Trump accused the Freedom Caucus of 'saving' Obamacare. Its leader said it's not over.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Is it?

If my kid was doing crack - I shouldn't give up on him because he is only smoking two crack pipes a day instead of ten?

We used to call that 'enabling'.

And I have no part in enabling bad behavior.
Repentance came first.  That meant ending the wicked and sinful practices that were antithetical to what Gods' laws laid down.

Did the consequences and judgment named upon Judah for their sins eventually come or not?

Every single time Israel and Judah abandoned God or compromised God's Laws with those practices anathema to what was laid down as foundational - they were ultimately destroyed and sent into slavery.

The consequences for compromising with practices and ideas contrary to the foundational principles and laws agreed to, always come upon a people - and none escape.

Considering I can't find a biblical command for or against your method of advancing the truth; I'm not sure first analogy really holds. I'd rather have a kid not listen once a week than back talk every day; I'd rather have A's but I'll take B's etc. As far as  Our righteousness is as filthy rags if you set a bar of perfection why would any bother to try. 

For example Daniel, Esther, Obadiah, Joseph and others were not condemned for doing what they could within the system they had. God did not command them to stand outside and root for everything to crash into the ground so they could rebuild. There were lines that you do not cross, and you can't compromise with evil. Things with clear biblical commands times when it is better to Obey god than men. Keep in mind, most folks only get thrown in the Lions den once, asking your representative in congress to do it on every issue an impossibility.

Here we are dealing with how to advance principles. It's not a question of which side we are dealing with. Moderates and those who don't believe in freedom we have to be careful with but to refuse to work with those who have the same goals and different tactics is a losing strategy. If we reject everyone but those who meet are incredibly pure standard of pureness, then of course all we can do is let things crash and burn.

[INVAR]

To answer it directly, I think it is because those arguing for all or nothing probably believe that means nothing, and are resigned to that.  There is no joy because they are already defeated.

Principles can never be defeated unless they are surrendered first.  Which is what you are advocating we do.

I do not cede the ground that government has a role in forcing us to purchase health insurance and subsidizing others to purchase it.  That is what you have done and advocate that we must do.

Nuts to you sir.

Our joy is that our principles transcend the vain institutions and reasonings of men.  We live Galatians 5:1, while others are demanding we must agree to the yoke of bondage if we want anything.

As a broader point, it makes me think that some people treat politics like religion - that faith and purity themselves are virtues, and an end in themselves.

Some of us do not compartmentalize our faith and beliefs.  They are one and the same.  It is who we are in everything we do.  But I do find it revealing how averse and disgusted some people are over any mention of virtue and principles that refuse to be compromised or surrendered to gain a false sense of security by accommodating tyranny.

  And that's the problem with the "all or nothing" approach, because if ideological purity for its own sake results in a society that is less free than if you'd accepted something less, what have you gained?  Your kids now live in a worse country, with less of a chance for success and happiness.  And so do you.

You know, your whole argument about how we're supposed to surrender here and there to get a little bit of liberty while ignoring the wholesale march into despotism is something this country has been doing for at least a 100 years, and especially for the last 50.  In short - we already followed your advice.

As a result of our country following your advice, we are no longer operate as a Constitutional Republic, but a Socialist Democracy under an ever-growing behemoth state that pays lip service to the word Republic to placate those who still respect the idea of what we were supposed to be.

I wondered where it was exactly that I recall reading similar sentiments about ignoring politics and trying to eek out happiness in life while surrendering a bit more here, and a bit more there for the empty promise of freedom. 




Oh....I remember now.

The arguments given for putting up with invasion and tyranny...were given in Vichy France.

[INVAR]

Considering I can't find a biblical command for or against your method of advancing the truth; I'm not sure first analogy really holds. I'd rather have a kid not listen once a week than back talk every day; I'd rather have A's but I'll take B's etc.

No, I do not accept that analogy.   I'm not going to sugarcoat Socialism and Marxism by suggesting this issue is an allegory of kids struggling over getting good grades. 

