Author Topic: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president  (Read 10364 times)

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Offline musiclady

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2017, 11:54:34 pm »

Because past historians did the same thing with Abraham Lincoln.   He too was a race obsessed Liberal Lawyer from Illinois.   They turned him into a "light worker"  same as they did Obama.   They white washed his history and turned him into a Hero.   Same as modern Historians have attempted to do with Obama.






And so too does it appear were past historians.   




750,000 people is also pretty horrific.

I'm sorry, but there still was no reason for this thread to degenerate into another battle between the North and the South.

btw, which "750,000" people are you talking about?  And how does that relate to the FACT that Obama was an America-hating, radical extremist who was a horrid President?
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2017, 12:28:34 am »
There are two points to make about the CW.....(1) the immediate cause of secession was slavery


Slavery was legal in the US for "Four Score and Seven Years",   so why would it suddenly be a cause for secession?   It was still legal in some Union states till 1865.   It lasted longer in the US than it did in the Confederacy.   


I think secession was more about the fact that the President was regarded as antagonistic to their culture,  their livelihood,  their economics,   and they probably expected him to use his "Pen and Telegraph"  to "executive order"  them to death,   the way a later day race obsessed Liberal Lawyer from Illinois did just recently. 



and (2) that was not the  reason why many Southerners fought.  No less a personage than Robert E. Lee was anti-slavery as was another Confederate general Patrick Cleburne. In fact, both generals late in the war proposed to the Confederate congress freeing slaves to gain more manpower. Their suggestions were turned down.
   


Most of them fought because they were invaded.   That generally gets people to fight,  no matter what the larger politics is about.   
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2017, 12:38:00 am »
There are two points to make about the CW.....(1) the immediate cause of secession was slavery and (2) that was not the  reason why many Southerners fought.  No less a personage than Robert E. Lee was anti-slavery as was another Confederate general Patrick Cleburne. In fact, both generals late in the war proposed to the Confederate congress freeing slaves to gain more manpower. Their suggestions were turned down.
While I am not an apologist for the institution of slavery, let me point out a mindset of the times.
First, slaves were property--not just in the United States of 1860, but had been in the entire world for as long as any could recall.
 
To suddenly tell property to leave, it is free, would be to summarily divest their owners not only of substantial investments, but would also remove the means of production from their business.
(Which eventually happened, but none speak of paying the owners reparations despite their loss of those significant investments).

It would be like taking the tractors and combines away from grain farmers in the Midwest, where a family farm might have equipment worth a couple million dollars to plant and harvest crops, or merely an ancient Fordson and a corn binder to harvest with, but in either case, the investment lost would be proportionally as large for the individual incurring the loss, the production lost would be nearly total.

Thus the smaller farmer with one one or two slaves would suffer proportionally with the much more rare owner of a large estate with many slaves, but the owner of more slaves would lose the most in dollar amounts.

Note, too, that the divestment would occur summarily, without trial, without compensation, which would be a clear violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment.
Quote
... nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

What might be assumed to be a modern question of involuntary servitude being a deprivation of liberty under the clause was settled because a slave was not a 'person', legally.

Recall, one had to be free, white, male, 21 years of age or older, and a property owner to vote.

Trying to sort the era out through the distorted lens of more modern worldviews will skew perspective, whether we agree with the fundamentals of that perspective or not.

How can one assert that economics were not the central issue? Northerners were willing to threaten the then foundations of much of the agrarian economy of the South, predicated on cash crops such as tobacco, and cotton which were labor intensive, all in order to maintain control of the shipments of those same crops to the world.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2017, 12:42:56 am »
I'm sorry, but there still was no reason for this thread to degenerate into another battle between the North and the South.
Ma'am, we aren't fighting, we're clarifying.  :laugh:
Quote
btw, which "750,000" people are you talking about?  And how does that relate to the FACT that Obama was an America-hating, radical extremist who was a horrid President?
I believe that was a reference to the casualties of the conflict. As for the latter question, Obama was a president who promoted division along ethnic, cultural, and to some extent geographical lines, too, but beneath it all, it was all about money.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2017, 01:06:07 am »
The civil war was fought over bacon.

Obama hates bacon.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2017, 01:11:43 am »


How can one assert that economics were not the central issue? Northerners were willing to threaten the then foundations of much of the agrarian economy of the South, predicated on cash crops such as tobacco, and cotton which were labor intensive, all in order to maintain control of the shipments of those same crops to the world.


I have come to realize it was about more than just control of the products.   It was also about suppressing Southern industry that might compete with Northern Industry.   Cutting out Northern Shipping would be a massive boon to the Southern Shipping industry.    Cutting out the traffic through New York would result in an estimated 40% increase in profits for the South immediately.   

This capital would be available to build new Industries in the South,  and these industries would supply steel and other products to the Midwest at a cheaper cost than the Northern industries of the time could manage. 


It was a big pile of economic worms that would have opened up for the North had they allowed the South to live up to it's economic potential.   Protectionism was keeping the profits heading North,  and without it a lot of industries in the North would have been badly damaged.   
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Online Bigun

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2017, 01:11:43 am »
Ma'am, we aren't fighting, we're clarifying.  :laugh:

I see it more as relating factual information you won't find in any PS history books.  But that's just me.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Online Bigun

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #82 on: March 01, 2017, 01:18:42 am »

I have come to realize it was about more than just control of the products.   It was also about suppressing Southern industry that might compete with Northern Industry.   Cutting out Northern Shipping would be a massive boon to the Southern Shipping industry.    Cutting out the traffic through New York would result in an estimated 40% increase in profits for the South immediately.   

This capital would be available to build new Industries in the South,  and these industries would supply steel and other products to the Midwest at a cheaper cost than the Northern industries of the time could manage. 


