Trump accused the Freedom Caucus of 'saving' Obamacare. Its leader said it's not over.

[bigheadfred]

You can't reason with a vampire.

With a few exceptions, like the FC, Congress is merrily rolling along on it's do nothing path. And things won't change until they run over enough people to get the rest up in arms. Literally.

People who want to go the reargaurd route, which is the majority, are lost in a storm, in their fear of running off the edge of the cliff in the storm, they are running full circle right for it.

Congress has stepped outside the purview of the American people. Since this place was founded on the concept of "We The People" they are no longer a part of that. They don't represent me. Neither do the zombies or vampires running the circle.

I think they are under reporting the facts on health care. Or grossly misrepresenting them.  IMO, there is a big group of people WITH insurance that are praying nothing bad happens to them. Because of the way policies are structured/priced, added expenditure towards it, the things not covered, will break the bank in their paycheck to paycheck world.

There are 12 people where I work. Including myself. Two recently dropped their insurance because of the rate increases. One young married has some because his wife works. He told me they are on the line. One other has enough Indian in him to go to the Rez doctor. The rest of us have none. My employer talks to a large number of people who are self employed in the trades. Of the few of those that have insurance, they report paying too much and there is little left for other things.

So if your expenditures are such that all you do is work and pay, then that, IMO, is slavery. We are a nation of slaves. And I spit on every person unwilling to break the chains.

If Mordor ceased to exist in one brilliant flash I would be of good cheer.

[Emjay]

Nonsense. Allowing it to stand is acquiescence. To participate in making it more palatable ensures it will be there for our grandchildren and beyond. It has become 'part of the furniture' already to many of y'all.

And for all you'd care to say about half-loaves and such, the first time the Dems are back in power, it will be right back where it was, and probably even worse, because the heavy lifting of it will already be done - because we didn't have the cajones to stand up and call a spade a spade.

Appeasement is never going to work. your argument has been the norm all of my life, and it never has worked.
Dems do NOTHING to appease. They run roughshod, by hook or by crook, and get what they want.
Republicans are lily-livered cowards, with very few notable exceptions, who bend over backwards to appease, which s why I am a Republican no longer.

Knock yourself out. All you will do is secure single-payer for generations to come. And once again, Republicans will have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

I'll have *nothing* to do with it.

I believe there was a character like you in the Bible.  He washed his hands of the whole thing.

Maybe that's being a lily livered coward?

[XenaLee]

You can't reason with a vampire.

With a few exceptions, like the FC, Congress is merrily rolling along on it's do nothing path. And things won't change until they run over enough people to get the rest up in arms. Literally.

People who want to go the reargaurd route, which is the majority, are lost in a storm, in their fear of running off the edge of the cliff in the storm, they are running full circle right for it.

Congress has stepped outside the purview of the American people. Since this place was founded on the concept of "We The People" they are no longer a part of that. They don't represent me. Neither do the zombies or vampires running the circle.

I think they are under reporting the facts on health care. Or grossly misrepresenting them.  IMO, there is a big group of people WITH insurance that are praying nothing bad happens to them. Because of the way policies are structured/priced, added expenditure towards it, the things not covered, will break the bank in their paycheck to paycheck world.

There are 12 people where I work. Including myself. Two recently dropped their insurance because of the rate increases. One young married has some because his wife works. He told me they are on the line. One other has enough Indian in him to go to the Rez doctor. The rest of us have none. My employer talks to a large number of people who are self employed in the trades. Of the few of those that have insurance, they report paying too much and there is little left for other things.

So if your expenditures are such that all you do is work and pay, then that, IMO, is slavery. We are a nation of slaves. And I spit on every person unwilling to break the chains.

If Mordor ceased to exist in one brilliant flash I would be of good cheer.

ObamaCare was intended as a form of slavery.  The ultimate "gotcha by the short hairs" power grab by DC leftists.  Which is why only a FULL REPEAL will reverse this travesty against Americans. 