The crack analogy fits because this government and this people are ADDICTED to big government Socialism.  This whole idea of government-run healthcare is the biggest camel's nose of despotism under the tent of liberty we had since LBJ.   And like meth or crack - it only takes one use to get society addicted and another permanent entitlement is established that puts government in control of every aspect of our lives - in order to control costs.  The Left has been working to impose this for a century - because they knew that was the lynchpin towards turning the republic into a total Communist state.

The only way to stop an addiction that leads to death - is to END the addiction.  Not reward the addict who cut down their use for a time.

As far as  Our righteousness is as filthy rags if you set a bar of perfection why would any bother to try. 

"Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect" Matthew 5:48

""Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? - Luke 6:46

"He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne." - Revelation 3:21

For example Daniel, Esther, Obadiah, Joseph and others were not condemned for doing what they could within the system they had.

We were not born under bondage as they were.  We were not born under a despotic king.  We were born in the most unique and free nation in the history of mankind and we keep hearing the wisdom of men telling us that we must sell our birthright for a bowl of soup and free healthcare.   We were not born into a nation whereby we are forced to work within an established tyranny of a monarchy or other oppressive regime.

Ours was a republic, if we could KEEP IT.  That meant eschewing evil and efforts to impose ideas anathema to the liberty established for us every single time it was encountered. 

We did not do that - so we are losing it - because we keep giving into it the voices that tell us that we must surrender principles to achieve a little movement of the ball down the field towards our side.

God did not command them to stand outside and root for everything to crash into the ground so they could rebuild.

Read the books of Jeremiah, Joel and Zechariah for starters and get back to me.

There were lines that you do not cross, and you can't compromise with evil.

We already have.  Abortion a generation ago, Healthcare a few years ago, homosexual marriage last year and so on.  In each case we hear the voices that tell us that we are never going to be able to stop or overturn those evils, so we have to compromise our opposition to them in order to get a little bit of what we want.  Meanwhile the choir for normalizing pedophelia rights is warming up now that the transgender band is finishing up their performance on stage.  A little leaven, leavens the the entire lump.

That is true of sin.  It is also true of Socialism, Communism and Statism.

Things with clear biblical commands times when it is better to Obey god than men.

Not according to our 'betters' who insist that we, whom have no voice, are infinitesimally irrelevant and have no one listening to us are suddenly a cog in the wheel of making life better and Joyous for them.

Here we are dealing with how to advance principles.

You state them plainly and you make certain they understand that they are not negotiable or movable.

Otherwise they are not principles at all, just guidelines when the sailing winds are in your favor.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

No, I do not accept that analogy.   I'm not going to sugarcoat Socialism and Marxism by suggesting this issue is an allegory of kids struggling over getting good grades. 

The crack analogy fits because this government and this people are ADDICTED to big government Socialism.  This whole idea of government-run healthcare is the biggest camel's nose of despotism under the tent of liberty we had since LBJ.   And like meth or crack - it only takes one use to get society addicted and another permanent entitlement is established that puts government in control of every aspect of our lives - in order to control costs.  The Left has been working to impose this for a century - because they knew that was the lynchpin towards turning the republic into a total Communist state.

The only way to stop an addiction that leads to death - is to END the addiction.  Not reward the addict who cut down their use for a time.

"Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect" Matthew 5:48

""Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? - Luke 6:46

"He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne." - Revelation 3:21


We were not born under bondage as they were.  We were not born under a despotic king.  We were born in the most unique and free nation in the history of mankind and we keep hearing the wisdom of men telling us that we must sell our birthright for a bowl of soup and free healthcare.   We were not born into a nation whereby we are forced to work within an established tyranny of a monarchy or other oppressive regime.

Ours was a republic, if we could KEEP IT.  That meant eschewing evil and efforts to impose ideas anathema to the liberty established for us every single time it was encountered. 

We did not do that - so we are losing it - because we keep giving into it the voices that tell us that we must surrender principles to achieve a little movement of the ball down the field towards our side.

Read the books of Jeremiah, Joel and Zechariah for starters and get back to me.

We already have.  Abortion a generation ago, Healthcare a few years ago, homosexual marriage last year and so on.  In each case we hear the voices that tell us that we are never going to be able to stop or overturn those evils, so we have to compromise our opposition to them in order to get a little bit of what we want.  Meanwhile the choir for normalizing pedophelia rights is warming up now that the transgender band is finishing up their performance on stage.  A little leaven, leavens the the entire lump.

