline catfish1957

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #95 on: April 11, 2017, 08:57:51 pm »
Yeah, and it stands for slavery and nothing's going to change that including some emotional southern rant, it stands for slavery,  own it. I own it and I had relatives that fought for the South. You don't want to own it, the woman governor who you all have been putting down has more hutzpah than ya'll.

Troll alert
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline TomSea

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #96 on: April 11, 2017, 08:58:29 pm »
I was looking for the Skyrnyrd song from earlier, let's not forget this:

Even Lynyrd Skynyrd wanted to stop flying the Confederate flag
http://www.nola.com/music/index.ssf/2015/06/even_lynyrd_skynyrd_wanted_to.html

Offline TomSea

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #97 on: April 11, 2017, 08:59:39 pm »
As usual, those criticizing Haley are Cruz supporters and Governors actually have to make hard decisions versus the Senators who can for the most part avoid such. Easy to talk when your decisions are not far reaching.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #98 on: April 11, 2017, 08:59:59 pm »
Yeah, and it stands for slavery and nothing's going to change that including some emotional southern rant, it stands for slavery,  own it. I own it and I had relatives that fought for the South. You don't want to own it, the woman governor who you all have been putting down has more hutzpah than ya'll.

I cleared my ignore list after the election... You were the first on it then, and now again. So apropos.
KMA.

Offline TomSea

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Re: Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back
« Reply #99 on: April 11, 2017, 09:01:51 pm »
Don't forget the lynchings, don't forget Jim Crow, don't forget anything.