Trump accused the Freedom Caucus of 'saving' Obamacare. Its leader said it's not over.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

@Idaho_Cowboy
And the others compromised and we got the Bill of Rights.   Thank you for proving my point.

Or are you trying to say they didn't compromise?

Or it proves the Freedom Caucus should stick to their guns and be willing to walk away if the rights of Americans are protected. History always has more than one lesson to teach the question is which one is applicable.   

The whole point of a compromise is to make the proposal more popular. I've yet to see any evidence this compromise achieved that goal. It managed to appeal to neither side and even the moderates didn't want that albatross around their necks. I think we are at the stage of the convention where Hamilton says "I say chaps, is a monarchy really that bad?" and everyone says "YES" and moves on.

[INVAR]

OK you stand and fight and die.  Others will continue to fight the fight you won't.

Don't lie to yourself.

This is not fighting.  What I am reading is the argument over how to surrender to tyranny, piecemeal and accept the tiny crumbs of liberty that were robbed from us by the Beast at Mordor on the Potomac, and blaming the Principled for refusing to surrender to 'the best soft-tyranny we can get votes for'.

[Silver Pines]

@CatherineofAragon

I don't mean to quibble but every decision we make is an emotional decision.  Its how we are wired.  You research the issues because it makes you feel better about making the decision you make.  Im not saying you engage in idol worship but its a mistake to discount how much emotion actually controls our lives.

@driftdiver

Well, I can't agree with you that researching candidates and deciding who to support is based on emotion, nor that every decision we make is emotional by default.

[INVAR]

You also didn't have half the population getting some kind of government largess in Patrick Henry's days who would riot if that spigot is closed.

Eventually, math and the laws of economics will probably force major reductions in the size of government.

The amount of blood spilled when that happens will dwarf anything we have ever experienced before.

[Silver Pines]

@Sanguine @CatherineofAragon

Truer words were ne'er spoken.

When you're flailing, you just flail, and never hit your mark. 

@musiclady

"Flail" is one of those words that's just exquisitely descriptive.  I love it.   

[LMAO]

The amount of blood spilled when that happens will dwarf anything we have ever experienced before.

But we have a Federal Reserve than can create money out of thin air to keep the population somewhat pacified

[Silver Pines]

Patrick Henry's declaration of 'Freedom or Death' is now considered childish and 'unrealistic' by a vast majority of those who self-identify as Conservatives these days.

We either oppose tyranny, or we submit to tyranny.

I read too many willing slaves nowadays who will justify submitting to much-promised but never seen lesser lash and the lighter yoke of government tyranny.

@INVAR

As I saw on another forum:  "Trump has done so much for us.  He struggled and won the election.  Now, if he wants this bill passed, we should do it for him."

Dear God in heaven...

[INVAR]

But we have a Federal Reserve than can create money out of thin air to keep the population somewhat pacified

Heh.  You said it yourself - there are LAWS of economics.  Laws that the best Alchemists cannot prevent the consequences of when a society violates those laws.

The bill will always come due.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

@INVAR

As I saw on another forum:  "Trump has done so much for us.  He struggled and won the election.  Now, if he wants this bill passed, we should do it for him."

Dear God in heaven...

Yeah this would not have been winning one for the Gipper.

[INVAR]

@INVAR

As I saw on another forum:  "Trump has done so much for us.  He struggled and won the election.  Now, if he wants this bill passed, we should do it for him."

Dear God in heaven...

Yup.  Human nature at it's usual.

It's how narcissistic leaders get their population to applaud genocide of political enemies.

[LMAO]

Heh.  You said it yourself - there are LAWS of economics.  Laws that the best Alchemists cannot prevent the consequences of when a society violates those laws.

The bill will always come due.

Yes the bill will eventually come due. And painfully so. I was being a little tongue and cheek with my previous statement

But our ability to print money out of thin air to fund all of this delays the inevitable. Doesn't stop. Just delays. And of course, there's the inflation risk. That works in the political class's favor as they can blame capitalism for the rising prices.

 

[XenaLee]

Don't lie to yourself.

This is not fighting.  What I am reading is the argument over how to surrender to tyranny, piecemeal and accept the tiny crumbs of liberty that were robbed from us by the Beast at Mordor on the Potomac, and blaming the Principled for refusing to surrender to 'the best soft-tyranny we can get votes for'.

And that's just it.  Capitulating (their word for it is "compromise") to non-conservative values is what it is.   There's no fight there.  It's the opposite of fight.

You would think.... that if he really thinks that it's an insult to be held accountable for his stance on this... that he would change his stance.  I'm betting that's never gonna happen.

[driftdiver]

@driftdiver

Well, I can't agree with you that researching candidates and deciding who to support is based on emotion, nor that every decision we make is emotional by default.