That is true of sin.  It is also true of Socialism, Communism and Statism.

Not according to our 'betters' who insist that we, whom have no voice, are infinitesimally irrelevant and have no one listening to us are suddenly a cog in the wheel of making life better and Joyous for them.

You state them plainly and you make certain they understand that they are not negotiable or movable.

Otherwise they are not principles at all, just guidelines when the sailing winds are in your favor.

And are you perfect as your father in heaven?

Do you have a verse that says trying to stop sin is a sin? That's what you are arguing.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

No, I do not accept that analogy.   I'm not going to sugarcoat Socialism and Marxism by suggesting this issue is an allegory of kids struggling over getting good grades. 

The crack analogy fits because this government and this people are ADDICTED to big government Socialism.  This whole idea of government-run healthcare is the biggest camel's nose of despotism under the tent of liberty we had since LBJ.   And like meth or crack - it only takes one use to get society addicted and another permanent entitlement is established that puts government in control of every aspect of our lives - in order to control costs.  The Left has been working to impose this for a century - because they knew that was the lynchpin towards turning the republic into a total Communist state.

The only way to stop an addiction that leads to death - is to END the addiction.  Not reward the addict who cut down their use for a time.

"Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect" Matthew 5:48

""Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? - Luke 6:46

"He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne." - Revelation 3:21


We were not born under bondage as they were.  We were not born under a despotic king.  We were born in the most unique and free nation in the history of mankind and we keep hearing the wisdom of men telling us that we must sell our birthright for a bowl of soup and free healthcare.   We were not born into a nation whereby we are forced to work within an established tyranny of a monarchy or other oppressive regime.

Ours was a republic, if we could KEEP IT.  That meant eschewing evil and efforts to impose ideas anathema to the liberty established for us every single time it was encountered. 

We did not do that - so we are losing it - because we keep giving into it the voices that tell us that we must surrender principles to achieve a little movement of the ball down the field towards our side.

Read the books of Jeremiah, Joel and Zechariah for starters and get back to me.

We already have.  Abortion a generation ago, Healthcare a few years ago, homosexual marriage last year and so on.  In each case we hear the voices that tell us that we are never going to be able to stop or overturn those evils, so we have to compromise our opposition to them in order to get a little bit of what we want.  Meanwhile the choir for normalizing pedophelia rights is warming up now that the transgender band is finishing up their performance on stage.  A little leaven, leavens the the entire lump.

That is true of sin.  It is also true of Socialism, Communism and Statism.

Not according to our 'betters' who insist that we, whom have no voice, are infinitesimally irrelevant and have no one listening to us are suddenly a cog in the wheel of making life better and Joyous for them.

You state them plainly and you make certain they understand that they are not negotiable or movable.

Otherwise they are not principles at all, just guidelines when the sailing winds are in your favor.

You most be really old or from the future if you've ever seen America perfect. It was messed up well before I was born. You can always find an excuse to stand aside and let it burn. Slavery, the treatment of the Indians, Income tax, FDR's new deal, farm aid, rural free delivery. You don't overcome challenges by demanding perfection, you get there by striving for it.
"For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief." Proverbs 24:16
 If you need me I'll be in there fighting and failing and getting up again. It's just how I'm wired. 

Incidentally, while I like you analogy in some respects, because I too want to see every last word of this god forsaken law repealed; it does have some flaws. Depending on the addiction you know quitting cold turkey can kill the patient right?

[INVAR]

And are you perfect as your father in heaven?

Working on it.

Don't expect to achieve it in this life, but I'm working on it nonetheless.

I am not working on overcoming sin when I tell myself that I can sin a little bit, because I'm in a minority and everyone is doing it and wise men insist that it is surely NOT sin.

I have to confess every time I give into sin, and work harder to overcome doing it.

Do you have a verse that says trying to stop sin is a sin? That's what you are arguing.

That's absurd.  You do not stop sin by compromising with sin in order to get LESS sin.  Sin also being used in the context of tyranny in this discussion.

So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.  Mark 3:23-25

You do not stop sin by agreeing that we have to accept sin, or that half measures that still keep the core of sin a stranglehold on our lives is better than nothing.

