Trump accused the Freedom Caucus of 'saving' Obamacare. Its leader said it's not over.

[skeeter]

My position. And most importantly, I do NOT want them to give up and quit, due to some schedule. Keep at it.

This issue, more than any other save illegal immigration, demonstrates that our representatives have no intention of representing their voters. They could easily create a public outcry for full repeal - it's already been shown beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a vote-getter.

Instead they (the moderates) are more interested in representing demographics that do not support them in elections. It's easy to suspect that what compels them instead is their own self interests - Obamacare is a boon to the statist.

[Rivergirl]

There were many choices during the primary.  Many allowed the bully to speak for them.
I was not one of them and never will be part of those who agree that DT is an honorable leader.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

@INVAR
Seems like you WANT things to go down in flames and everyone to die.

Well, it's not really everyone dying.  It's the "Galt's Gulch" view, where everything going down in flames ultimately results in conservatives winning.

I've been working on an article regarding how the belief in Galt's Gulch cripples the ability of conservatives to affect change.  Suppose I really ought to get back to it....

[driftdiver]

@Driftdriver, I've been following your argument, and I have to disagree.  Some of us usually make decisions based on emotion, and some of us frequently don't.  It's a long and difficult process to become able to be able to learn to discern the difference between what we want and what we should do, but it's very possible.  I think you're giving too much weight to emotion.

@Sanguine @CatherineofAragon

Perhaps and I think the typical "conservative" gives it far too little consideration. 

Lets look at the average person on an average day.

They wake up, possibly to an alarm clock they bought because they liked it.  Sleeping in a bed they bought because its comfortable using a pillow that feels good.

They take a hot shower because a hot shower feels better then a cold show.
They use soaps that make their skin feel good and maybe smell good (smell triggering an emotional response).
They fix their hair in a way they feel comfortable with and put on clothes they bought because they look good, feel good.
They eat a breakfast that they like, because it tastes good (another emotional response).
They drive to work in a car they bought because they like it.
They work at a job that gives them satisfaction.
They married a wife/husband because they loved them.
They get pleasure out of watching their daughter play a sport, their son hit a baseball.
They visit this site because they like to argue.
They watch movies they find interesting.

Then they repeat.   yes facts and figures play a part but its naive to think emotions aren't important and that the majority of people in the world aren't ruled by their emotions.

[driftdiver]

Well, it's not really everyone dying.  It's the "Galt's Gulch" view, where everything going down in flames ultimately results in conservatives winning.

I've been working on an article regarding how the belief in Galt's Gulch cripples the ability of conservatives to affect change.  Suppose I really ought to get back to it....

@Maj. Bill Martin
yes, please do get back to it.  That sounds very interesting.   IMO the only form of government that will result from a collapse is a dictatorship.  Thats if the Chinese or Arabs don't move in.

[Silver Pines]

Yeah this would not have been winning one for the Gipper.

@Idaho_Cowboy
@INVAR

I'm going to run the risk of sounding dramatic and call it enslavement of the soul.

[Cripplecreek]

I still maintain that no good decisions are made in anger.

That emotion was the prime mover in this election, and we will all pay the penalty for the thoughtlessness of a plurality of primary voters.

Anger no matter how justified is still a primary source of bad decisions.

Look at how the British turned against Churchill. They were angry with good reason about the fact that rationing continued after WWII while they helped rebuild Germany. The socialists heard the nationalistic cry that "We have to take care of our own people first" and they pounced.

[Silver Pines]

@CatherineofAragon
Of course not, because that would make you feel like you're doing something wrong.  Do facts and figures play into our decisions?  Yes of course but in the end humans are emotional creatures and emotions are a very important part of what we do.

@driftdiver

Yes, but not when picking a candidate to support.  In my case, anyway.

[Mod2]

So far, the only thing I am getting from the early pages of this thread is that several members should not post before lunch on Mondays.

[Emjay]

So far, the only thing I am getting from the early pages of this thread is that several members should not post before lunch on Mondays.

Except for my very cogent posts and those of a few others, I think you may be right.