[XenaLee]

That's bullhit, Bill, I and my family were among the early casualties of Obamacare. We still pay out of pocket for everything, because the insurance carrier said "hell no" to carrying health insurance under the ACA. They're a major insurer, and I had had insurance with them for over 20 years.  Maybe you'd like to talk with my grandchildren? All 13 of them are 'living the dream' thanks to the ACA, including the two we are raising, and they know it will take time for things to get back to normal after it is gone or they will lose that freedom. So get with the program and repeal it. They know full well where I stand on this and why. They'd rather have their birthright than a mass of pottage.
Quit pulling the tooth a tiny bit at a time, and get the damned job done so it can start healing. Well, Bill, that makes two of us. I can't understand why anyone in Congress who had voted before to repeal this crap would balk now. I can't understand why in the Hell people who claim to be against this crap aren't pushing just as hard as we are for full repeal, instead of pushing back against it and whining about how WE are the ones who supposedly are perpetrating the very disaster YOU, by the minor and ineffective nature of your gestures would continue. Git 'er done! Oh, Hell yeah! That's what we are advocating, no half measures, no baby steps, quit pissing around and repeal it.
Your version of 'as hard as we can' is a pretty lousy stopping distance....as in never.  Like dragging your feet on a motorcycle doing 90. It isn't happening. If you want to stop going down this road, SHUT. IT. DOWN. That is what we are trying to do. The Federal Government has no business doing this, has usurped the power, and we want it back, not just for us, but for our children's children's children and, incidentally, yours too. We just don't want to have to wait for our great great grandchildren to recover that liberty.  That's a textbook quagmire. The only winners are the feather merchants and arms sellers but the war never ends. It's invading Japan instead of dropping the bomb. That may pass for "strategery", but something decisive would end it. Less suffering in the long run, so get with the program, and drag those liberal pubbies along with you.You are content with crumbs, from your own table, and call that 'free'. Really? Think about that.
We said to turn right, the 'driver' turned left, we try to get to the wheel, and the rest of you stand in the way. We say stop the bus, and you guys want to keep going.

How are we anything but just along for the ride?

You may want to go off the cliff slower, but that doesn't make the drop any shorter. The only reason for delay is to kick that can down the road and hope the benefits don't run out before you take the big dirtnap. At least have either the guts to stand and fight for repeal or the balls to own the results. If you think I'm enjoying this ride, I have another think for you. But I am under no illusions that the 'moderates' (that's a liberal, only in RINOspeak) are the ones driving--either that, or asleep at the wheel. They finally have both the houses of Congress and the White House, as we were told they needed, and despite the votes to repeal when it would never be signed, now REFUSE to vote on repeal.

Sorry, we did our part, and if y'all are having troubles with us reminding people that it's time to get the job done, well, whose fault is that? We delivered. Don't blame us for your collective failure to toe the line.

Ditto that.  ALL of that!   

[Maj. Bill Martin]

That's bullhit, Bill, I and my family were among the early casualties of Obamacare. We still pay out of pocket for everything, because the insurance carrier said "hell no" to carrying health insurance under the ACA. They're a major insurer, and I had had insurance with them for over 20 years.  Maybe you'd like to talk with my grandchildren? All 13 of them are 'living the dream' thanks to the ACA, including the two we are raising, and they know it will take time for things to get back to normal after it is gone or they will lose that freedom.

You'll get no argument from me that it was a horrible bill.  My point is that the all or nothing approach ignores that something in the middle may not have resulted in you losing your insurance.  That does not mean that "nothing" isn't still the preferred option.  But if that is not attainable politically, then a weakened version of it may result fewer people being hurt.  And that is better than nothing. 

So get with the program and repeal it.

You can't repeal it.  I can't repeal it.   It takes 218 Representatives and 50 Senators plus Pence to repeal it.  If the votes are actually there, right now when it really counts as opposed to symbolic votes back in 2015, then great.   And before you tell me that those votes for repeal are actually there, please note that the head of the Freedom Caucus has come out and indicated that with two specific changes, the HFC would vote for the AHCA.  He wouldn't be doing that if he knew the votes are there for a full repeal.  He knows he has to compromise.

So let's got back to your insistence on a full repeal, or nothing.  If the HFC gets its two changes to the AHCA, will you oppose that bill just because some of ObamaCare will still remain?

[Emjay]

You'll get no argument from me that it was a horrible bill.  My point is that the all or nothing approach ignores that something in the middle may not have resulted in you losing your insurance.  That does not mean that "nothing" isn't still the preferred option.  But if that is not attainable politically, then a weakened version of it may result fewer people being hurt.  And that is better than nothing. 