You most be really old or from the future if you've ever seen America perfect. It was messed up well before I was born.

Foundational principles were perfect for liberty to exist and prosper here as long as a people were moral and religious in their personal lives to transcend into society.  You were always going to have the wicked, but as long as the majority let them know where the line was that could not be crossed - liberty could exist.

Not anymore.

You can always find an excuse to stand aside and let it burn.

If the people want to sin, if they want tyranny and Communism - they shall have it.  I'm standing here warning what the consequences are going to be - and for that - I'm the infinitesimal and irrelevant voice that is somehow THE PROBLEM in achieving salve for the consequences they reaped.

You don't overcome challenges by demanding perfection, you get there by striving for it.

Matthew 5:48 sure sounds like a command to strive for perfection to me.

Incidentally, while I like you analogy in some respects, because I too want to see every last word of this god forsaken law repealed; it does have some flaws. Depending on the addiction you know quitting cold turkey can kill the patient right?

Of course. Weaning certain kinds of addicts off the thing that will kill them by replacing their vice with something good is necessary.   The goal is to END the addiction, to STOP IT.  Not partake in it ourselves and say that stopping the addiction is not realistic and compromise by transferring the duties of Dealer and Pusher to the GOP.

[bigheadfred]

Your average American has little in the way of principles. They don't have the time or the interest to involve themselves with the tediousness of the big problems. They go to work, pay their taxes, go to church, bang the war drum, send their kids to die for nothing in foreign wars.

Complain about the way things are. But shrug their shoulders and hang their heads because there is nothing they can do about it.

Re elect the same people over and over expecting "this" time it will be different.

The vampires and zombies swarm, taking little by little from the nurturing society. Until there is nothing left to take.

The health care system in this country is a fraud. Not only the ACA. The entire system. The ACA made it worse. The "fix" worse still.

@INVAR is absolutely correct, IMO.

[bigheadfred]

The Earth, only true Altar of God, had offered up a sacrifice of life and sorrow to atone for the sins of mankind.
Man had not sinned in deed but in the things he had failed to do. Man suffers not only for what he does but for
what he fails to do. He is not chastised for making mistakes but for failing to recognize and rectify them.

[EasyAce]

In the middle of all this I keep thinking about a) Jesus's distinction between Caesar and God, and b) enough people
thinking it's a license to let Caesar make off with the whole pot.

[Smokin Joe]

Nobody is advocating submitting to the other side. They are advocating taking half a loaf rather than none.  Moving the ball in the right direction, even if it is not as far as you'd like, it not "submitting".

If you insist on all or nothing, you'll get nothing.  And sorry, but the only people who support that are defeatists who believe we've already lost.  In which case, you're no longer an ally of those who wish to keep fighting.

That is one of the finest pieces of circular reasoning I have ever seen.
If we don't throw away our objectives we'll never reach them?

Nonsense.

If you want to 'fix' health care, get the ACA out of it. Period. That's the best first step. 

[Smokin Joe]

So what?

So what if everything you just said is true, and the Tuesday Group is a bunch of lying hypocrites?  Pointing that out still isn't going to get us to 218 votes.

After a couple more years of pain, and those guys getting hit with primary challenges, it might sink in. When reprobates don't repent, it is usually because they're just fine with their pain levels.

[Smokin Joe]

I hope your fans here read this, and realize exactly what you are advocating.  Maybe not all of them are willing to follow you so merrily into your abyss.

Hello? We didn't make this mess, we are the ones advocating getting rid of it. If the Dems can pass it in one fell swoop, then the GOP should be able to remove it the same way. The only difference is one of commitment. The wishy-washy among the GOP, especially those from liberal districts don't want it gone.

Damnit, they only ran as Republicans because someone else had already cinched the Democrat nomination, not because they had any principle.

But let's be clear about one thing, Conservatives have opposed this crap from the git-go, and still do. If you want someone to BLAME, blame the ones who are tepid in their purpose, and who will not vote for repeal. The Conservatives had nothing to do with enacting this mess, and advocate full repeal, and yet, you in your contorted logic would blame them when the house of cards comes tumbling down? Because chipping away at that mess might make the cards crumple in slow motion, but unsustainable is unsustainable, and the inevitable will happen anyway, just a little later.

