Now That She’s ‘Presidential,’ Nikki Haley Better Watch Her Back

[Frank Cannon]

Well, Bull Run, Ball's Bluff, and Camp Douglas in Chicago pretty much encapsulates how unready the North was as well.

Unready? Didn't the North win? I'll have to look that up.

[catfish1957]

If you ever play Civilization or any 4x game or even RTS...

The side that is disadvantage economically is bound to lose. Only a matter of time. After the initial opening, the South was bound to lose.

Very True, giving credence to the amazing skills of the CSA military (Lee/Jackson/Johnston) until 1862.  The overall war was unwinable But.....

Amazingly, several historians state that if Gettysburg had gone wrong for the North, Lee would have made a right turn toward DC, and  the end result would have probably ended up being a negotiated settlement as two nations.

Again, for all of our sakes the end result ended up being the best.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Unready? Didn't the North win? I'll have to look that up.

Yes.  But the North was still unready as hell to fight a war, which was the point I was addressing.  It really wasn't readiness that defeated the South.  It was long-term disadvantages.

Okay, I'm a history geek, and can't help nitpicking on this kind of thing.....

[Sanguine]

If you ever play Civilization or any 4x game or even RTS...

The side that is disadvantage economically is bound to lose. Only a matter of time. After the initial opening, the South was bound to lose.

Hmmm.  I question that. There are several mentions here of the Texas Revolution which was fought on a shoestring and a prayer on the Texicans' side.  Ditto the American Revolution.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Hmmm.  I question that. There are several mentions here of the Texas Revolution which was fought on a shoestring and a prayer on the Texicans' side.  Ditto the American Revolution.

In assymetrical warfare, then the bigger side can lose because they decide it isn't worth it. But the Americans didn't invade the UK. Texans, I don't believe, invaded and conquered Mexico. (I think the US army did, later)

[EC]

But the Americans didn't invade the UK.

Actually, you did. Unfortunately your crew raided a pub and got too drunk to do much damage to the ships in harbour.

[catfish1957]

Hmmm.  I question that. There are several mentions here of the Texas Revolution which was fought on a shoestring and a prayer on the Texicans' side.  Ditto the American Revolution.

History junkie here too Sanguine.

The only thing saving the US Revolution was the UK had war fronts with us, the Netherlands, France, Spain, and India.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Actually, you did. Unfortunately your crew raided a pub and got too drunk to do much damage to the ships in harbour.

Well I'll be damned, you're right:

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/john-paul-jones-leads-american-raid-on-whitehaven-england

Had no idea! 

[catfish1957]

Well I'll be damned, you're right:

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/john-paul-jones-leads-american-raid-on-whitehaven-england

Had no idea! 

And was heard yelling.....

"I've just begun to Drink!!!!!"

[Frank Cannon]

Yes.  But the North was still unready as hell to fight a war, which was the point I was addressing.  It really wasn't readiness that defeated the South.  It was long-term disadvantages.

Okay, I'm a history geek, and can't help nitpicking on this kind of thing.....

I can't help nit picking that winners win and losers lose. Trying to claim the North was unprepared for war when they kicked the shit out of the South is absurd. You are mistaking incidental set backs with an overall successful event.

[TomSea]

Texas's independence was fought too, for slavery;

Texas is a minority-majority state now, in the long run, 20 years on let's see how it looks.  It's going to be an interesting contrast to that fight for independence. We'll wonder who really won.

[catfish1957]

Texas's independence was fought too, for slavery;

Texas is a minority-majority state now, in the long run, 20 years on let's see how it looks.  It's going to be an interesting contrast to that fight for independence. We'll wonder who really won.

Did someone fart?

[Sanguine]

Texas's independence was fought too, for slavery;

Texas is a minority-majority state now, in the long run, 20 years on let's see how it looks.  It's going to be an interesting contrast to that fight for independence. We'll wonder who really won.

No, it wasn't.

[catfish1957]

I can't help nit picking that winners win and losers lose. Trying to claim the North was unprepared for war when they kicked the shit out of the South is absurd. You are mistaking incidental set backs with an overall successful event.