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine @CatherineofAragon

Perhaps and I think the typical "conservative" gives it far too little consideration. 

Lets look at the average person on an average day.

They wake up, possibly to an alarm clock they bought because they liked it.  Sleeping in a bed they bought because its comfortable using a pillow that feels good.

They take a hot shower because a hot shower feels better then a cold show.
They use soaps that make their skin feel good and maybe smell good (smell triggering an emotional response).
They fix their hair in a way they feel comfortable with and put on clothes they bought because they look good, feel good.
They eat a breakfast that they like, because it tastes good (another emotional response).
They drive to work in a car they bought because they like it.
They work at a job that gives them satisfaction.
They married a wife/husband because they loved them.
They get pleasure out of watching their daughter play a sport, their son hit a baseball.
They visit this site because they like to argue.
They watch movies they find interesting.

Then they repeat.   yes facts and figures play a part but its naive to think emotions aren't important and that the majority of people in the world aren't ruled by their emotions.

Those are all decisions that don't require much thought or have much importance. 

The real ones are more along the lines of:

Do I get up when the alarm clock goes off because if I don't I'll be late for work and inconvenience my coworkers, or do I hit snooze because it feels good and I probably won't get in trouble?
Do I put that money in savings instead of buying that really, really cute pair of sandals?
Do I flip that stupid driver the bird, or do I control my temper and admit that I might have caused that bit of road conflict?
Do I eat the damned salad instead of going and getting some chips and a Snickers for lunch because cholesterol?
Do I tell that poster what I really think of their stupid, insulting argument, or do I temper my words because it's the right thing to do and they are God's children too and they just might have a point?
Do I get up and get dressed and go to church on Sunday even though I would so much rather sit on the back porch and read the news because it's good for my soul and God knows I need it?

[Silver Pines]

@Sanguine @CatherineofAragon

Perhaps and I think the typical "conservative" gives it far too little consideration. 

Lets look at the average person on an average day.

They wake up, possibly to an alarm clock they bought because they liked it.  Sleeping in a bed they bought because its comfortable using a pillow that feels good.

They take a hot shower because a hot shower feels better then a cold show.
They use soaps that make their skin feel good and maybe smell good (smell triggering an emotional response).
They fix their hair in a way they feel comfortable with and put on clothes they bought because they look good, feel good.
They eat a breakfast that they like, because it tastes good (another emotional response).
They drive to work in a car they bought because they like it.
They work at a job that gives them satisfaction.
They married a wife/husband because they loved them.
They get pleasure out of watching their daughter play a sport, their son hit a baseball.
They visit this site because they like to argue.
They watch movies they find interesting.

Then they repeat.   yes facts and figures play a part but its naive to think emotions aren't important and that the majority of people in the world aren't ruled by their emotions.

@driftdiver
@Sanguine

All of that is true, but again, we've been discussing the role of emotion in making political decisions.  Liberals have always run wild in that aspect, and in 2016 we saw a faction of conservatives allow their emotions do the same, unfortunately.  I can only speak for myself.  I still view Ted Cruz as the man I'd most like to see elected president, but that isn't a feelings-based stance.

[Silver Pines]

Those are all decisions that don't require much thought or have much importance. 

The real ones are more along the lines of:

Do I get up when the alarm clock goes off because if I don't I'll be late for work and inconvenience my coworkers, or do I hit snooze because it feels good and I probably won't get in trouble?
Do I put that money in savings instead of buying that really, really cute pair of sandals?
Do I flip that stupid driver the bird, or do I control my temper and admit that I might have caused that bit of road conflict?
Do I eat the damned salad instead of going and getting some chips and a Snickers for lunch because cholesterol?
Do I tell that poster what I really think of their stupid, insulting argument, or do I temper my words because it's the right thing to do and they are God's children too and they just might have a point?
Do I get up and get dressed and go to church on Sunday even though I would so much rather sit on the back porch and read the news because it's good for my soul and God knows I need it?

@Sanguine

Your answer was better than mine, lol.