@CatherineofAragon
Of course not, because that would make you feel like you're doing something wrong.  Do facts and figures play into our decisions?  Yes of course but in the end humans are emotional creatures and emotions are a very important part of what we do.

 

[XenaLee]

The amount of blood spilled when that happens will dwarf anything we have ever experienced before.

Which is exactly why people on the right have been 'arming up' over the past eight years.  We know it's coming.  We just don't know the day or hour.   But we know the gimmedats will be rioting and looting and scavenging from anyone that has what they want.

[truth_seeker]

.. I want the most conservative bill that can be passed...,

My position. And most importantly, I do NOT want them to give up and quit, due to some schedule. Keep at it.

[INVAR]

Yes the bill will eventually come due. And painfully so. I was being a little tongue and cheek with my previous statement

But our ability to print money out of thin air to fund all of this delays the inevitable. Doesn't stop. Just delays. And of course, there's the inflation risk. That works in the political class's favor as they can blame capitalism for the rising prices.

Delays in the inevitable simply make the consequences, pain and misery much more dire and wholly horrifying and  engulfing than if this was arrested earlier.

I suspect that when the consequences of broken laws are finally visited on this country because the magicians and false gods can no longer stave off reality - the fall and crash is going to be so great and mighty - that there will be only dust left of this nation.

And I'm speaking from an historical, a biblical and economic stand points.

[INVAR]

Which is exactly why people on the right have been 'arming up' over the past eight years.  We know it's coming.  We just don't know the day or hour.   But we know the gimmedats will be rioting and looting and scavenging from anyone that has what they want.

Human nature.

It's ugly.

And soooo many want us to pretend and believe it does not apply here in this country.

[driftdiver]

Don't lie to yourself.

This is not fighting.  What I am reading is the argument over how to surrender to tyranny, piecemeal and accept the tiny crumbs of liberty that were robbed from us by the Beast at Mordor on the Potomac, and blaming the Principled for refusing to surrender to 'the best soft-tyranny we can get votes for'.

@INVAR
Then you aren't reading the right stuff.  Man you are a defeatist.  Seems like you WANT things to go down in flames and everyone to die.   

[musiclady]

@musiclady

I'm pretty sure that was said by someone here over a year ago but I'm not interested enough now to go find it. The fact is that many of us KNEW what Trump is all along but hoped for the best after he was elected.  I'm still doing that rather than coming out with my told you so book.

We don't have to say "I told you so."  Trump is telling them so all by himself....  :dx1:

[Sanguine]

@CatherineofAragon
Of course not, because that would make you feel like you're doing something wrong.  Do facts and figures play into our decisions?  Yes of course but in the end humans are emotional creatures and emotions are a very important part of what we do.

 

@Driftdriver, I've been following your argument, and I have to disagree.  Some of us usually make decisions based on emotion, and some of us frequently don't.  It's a long and difficult process to become able to be able to learn to discern the difference between what we want and what we should do, but it's very possible.  I think you're giving too much weight to emotion.

[musiclady]

@CatherineofAragon
Of course not, because that would make you feel like you're doing something wrong.  Do facts and figures play into our decisions?  Yes of course but in the end humans are emotional creatures and emotions are a very important part of what we do.

 

And look what a fine mess emotions have gotten us in this time.

Perhaps a little more thinking and a lot less feeling could have averted this disaster.   Perhaps?   

[musiclady]

@Driftdriver, I've been following your argument, and I have to disagree.  Some of us usually make decisions based on emotion, and some of us frequently don't.  It's a long and difficult process to become able to be able to learn to discern the difference between what we want and what we should do, but it's very possible.  I think you're giving too much weight to emotion.

I still maintain that no good decisions are made in anger.

That emotion was the prime mover in this election, and we will all pay the penalty for the thoughtlessness of a plurality of primary voters.

[Emjay]

Scripture disagrees with you.

And so do the Founders.

I stand in better company.

Scripture disagrees with everyone if you look hard enough.  The company you claim to stand in ... if they are like you ... would not have participated in any election, including George Washington.

You remind me of that joke about the drowning man who wanted God to save him but refused the boat and the helicopter that came to help.  He died and berated God for not saving him and God said, I sent you a boat and a helicopter.

Your statement that you stand in better company makes me seriously wonder who you stand with?

[corbe]

I still maintain that no good decisions are made in anger.

That emotion was the prime mover in this election, and we will all pay the penalty for the thoughtlessness of a plurality of primary voters.

   Truer words have never been typed @musiclady

[Maj. Bill Martin]

And that's just it.  Capitulating (their word for it is "compromise") to non-conservative values is what it is.   There's no fight there.  It's the opposite of fight.

I think agreeing to something that makes the status quo more liberal is giving in to non-conservative values.  I see that as different than compromising to make the status quo more conservative, even if it is not as conservative as you would like.