You can't repeal it.  I can't repeal it.   It takes 218 Representatives and 50 Senators plus Pence to repeal it.  If the votes are actually there, right now when it really counts as opposed to symbolic votes back in 2015, then great.   And before you tell me that those votes for repeal are actually there, please note that the head of the Freedom Caucus has come out and indicated that with two specific changes, the HFC would vote for the AHCA.  He wouldn't be doing that if he knew the votes are there for a full repeal.  He knows he has to compromise.

So let's got back to your insistence on a full repeal, or nothing.  If the HFC gets its two changes to the AHCA, will you oppose that bill just because some of ObamaCare will still remain?

I hesitate to criticize someone whose suffered so much under Obamacare but as The Major says, the votes are there for a compromise plan that would do a lot to relieve your current problems.

It's the price we pay for living in a democracy.  218 people from all parts of the country have to agree and not sure how strong the leadership in the house is right now.

I just wonder.  I mean if Hillary had been elected we would have full speed ahead Obamacare that might die on its on vine but would never be repealed.

The minute we have hope, some people give up.  It's stopping short of the finish line when you are close enough to see it.

[bigheadfred]

I hesitate to criticize someone whose suffered so much under Obamacare but as The Major says, the votes are there for a compromise plan that would do a lot to relieve your current problems.

It's the price we pay for living in a democracy.  218 people from all parts of the country have to agree and not sure how strong the leadership in the house is right now.

I just wonder.  I mean if Hillary had been elected we would have full speed ahead Obamacare that might die on its on vine but would never be repealed.

The minute we have hope, some people give up.  It's stopping short of the finish line when you are close enough to see it.

@Maj. Bill Martin

I could more readily agree with your outlook if I thought the endgame was better private insurance overall. But I don't think it is. I think it is single payer big government crap they want. All of them. And I object. In full.

[INVAR]

It's the price we pay for living in a democracy.

Yes indeed it is.  We are paying the price of four wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner.

It's a shame because we were founded as a Representative Republic, not a democracy - but indeed now we have devolved ourselves into a Socialist Democracy by hanging ourselves around the neck with the doctrines of Marx and Engels and accepting that which is unnatural to our foundations as a permanent fixture.  It's instructive to watch everyone surrender their liberty for hoped-for scraps of pieces of what was taken from them in the noble name of compromise, fairness and equality.

"Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." - John Adams

[DB]

I hesitate to criticize someone whose suffered so much under Obamacare but as The Major says, the votes are there for a compromise plan that would do a lot to relieve your current problems.

It's the price we pay for living in a democracy.  218 people from all parts of the country have to agree and not sure how strong the leadership in the house is right now.

I just wonder.  I mean if Hillary had been elected we would have full speed ahead Obamacare that might die on its on vine but would never be repealed.

The minute we have hope, some people give up.  It's stopping short of the finish line when you are close enough to see it.

Hope is no substitute for reality. The only "finish line" in sight is Republicans endorsing the vast majority of Obamacare while they tweak around the edges calling it their own. The result is they will own Obamacare and all that follows.

Now that it is accepted by both parties that the federal government has the authority to manage everyone ones healthcare there will be no going back. In addition this will only open the door to further such control of our lives. There are no constraints/boundaries left anymore limiting what the federal government can do. It was never supposed to be this way. Your children will pay dearly for it all assuming they work.

Once you've allowed yourself to be sold, all that remains is for how much.

[INVAR]

Once you've allowed yourself to be sold, all that remains is for how much.

Wow.  Powerful brevity.  Encapsulated the entire argument against compromise in one sentence.

Thank you.

[Cyber Liberty]

Wow.  Powerful brevity.  Encapsulated the entire argument against compromise in one sentence.

Thank you.

I like it.  @DB , I swiped it for my sig line, giving proper attribution.

[Smokin Joe]

You'll get no argument from me that it was a horrible bill.  My point is that the all or nothing approach ignores that something in the middle may not have resulted in you losing your insurance.  That does not mean that "nothing" isn't still the preferred option.  But if that is not attainable politically, then a weakened version of it may result fewer people being hurt.  And that is better than nothing. 