By the way, what makes you so certain that after we hit "rock bottom", and force our kids to dwell down there, we'll actually pick up with your ideas?  You have said before that you see yourself as a "witness" to all this, and that nobody will be able to say that you didn't tell them this would happen.

We're already there, paying out of pocket. They know how it got this way, and thy don't have any love lost for any of the "moderates/progressives/communists/criminals" on either side of the aisle who let this persist.

But what you're apparently not recognizing is that 99.99999% of this country doesn't know who you are, and doesn't care what you say.  You're "warning" is not being heard by anyone except those who already agree with you.  And even if the majority of the country did actually hear you, one of the core features of liberalism (according to von Hayek, and I think he was right), is that they always blame their failures on their opponents not giving them enough power. 

Just like every 'moderate who has posted on this, blaming the FC for not giving them enough power to enshrine 80% of Obamacare (conservative estimate), and rebrand it "Republican".

So it is entirely possible that the failure of democratic socialism will be outright violent communism, or thug-o-cratic fascism, anarcho-syndicalism, or some other orthodoxy that is even more foul than the one that currently plagues us.

We could head into your abyss, and never emerge.

We're already on the way. Only it isn't our abyss, we didn't build that, we didn't vote for that, we did not approve, and we even tried to get y'all to advocate the elimination of it along with us. No way in Hell we're going to own it.

[Smokin Joe]

History tells us most countries/civilizations don't. After enough destruction people embrace the strong man savior type and things get even worse.

:nometalk:

Generally speaking people don't take up arms till they get hungry and hungry mobs don't make good decisions.

Angry people do stupid things. The next American Revolution will look more like the French Revolution (and the Terror), not 1776.

[Smokin Joe]

We are a unique nation.  We were born out of ideas, not ethnicity or tribalism.  When the Revolution was won, the Marquis de Lafayette said:

"Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a Country."

I will not just give that country up, cash in my chips, and help shove that country into the abyss on the wild hope that it will magically re-emerge as if it is 1776 all over again.  As you say, human history does not give good odds on that.  So, we have to fight, tooth and nail, to preserve what we have as best as we can, for as long as we can.  Anything else is just nihilism.  And self-congratulatory nihilism as that.

I personally will not discard the sacrifices of all those who came before us by helping to shove this country into a gutter.

We aren't shoving anything into a gutter, we're advocating pulling it all out.

[Smokin Joe]

Sure there's an excuse.   Those other bills won't pass.   The AHCA was likely conservatives' best shot.  Given the numbers, I can't see how a future bill to fix the ACA will be more conservative than the AHCA.

What numbers? No one voted on anything. Let them go on record. (And let them get feedback from their districts).

[INVAR]

In the middle of all this I keep thinking about a) Jesus's distinction between Caesar and God, and b) enough people
thinking it's a license to let Caesar make off with the whole pot.

Now THAT is a license plate if I ever saw one!

[Emjay]

@Emjay

That's a pretty profound point that raises a bunch of issues.  To answer it directly, I think it is because those arguing for all or nothing probably believe that means nothing, and are resigned to that.  There is no joy because they are already defeated.

As a broader point, it makes me think that some people treat politics like religion - that faith and purity themselves are virtues, and an end in themselves. 

But politics is, and should be, different.  We all (well, most of us) have lives outside politics, that include family, friends, hobbies, work, and religion.  We should be able to be happy even if the nation's politics are not exactly what we would prefer.   The goal of politics is to establish policies that maximize the potential for happiness, so it is a continuum, not an absolute standard.  It is a means, not an end in itself.

So okay, we don't live in a perfectly free, laissez-faire society.  But that doesn't make our lives without meaning or value otherwise, or that we can't still be happy.  We can still try to live the best, more free lives possible, both for ourselves and our children.  And that's the problem with the "all or nothing" approach, because if ideological purity for its own sake results in a society that is less free than if you'd accepted something less, what have you gained?  Your kids now live in a worse country, with less of a chance for success and happiness.  And so do you.

