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Anyone remember Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver?
sneakypete:
--- Quote from: the_doc on March 08, 2017, 09:07:01 pm ---The Ruby Ridge standoff was first (August 21-August 30, 1992). The Waco Massacre came a few months later (February 28 -August 19, 1993).
The Ruby Ridge incident occurred near the end of the GHWB administration. The Waco debacle was in the first year of Clinton's administration.
The Ruby Ridge incident was absolutely disgusting, to be sure, but the Waco massacre was an order of magnitude more horrific. A sergeant with the Texas Rangers told me that David Koresh had been willing to surrender to the Texas Rangers, but the Feds refused to allow that. In other words, the Feds could have defused the situation, but they were not interested.
The only four Feds killed during the Waco siege were Secret Service agents who had formerly served on Clinton's Presidential Protection Detail. A lot of folks in Texas believe that the Waco debacle was a body-laundering operation for Clinton. The Ranger I talked to said that practically everything the Feds did in the siege and its aftermath and in the subsequent investigation was over-the-top crooked.
The Rangers hated the Feds at that time--and probably still don't trust them any further than they can spit.
--- End quote ---
I stand corrected on the time-line,and agree with you on Waco being even more horrific. What caused me to reverse the time line was the documentary last night said that Hourichi had also been a sniper at Waco.
<I>The Ranger I talked to said that practically everything the Feds did in the siege and its aftermath and in the subsequent investigation was over-the-top crooked.</I>
The Feebs at Waco tried to get the US Army Special Forces involved,so DA ordered the Special Warfare Center to send down a couple of observers to see what they needed and make suggestions. IIRC,one was a Colonel,one was a SGM,and there were a couple of SFC radio guys as well as a couple of SF Delta-type NCO's. Basically,they went down there,took a look around and talked with the feds,and then told them to go piss up a rope and went back to Bragg,where the Special Warfare Center legal office sent the WH an official statement outlining how and why what they were being told to do was un-Constitutional. That was the last the SWC heard of that.
They DID keep a couple of senior NCO's down there to babysit some classified electronics gear they were ordered to loan out to the feds,though. They had to because from previous experience they knew that anything they lent to the feds tended to get "lost" if there were no babysitters watching it,and senior SF NCO's aren't easy people to intimidate no matter what kind of badge you flash at them. These 3 or 4 SF NCO's babysitting,but NOT operating classified electronics,at Waco is what lead to the charges the active duty US Army was involved in the attack on the compound. They weren't.
skeeter:
--- Quote from: sneakypete on March 08, 2017, 09:23:42 pm ---I stand corrected on the time-line,and agree with you on Waco being even more horrific. What caused me to reverse the time line was the documentary last night said that Hourichi had also been a sniper at Waco.
--- End quote ---
Yes he was. From Wiki: Three of the twelve expended .308 Winchester shell cases that the Texas Rangers reported finding in the house were at Horiuchi's position. However, officials maintain that they could have been left behind from the earlier use of the house by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives snipers on February 28, 1993, and that it would be "nearly impossible" to match them to Horiuchi's rifle, as it had probably been rebarreled since that time.[11]
sneakypete:
--- Quote from: skeeter on March 08, 2017, 09:43:19 pm ---Yes he was. From Wiki: Three of the twelve expended .308 Winchester shell cases that the Texas Rangers reported finding in the house were at Horiuchi's position. However, officials maintain that they could have been left behind from the earlier use of the house by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives snipers on February 28, 1993, and that it would be "nearly impossible" to match them to Horiuchi's rifle, as it had probably been rebarreled since that time.[11]
--- End quote ---
@skeeter
The "been rebarreled" excuse is mostly bullbush. They could still match the head of the cartridge cases with the bolt face and the extractor.
Unless of course the Feeb armorer replaced the extractor and polished the bolt face to make sure there could be no comparisons.
Smokin Joe:
--- Quote from: the_doc on March 08, 2017, 09:07:01 pm ---The Ruby Ridge standoff was first (August 21-August 30, 1992). The Waco Massacre came a few months later (February 28 -April 19, 1993).
The Ruby Ridge incident occurred near the end of the GHWB administration. The Waco debacle was in the first year of Clinton's administration.
--- End quote ---
Thanks, Doc. That was what I remembered, too.
A number of Weaver's acquaintances were involved in White separatist or Supremacist movements. Because I had opposed gun control, I had a fellow bring me a copy of a copy of a copy of a tape made locally detailing the incident. Once I got past the rhetoric used, I realized what was going on. On the tape was included footage taken from a nearby ridge of a helo moving in with a suspended package below it that looked like an oil drum, and the narrator mentioned MOVE in Philly, and the incendiary that was dropped on the roof during that standoff.
It was also brought up that what began the incident was that Weaver was selling a couple of shotguns, and the Feds who came to buy them wanted them cut off "right there". Well Weaver apparently did as they asked, but "right there" was 1/8 inch too short to be legal, and he was threatened with prosecution or given the option of informing on his neighbors. Weaver refused to be an informant. When the warrant was issued and order to appear were sent out, Weaver apparently ignored them, which was what brought the people to snoop on his hill in the first place. After all, Federal Agencies do not respond well to people refusing their largesse (the 'deal'). Imho, this was entrapment from the git go, but it got much worse.
During the standoff, there were protesters on the road, across the creek from a meadow with the tree line on the other side. People who had access to the area afterwards said there were vacated machine gun positions in the treeline, facing the meadow, left over from the Federal siege. Had it not been for Bo Gritz and the protesters, there is a solid chance that Weaver and his entire family and Kevin Harris. An account of the events which pretty well coincidew with what I heard through various sources can be found here: http://www.survivalistboards.com/showpost.php?p=1248839
The folks I obtained that information from have moved away and I have lost contact with them, but that was an eye opener, THE eye opener, that really caused me to question Waco.
--- Quote ---The Ruby Ridge incident was absolutely disgusting, to be sure, but the Waco massacre was an order of magnitude more horrific. A sergeant with the Texas Rangers told me that David Koresh had been willing to surrender to the Texas Rangers, but the Feds refused to allow that. In other words, the Feds could have defused the situation, but they were not interested.
The only four Feds killed during the Waco siege were Secret Service agents who had formerly served on Clinton's Presidential Protection Detail. A lot of folks in Texas believe that the Waco debacle was a body-laundering operation for Clinton. The Ranger I talked to said that practically everything the Feds did in the siege and its aftermath and in the subsequent investigation was over-the-top crooked.
The Rangers hated the Feds at that time--and probably still don't trust them any further than they can spit.
--- End quote ---
Frank Cannon:
Anyone remember Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver?
Absolutely. They were a dynamic country music duo from the 60's...
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