You can't repeal it.  I can't repeal it.   It takes 218 Representatives and 50 Senators plus Pence to repeal it.  If the votes are actually there, right now when it really counts as opposed to symbolic votes back in 2015, then great.   And before you tell me that those votes for repeal are actually there, please note that the head of the Freedom Caucus has come out and indicated that with two specific changes, the HFC would vote for the AHCA.  He wouldn't be doing that if he knew the votes are there for a full repeal.  He knows he has to compromise.

So let's got back to your insistence on a full repeal, or nothing.  If the HFC gets its two changes to the AHCA, will you oppose that bill just because some of ObamaCare will still remain?

The problem with a half step is that that will get a check mark next to that, and the thundering herd will move on, until the Democrats come back and load the wagon again.

Unfortunately, it will also remove many of the objections people have and water down the  the entire idea that THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY TO BE IN THE HEALTHCARE BUSINESS WHATSOEVER.
I will continue to advocate for full repeal, knowing full well that those who have the horn out of their particular ox will settle back in their chains and be happy with that--in fact will se it as "victory", when the loss is a matter of principle, a precedent that can be expanded on at any time the political winds change direction.

If I had a shred of confidence that the GOP would continue to attempt to reverse the notion that the Federal Government had the authority to demand we buy a product and fine/tax us all for not doing so, simply because we are breathing, I might be less recalcitrant, but I have little faith that will be the case.

Failure to fully repeal Obamacare only ensures there will be a sequel.

[Smokin Joe]

I hesitate to criticize someone whose suffered so much under Obamacare but as The Major says, the votes are there for a compromise plan that would do a lot to relieve your current problems.

It's the price we pay for living in a democracy. 

It isn't a "democracy', emjay, it's a Republic.

218 people from all parts of the country have to agree and not sure how strong the leadership in the house is right now.

Strong leadership or not, the direction it is headed has been the problem for decades.

I just wonder.  I mean if Hillary had been elected we would have full speed ahead Obamacare that might die on its on vine but would never be repealed.

This isn't a POTUS issue, the POTUS will sign or veto. It has to get to this desk first, and that's on the Congress, more specifically, the GOP who so readily voted to repeal when they knew it would be vetoed (but, still, ensuring their own (re)election by that vote or stated intent) who, now that the POTUS would likely sign a Bill for repeal, will not vote to do so.

The minute we have hope, some people give up.  It's stopping short of the finish line when you are close enough to see it.

Precisely as I see it. Kill Obamacare. Repeal it. Or have yet another instance in a long history of the GOP of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. As for changing it, we rebuilt Japan after unconditional surrender, we didn't tinker around the edges. Had anyone suggested the latter, they'd have been jailed. That was also the last war we had a decisive victory, despite the tremendous performance of our military, because the politicians did not have the resolve to get the job done.

[Silver Pines]

@Maj. Bill Martin

I could more readily agree with your outlook if I thought the endgame was better private insurance overall. But I don't think it is. I think it is single payer big government crap they want. All of them. And I object. In full.

@bigheadfred

A Trump supporter "in academia" is already urging Trump to go for single payer.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,256424.0.html

[bigheadfred]

@bigheadfred

A Trump supporter "in academia" is already urging Trump to go for single payer.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,256424.0.html

Here it comes. So predictable. They'll all be aboard soon. And reality not long after that.

[INVAR]

@bigheadfred

A Trump supporter "in academia" is already urging Trump to go for single payer.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,256424.0.html

Well since the 'pragmatists' and 'Good-Trumps-Perfect' compromisers in the GOP and in the country at-large have already sold out to the notion that government has a role in administrating, running and parceling out our healthcare - the haggling over how much Single Payer we must be subject to is all that is left us.

[bigheadfred]

Well since the 'pragmatists' and 'Good-Trumps-Perfect' compromisers in the GOP and in the country at-large have already sold out to the notion that government has a role in administrating, running and parceling out our healthcare - the haggling over how much Single Payer we must be subject to is all that is left us.

the haggling over how much Single Payer we must be subject to is all that is left us

The new tax percent to pay for it.

[Smokin Joe]

the haggling over how much Single Payer we must be subject to is all that is left us

The new tax percent to pay for it.

@bigheadfred @INVAR

In other words, as was pointed out up thread, it isn't haggling over the act, just how much it will cost.