If all we're doing is fighting a rearguard action, that is still worthwhile, because it means our children will get to live in a somewhat better country than they would have if we just gave up.  We still fight.  We get big victories if we can, small ones if that's all we can get, and try to make our defeats as small as possible.  And if we're really on the road that inevitably leads to serfdom, then isn't it best to resist that as long as possible, to preserve as much as can be preserved for as long as it can be preserved?  We can still lead good lives, and obtain happiness.  Even if our society is not as ideologically pure as some might wish.  Politics is not religion.

I'd add that the Declaration of Independence didn't promise us a state of happiness or perfection.  Happiness is something we're supposed to pursue, to work for.  Which means sometimes life isn't going to give us what we want, and we're going to have to struggle for the best we can get.  But this whole defeatist mindset -- this "if we don't have perfect liberty we don't have any liberty at all" is simply madness.  It is a blackness of the soul, and a recipe for misery for those who elevate politics to religion.

Screw that.  I think we should fight for the best political environment we can obtain, even if it isn't perfect, and enjoy the hell out of the rest of our lives.

Good post and I think (and hope) that the utter despair and cynicism displayed in way too many posts here are just venting and not a reflection of the posters' total philosophy.

I just get really tired of reading that kind of thing that presents no intent to fight on but just resigned to living forever in No No Land.

[Smokin Joe]

Considering I can't find a biblical command for or against your method of advancing the truth; I'm not sure first analogy really holds. I'd rather have a kid not listen once a week than back talk every day; I'd rather have A's but I'll take B's etc. As far as  Our righteousness is as filthy rags if you set a bar of perfection why would any bother to try. 

Yet that righteousness is perfection. We don't cast that aside and set the bar lower, we retain it to strive for.
The AHCA wasn't a 'B', not even a 'C'. you ask for perfection from your kids, and if they bring in 87% (that's a 'B' here) you say, try to do better next time. If they come in with 20%, you will  handle that differently. Yet we're being told 20% is "good", and "we'll get more next time", and "we have to chip away at it a little at a time". Chip away at it a little at a time and your kid will do that grade over.

For example Daniel, Esther, Obadiah, Joseph and others were not condemned for doing what they could within the system they had. God did not command them to stand outside and root for everything to crash into the ground so they could rebuild.

We aren't rooting for that to happen, we are predicting it as a consequence. there is a difference. See above, and tell me how that kid will make the Honor Roll. They won't.

There were lines that you do not cross, and you can't compromise with evil. Things with clear biblical commands times when it is better to Obey god than men. Keep in mind, most folks only get thrown in the Lions den once, asking your representative in congress to do it on every issue an impossibility.

This is the issue they claimed they needed the majority to deal with, and the White House, too. Now, we are being blamed because poor legislation fails? They chose this hill to stand on, this issue for the reason to elect them. Now they can take that stand.

Here we are dealing with how to advance principles. It's not a question of which side we are dealing with. Moderates and those who don't believe in freedom we have to be careful with but to refuse to work with those who have the same goals and different tactics is a losing strategy. If we reject everyone but those who meet are incredibly pure standard of pureness, then of course all we can do is let things crash and burn.

How many more years of chanting "repeal" will it take? Joshua and his army only had to circle Jericho seven times. We've been all around the issue here more than that. The Republicans voted for repeal when it didn't count, it is their duplicity which makes the issue even in doubt now. Blame them, if you must blame someone. Blame the Democrats who broke their own rules to pass it. But not those who continue to advocate repeal.

[INVAR]

Angry people do stupid things. The next American Revolution will look more like the French Revolution (and the Terror), not 1776.

Exactly.

As DeToqueville noted, the reason the French Revolution was a bloodbath and not like the American Revolution was that a majority of Americans were Christian, moral and church-going people.  France was not.

The envy, greed, jealousies and base human natures were easily manipulated to sire revenge and bloodletting.

Which is why it is likely that your comment is exactly what will occur. 

Hell, the way things are shaping up - 1790s France will be a picnic in comparison.

[INVAR]

I just get really tired of reading that kind of thing that presents no intent to fight on but just resigned to living forever in No No Land.

You have nothing to fight for when you surrender or compromise the principles of your entire cause and purpose to the enemy.

The ones actually doing the 'fighting' are those holding the line and refusing to budge.

[roamer_1]

I've read so many comments like this lately.