[XenaLee]

I think agreeing to something that makes the status quo more liberal is giving in to non-conservative values.  I see that as different than compromising to make the status quo more conservative, even if it is not as conservative as you would like.

Sound logic..... except if/when applied to the issue of RyanCare not passing.  The promise was repeal first, if not only.  The bill they came up with was nowhere near what it should have been to reflect those conservative values ...or rather, non-leftist values, that got the Reps elected to a majority in both houses on the promise of 'repeal' of Obamacare.  They promised....they didn't deliver.  Conservatives (and others in the Rep Party) said hell no, back to the drawing board if that's the best you can do.  And I fully agree with that.

[goodwithagun]

So far, the only thing I am getting from the early pages of this thread is that several members should not post before lunch on Mondays.

Or before happy hour 

[XenaLee]

Except for my very cogent posts and those of a few others, I think you may be right.

Lol!!!   Caffeine....

does wonders for the mood and the soul!

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine

Your answer was better than mine, lol.

I was obviously thinking of some things I need to do!

[INVAR]

Then you aren't reading the right stuff.  Man you are a defeatist. 

I'm a realist, and I read plenty.  I just don't subscribe to party cheerleading.

Seems like you WANT things to go down in flames and everyone to die.

Why? Because I'm stating the truth no one wants to hear I want everyone to die?

[Cyber Liberty]

Or before happy hour 

That would be my guess, too.   

[driftdiver]

@driftdiver
@Sanguine

All of that is true, but again, we've been discussing the role of emotion in making political decisions.  Liberals have always run wild in that aspect, and in 2016 we saw a faction of conservatives allow their emotions do the same, unfortunately.  I can only speak for myself.  I still view Ted Cruz as the man I'd most like to see elected president, but that isn't a feelings-based stance.

@CatherineofAragon

Trump won the nomination because he appealed to peoples emotions.   You can't make a rational fact based argument in the 15 second attention span that most people have.   Their mind is made up in about 7 seconds and the next 8 are simply reinforcement.

All of his arguments against Cruz (and others) were emotional, and people bought it.  Cruz made rational arguments as to why he was the better candidate and lost almost every single state.

I wish Cruz was our President but he's not and we have to make orange juice out of what we've been handed.

[corbe]

So far, the only thing I am getting from the early pages of this thread is that several members should not post before lunch on Mondays.

   Or when their Dr. won't refill their Xanax 6 days early  (soon to be fixed by AHCAII).

[INVAR]

Your statement that you stand in better company makes me seriously wonder who you stand with?

Your faith is in men and their corrupted institutions.

Mine is elsewhere along with the principles a majority now disdain.

[INVAR]

Well, it's not really everyone dying.  It's the "Galt's Gulch" view, where everything going down in flames ultimately results in conservatives winning.

I do not look to politics to fix spiritual issues.  The solutions are not there.

That is putting band aids on cancers, which this entire argument about managing government statism is all about.

[driftdiver]

Your faith is in men and their corrupted institutions.

Mine is elsewhere along with the principles a majority now disdain.

@INVAR
Most people (especially the younger generation) don't have the slightest idea of what you are talking about.   Because they have never been taught.

[Silver Pines]

@CatherineofAragon

Trump won the nomination because he appealed to peoples emotions.   You can't make a rational fact based argument in the 15 second attention span that most people have.   Their mind is made up in about 7 seconds and the next 8 are simply reinforcement.

All of his arguments against Cruz (and others) were emotional, and people bought it.  Cruz made rational arguments as to why he was the better candidate and lost almost every single state.

I wish Cruz was our President but he's not and we have to make orange juice out of what we've been handed.

@driftdiver

I don't accept the premise that most conservatives have such short attention spans.  I think many of the people who voted for him in the primaries wanted to indulge their anger.

I didn't mention Cruz as an outlet to weep over the primary results.  I did so in passing. 

It isn't up to me to make anything.  It's up to Trump.  I see him as nothing but a fraud and a liar, so in my view anything he does that's decent will be by accident and in spite of himself.  That's just the way it is for me.