[bigheadfred]

@bigheadfred @INVAR

In other words, as was pointed out up thread, it isn't haggling over the act, just how much it will cost.

The new payroll tax. And maybe some added sin tax.

[Smokin Joe]

The new payroll tax. And maybe some added sin tax.

Well, considering the wages of sin...they can take 50%. (Maybe they'll do less damage if they're half dead.  )

[INVAR]

The new payroll tax. And maybe some added sin tax.

Essentially Moochelle's North Korean School Lunch program gone national.

Dare to buy chips or soda? If they do not outrightly ban them because they will be declared a national security issue and a drain on the taxpayers subsidizing healthcare for everyone - then you do not get any care for that broken ankle you just suffered.

Because you know - we have to compromise with the "reality" that government has a legitimate role in regulating and administrating food, healthcare, clothing, housing and thinking, even if the means by which they achieved that authority was on their own volition.

[Smokin Joe]

Essentially Moochelle's North Korean School Lunch program gone national.

Dare to buy chips or soda? If they do not outrightly ban them because they will be declared a national security issue and a drain on the taxpayers subsidizing healthcare for everyone - then you do not get any care for that broken ankle you just suffered.

Because you know - we have to compromise with the "reality" that government has a legitimate role in regulating and administrating food, healthcare, clothing, housing and thinking, even if the means by which they achieved that authority was on their own volition.

Some of that ties in with the post Prohibition mentality that the federal government has any Constitutional Authority to regulate anything you consume. Note, that in order to ban the consumption of alcoholic beverages, it took a Constitutional Amendment granting the government that authority, and one to repeal that ban.

The only federal authority remaining is the power to tax and enforce those taxes, and even that has limitations.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

@Maj. Bill Martin

I could more readily agree with your outlook if I thought the endgame was better private insurance overall. But I don't think it is. I think it is single payer big government crap they want. All of them. And I object. In full.

So do I, but I don't think that's what all of them want.  Trump really was all over the place prior to the election.  There were times when he sounded like he wanted government-provided insurance, and other times when he castigated it.

At this point, I think he would sign any deal that would pass Congress.  That puts the onus on the GOP factions to come together with the best plan they can, because that will inevitably be more conservative than what the Dems would produce.

[geronl]

The GOP and Trump are telling us that "We must grow to love Big Brother, we must grow to love our chains."

[Maj. Bill Martin]

The problem with a half step is that that will get a check mark next to that, and the thundering herd will move on, until the Democrats come back and load the wagon again.

You may well be right about that -- it's impossible to predict the outcome with certainty.  But our lives under half of ObamaCare will be better than our lives under full-strength ObamaCare, and the longer we can live under that before moving left again, the better.   And I'd point out that the Democrats only managed to get ObamaCare when they controlled the House, the Senate, and the Presidency all at the same time.  So we may well be able to hold only whatever lessening of the statist burden we can get for quite a awhile.

Plus, if/when they do get that level of control again, they'll be starting lower down the socialist mountain than they would have been otherwise.

Unfortunately, it will also remove many of the objections people have and water down the  the entire idea that THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY TO BE IN THE HEALTHCARE BUSINESS WHATSOEVER.

Look -- I agree with you.  I'm a pretty hardcore libertarian on the economy, and think the Supreme Court has been wrong on the commerce clause since the late 30's.  The problem is that most Americans simply are not yet comfortable with that.  Before we can convince them that very little government is best, we have to show them that less actually works.  If we can restore more of the free market, even if not completely, that's going to give the free market more credibility in the eyes of the voters, and so we can push further next time.  I know there's no guarantee that will happen, but as a practical matter, that's the only chance we've really got.  Because the truth is that the percentage of the population who believes as you and I do on the substance probably is below 25%.   

If I had a shred of confidence that the GOP would continue to attempt to reverse the notion that the Federal Government had the authority to demand we buy a product and fine/tax us all for not doing so, simply because we are breathing, I might be less recalcitrant, but I have little faith that will be the case.

There are no guarantees, and it is entirely possible that you are right  But it is also possible that this is just the first step in the right direction, and at least, it puts us one step closer to where we want to be than walking away with nothing.   I'll take a 10% chance of success over a 0% chance of success ten times out of ten.  Not to mention that our lives will be better under that half step back then they would if we took no step back at all.