Where is the joy?  The hope, the optimism; the willingness to work until you achieve the goal.

You expect that reaction out of all this?

Not gonna happen. Y'all are on your own.
No more money, no more political action, not a single ounce of pull.
I will not 'help' this abomination gain ground. not one little bit.
This is *NOT* Conservatism.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

 

We're already on the way. Only it isn't our abyss, we didn't build that, we didn't vote for that, we did not approve, and we even tried to get y'all to advocate the elimination of it along with us. No way in Hell we're going to own it.

@Smokin Joe, this is the exact concept I was talking about in my response to @Emjay .  You're ignoring the human cost to us, to our children, and to the entire country of ending up in the abyss, instead consoling yourself with finger pointing.  "Sure, everything has fallen apart, people are starving, there is violence everywhere....but you can't blame me!"  But I'm pretty sure our grandchildren are going to care much less about how brought us to that end compared to the fact that they have to actually live in it.

I honestly can't even fathom that mindset.  Even if we're "already on our way" on Hayek's Road to Serfdom, doesn't it make sense to slam on the brakes as hard as we can, rather than just waving ?  Why not try to preserve the best life we possibly can for those that follow us?  When you buy time and keep fighting, you never know - you may get lucky and start winning a few.  But instead of holding on as long as we can to what liberty remains, you guys are advocating sitting back, enjoying the ride, and blaming the driver as he heads off the cliff.  The fact that we're all going to be stuck in that same care regardless of whose fault it was doesn't seem to matter.

[roamer_1]

@Smokin Joe, this is the exact concept I was talking about in my response to @Emjay .  You're ignoring the human cost to us, to our children, and to the entire country of ending up in the abyss, instead consoling yourself with finger pointing.  "Sure, everything has fallen apart, people are starving, there is violence everywhere....but you can't blame me!"  But I'm pretty sure our grandchildren are going to care much less about how brought us to that end compared to the fact that they have to actually live in it.

Nonsense. Allowing it to stand is acquiescence. To participate in making it more palatable ensures it will be there for our grandchildren and beyond. It has become 'part of the furniture' already to many of y'all.

And for all you'd care to say about half-loaves and such, the first time the Dems are back in power, it will be right back where it was, and probably even worse, because the heavy lifting of it will already be done - because we didn't have the cajones to stand up and call a spade a spade.

Appeasement is never going to work. your argument has been the norm all of my life, and it never has worked.
Dems do NOTHING to appease. They run roughshod, by hook or by crook, and get what they want.
Republicans are lily-livered cowards, with very few notable exceptions, who bend over backwards to appease, which s why I am a Republican no longer.

Knock yourself out. All you will do is secure single-payer for generations to come. And once again, Republicans will have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

I'll have *nothing* to do with it. 

[INVAR]

You're ignoring the human cost to us, to our children, and to the entire country of ending up in the abyss, instead consoling yourself with finger pointing. 

We've ignored nothing.  We told everyone where ObamaCare would take the country and what it would do to our people and our posterity.  We cannot help it if they refused to listen.  For 7 years the GOP lied to us with the kabuki theater production of 'We know this is bad, we will get rid of it if you elect us'.

Now you are telling us we have to compromise and concede while these same people who promised repeal just want to change management and make some adjustments to tyranny, because "the votes aren't there".  Okay.  So all that woe-is-you what about my kids as we go into the abyss? is going to happen anyway.

No one is consoling ourselves with finger pointing.  The country chose to go down the road to oblivion.  They refused to stop and turn around.  You tell us that we must compromise and not expect a full turnaround.  So, over the bridge and down the ravine we go.  Those are the consequences.

Even if we're "already on our way" on Hayek's Road to Serfdom, doesn't it make sense to slam on the brakes as hard as we can, rather than just waving ?

Hitting the brakes means STOP.  END.  REPEAL.

You keep telling us is that the votes are not there, and applying the brakes to a complete stop and reverse is not an option.  We must compromise and maybe get 20% of the brakes applied.  Maybe turn the wheel 20 degrees right.

Guess what?  You get to go over the cliff anyway, even after we warned everyone not to take the bus down that road because the bridge was out.  They didn't listen.