As I stated a few posts back....  You do realize that if 3 days in July 1863 had been different  this vast underdog may have brought this conflict to a stalemate?  What would have been your comment then?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Did someone fart?

[roamer_1]

Actually, you did. Unfortunately your crew raided a pub and got too drunk to do much damage to the ships in harbour.

God bless rednecks.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Well I'll be damned, you're right:

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/john-paul-jones-leads-american-raid-on-whitehaven-england

Had no idea! 

John Paul Jones is also the only Russian Admiral buried in the U.S..  And his crypt is cool as hell.

[Smokin Joe]

I see conservatives objecting all the time to the flying of "issue" flags like the rainbow flag from public buildings.

Of course it does -- I wouldn't dispute that.  I think the vast majority of southerners who support flying the confederate flag are not racists, and do it for reasons of heritage.  But at the same time, I couldn't find fault if a black Americans is offended by that flag, because defending slavery was a significant part of what the Confederacy stood for.  So I really don't have a problem with the flag being displayed in the specific context of honoring the war veterans, etc..  But I don't think it belongs on current government buildings.  It's up to the folks of each state, obviously, but since we're discussing Haley....

My point is that the flag implicitly honors "the cause", whatever that is/was.  Now to you, "the cause" was all those other things you mentioned.  To some other South Carolinians, particularly some who are black, it may well represent an attempt to keep them in bondage.  Both perspectives have merit depending on your POV.

Now, I can understand why her decision ticked off some southerners.  I can also understand why some other southerners supported her decision, and her doing that certainly doesn't make me, as an Ohioan, less (or more) likely to support her.

Well, maybe I should just get one of these:



But my ancestors didn't fight in the legislature. Rather, they fought on the battlefield to defend the South from invasion, under a flag more like this:



And some under one which looked like this



And even a couple who fought under this one:



The average person equates one of those battle flags with 'slavery' which was a political issue. They generally don't know the 'stars and bars' (that first flag)  from a hole in their head. The rest are battle flags.

[catfish1957]

John Paul Jones is also the only Russian Admiral buried in the U.S..

Uhhh...

I think JPJ was Scottish and immigrated to US in 1770's.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

The average person equates one of those battle flags with 'slavery' which was a political issue. They generally don't know the 'stars and bars' (that first flag)  from a hole in their head. The rest are battle flags.

Well, right.  But given that's what the average person equates it with, that's what the symbol has come to stand for.  That's kind of the point.

[roamer_1]

Well, right.  But given that's what the average person equates it with, that's what the symbol has come to stand for.  That's kind of the point.

That, I'd reckon, is entirely subject to where that 'average person' lives.

[Sanguine]

Well, right.  But given that's what the average person equates it with, that's what the symbol has come to stand for.  That's kind of the point.

The "average person" thinks we are a democracy and that leftists are liberal.  I'm not sure I find that argument compelling.

[Cripplecreek]

That, I'd reckon, is entirely subject to where that 'average person' lives.

After my mother died I picked up her kindle and read the autobiography of Frederick Douglass and Booker T Washington back to back. Boy that will make your brain squirm from trying to reconcile the wildly different perspectives.

[roamer_1]

After my mother died I picked up her kindle and read the autobiography of Frederick Douglass and Booker T Washington back to back. Boy that will make your brain squirm from trying to reconcile the wildly different perspectives.

I dunno. What I do know is that the 'average person' around here would have a different perspective about what that Rebel flag stands for - Different from what others here would brand it with. As to which is actually 'different', I would say my view on the Confederate Flag is shared by country folks pretty well across the US (Far NE excepted)

[TomSea]

Well, maybe I should just get one of these:



But my ancestors didn't fight in the legislature. Rather, they fought on the battlefield to defend the South from invasion, under a flag more like this:



And some under one which looked like this



And even a couple who fought under this one:



The average person equates one of those battle flags with 'slavery' which was a political issue. They generally don't know the 'stars and bars' (that first flag)  from a hole in their head. The rest are battle flags.

Southern States own declarations of secession make it clear, they were fighting to keep slavery in force.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp

Yeah, right.