But instead of holding on as long as we can to what liberty remains, you guys are advocating sitting back, enjoying the ride, and blaming the driver as he heads off the cliff.  The fact that we're all going to be stuck in that same care regardless of whose fault it was doesn't seem to matter.

If you wanted liberty to remain, you should never have surrendered the principle that government has no role or authority to run healthcare.  Now the you have empowered them with that authority by compromise - they will assert that power further and take you over the cliff anyway.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe, this is the exact concept I was talking about in my response to @Emjay .  You're ignoring the human cost to us, to our children, and to the entire country of ending up in the abyss, instead consoling yourself with finger pointing. 

That's bullhit, Bill, I and my family were among the early casualties of Obamacare. We still pay out of pocket for everything, because the insurance carrier said "hell no" to carrying health insurance under the ACA. They're a major insurer, and I had had insurance with them for over 20 years.

"Sure, everything has fallen apart, people are starving, there is violence everywhere....but you can't blame me!"  But I'm pretty sure our grandchildren are going to care much less about how brought us to that end compared to the fact that they have to actually live in it.

Maybe you'd like to talk with my grandchildren? All 13 of them are 'living the dream' thanks to the ACA, including the two we are raising, and they know it will take time for things to get back to normal after it is gone or they will lose that freedom. So get with the program and repeal it. They know full well where I stand on this and why. They'd rather have their birthright than a mass of pottage.
Quit pulling the tooth a tiny bit at a time, and get the damned job done so it can start healing.

I honestly can't even fathom that mindset. 

Well, Bill, that makes two of us. I can't understand why anyone in Congress who had voted before to repeal this crap would balk now. I can't understand why in the Hell people who claim to be against this crap aren't pushing just as hard as we are for full repeal, instead of pushing back against it and whining about how WE are the ones who supposedly are perpetrating the very disaster YOU, by the minor and ineffective nature of your gestures would continue. Git 'er done!

Even if we're "already on our way" on Hayek's Road to Serfdom, doesn't it make sense to slam on the brakes as hard as we can, rather than just waving ? 

Oh, Hell yeah! That's what we are advocating, no half measures, no baby steps, quit pissing around and repeal it.
Your version of 'as hard as we can' is a pretty lousy stopping distance....as in never.  Like dragging your feet on a motorcycle doing 90. It isn't happening. If you want to stop going down this road, SHUT. IT. DOWN.

Why not try to preserve the best life we possibly can for those that follow us? 

That is what we are trying to do. The Federal Government has no business doing this, has usurped the power, and we want it back, not just for us, but for our children's children's children and, incidentally, yours too. We just don't want to have to wait for our great great grandchildren to recover that liberty.

When you buy time and keep fighting, you never know - you may get lucky and start winning a few.

That's a textbook quagmire. The only winners are the feather merchants and arms sellers but the war never ends. It's invading Japan instead of dropping the bomb. That may pass for "strategery", but something decisive would end it. Less suffering in the long run, so get with the program, and drag those liberal pubbies along with you.

But instead of holding on as long as we can to what liberty remains, you guys are advocating sitting back, enjoying the ride, and blaming the driver as he heads off the cliff.  The fact that we're all going to be stuck in that same care regardless of whose fault it was doesn't seem to matter.

You are content with crumbs, from your own table, and call that 'free'. Really? Think about that.
We said to turn right, the 'driver' turned left, we try to get to the wheel, and the rest of you stand in the way. We say stop the bus, and you guys want to keep going.

How are we anything but just along for the ride?

You may want to go off the cliff slower, but that doesn't make the drop any shorter. The only reason for delay is to kick that can down the road and hope the benefits don't run out before you take the big dirtnap. At least have either the guts to stand and fight for repeal or the balls to own the results. If you think I'm enjoying this ride, I have another think for you. But I am under no illusions that the 'moderates' (that's a liberal, only in RINOspeak) are the ones driving--either that, or asleep at the wheel. They finally have both the houses of Congress and the White House, as we were told they needed, and despite the votes to repeal when it would never be signed, now REFUSE to vote on repeal.

Sorry, we did our part, and if y'all are having troubles with us reminding people that it's time to get the job done, well, whose fault is that? We delivered. Don't blame us for your collective failure to toe the line.