It was a big pile of economic worms that would have opened up for the North had they allowed the South to live up to it's economic potential.   Protectionism was keeping the profits heading North,  and without it a lot of industries in the North would have been badly damaged.

To fully understand one must understand who and what Abe Lincoln and his mentor Henry Clay were.  Neither of them ever met an "internal improvement "  (read corporate welfare) project they didn't like and that was the genisus of all of it.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #83 on: March 01, 2017, 01:18:42 am »
I see it more as relating factual information you won't find in any PS history books.  But that's just me.
Yep. Clarifying what has been muddied up for a long time.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Bigun

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #84 on: March 01, 2017, 01:19:42 am »
Yep. Clarifying what has been muddied up for a long time.

 888high58888
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #85 on: March 01, 2017, 01:21:54 am »
Bacon.

The control of pork bellies.

Civil war.

She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #86 on: March 01, 2017, 02:12:08 am »
To fully understand one must understand who and what Abe Lincoln and his mentor Henry Clay were.  Neither of them ever met an "internal improvement "  (read corporate welfare) project they didn't like and that was the genisus of all of it.


I believe the operative word is "Mercantilism",  or using the power of government to help businesses make money.   


It is not even all bad as a philosophy.   The Trouble just creeps in when it turns into cronyism,  which it eventually does. 



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Offline goatprairie

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2017, 04:05:07 am »

Slavery was legal in the US for "Four Score and Seven Years",   so why would it suddenly be a cause for secession?   It was still legal in some Union states till 1865.   It lasted longer in the US than it did in the Confederacy.   


I think secession was more about the fact that the President was regarded as antagonistic to their culture,  their livelihood,  their economics,   and they probably expected him to use his "Pen and Telegraph"  to "executive order"  them to death,   the way a later day race obsessed Liberal Lawyer from Illinois did just recently. 


   


Most of them fought because they were invaded.   That generally gets people to fight,  no matter what the larger politics is about.
Invaded? Hardly.  Where was the invasion? Ft. Sumter? They probably for the same reason many people fight....their neighbors, friends, kinfolk fought on the same side.
But many southerners, especially those in the mountains, remained loyal to the union.  They didn't feel they were invaded, and they didn't wish to fight for what they thought were the interests of the rich, slave-owning planters.

Offline goatprairie

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #88 on: March 01, 2017, 04:18:48 am »

People don't get this.   The South was about to crush Northern Industry.  Furthermore,  over time they would have gained all the states in the Midwest,  leaving a rump Union with increasingly declining power.   

The industrialists of the time could see the economic trend which was occurring.   Had they not gone to war,  within about 20 years,  many major Northern industries would have been put out of business.   


Corporate Lawyer Abraham Lincoln understood all too well the financial costs that would occur if the South were allowed to develop economically without interference.   He also understood that if the South started supplying goods to the Midwest States up the Mississippi,  eventually they too would fall into the Confederacy's orbit.
At the time of the start of the CW the single state of New York had twice the industrial production of the south. The latter was mostly still agrarian. The north had the population and the industries.  There was no way the south was going to overtake much less "crush" the north in industry.  The idea that the north started the war to inhibit southern industrial development is ludicrous.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #89 on: March 01, 2017, 04:21:19 am »
Invaded? Hardly.  Where was the invasion? Ft. Sumter?


Interesting thing about Ft. Sumter.   I just recently found out that Major Anderson was not assigned to Ft. Sumter.   He was assigned to Ft. Moultrie.   Ft. Sumter had never had a garrison in it's entire existence. 


Anderson spiked the cannons and burned the carriages at Ft. Moultrie,  which surprised the locals.   They had been told that the Ft. Would be given up as part of the separation,  and burning the Cannons seemed like a deliberate belligerent act.   


Anderson marched his men from Ft. Moultrie and decided to "take over"  Ft. Sumter.    The Charlestonians suddenly had what was apparently a hostile Military presence in a fort overlooking the entrance to their harbor.   They were of course surprised at this turn of events,  because they didn't understand why someone would take such hostile seeming actions.   





They probably for the same reason many people fight....their neighbors, friends, kinfolk fought on the same side.
But many southerners, especially those in the mountains, remained loyal to the union.  They didn't feel they were invaded, and they didn't wish to fight for what they thought were the interests of the rich, slave-owning planters.


In the revolutionary war,  only about 1/3 of the populace was involved in the independence movement,  and among them,  the people who fought were even fewer still.   


If I didn't want to fight,  I'd say something similar too.   Just as in the Vietnam war,  Cowardice was disguised as being "anti-war",   because nobody wanted to be thought a coward.   They just had "principles"  which were against "war".   


Funny thing,  after the draft was discontinued,  all the riots and demonstrations ground to a halt. 

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #90 on: March 01, 2017, 04:25:34 am »
Invaded? Hardly.  Where was the invasion? Ft. Sumter? They probably for the same reason many people fight....their neighbors, friends, kinfolk fought on the same side.
But many southerners, especially those in the mountains, remained loyal to the union.  They didn't feel they were invaded, and they didn't wish to fight for what they thought were the interests of the rich, slave-owning planters.

And great hay was made of that fact!  Little things like creating a new state within the borders of an existing one in DIRECT violation of the Constitution. That sort of thing. But the ends justify the means I guess! /s
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 04:43:54 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #91 on: March 01, 2017, 04:41:31 am »
At the time of the start of the CW the single state of New York had twice the industrial production of the south.


Fueled by Monopolistic laws that Favored New York as the single dominant trading center.   New York was pocketing 40% of all the Southern Trade value with Europe.   It dominated the Shipping industry because of the laws favoring Northern Shipping,  as well as the subsidies the Fed Gov was pumping into the Northern Shipping industries. 


Take away those millions from New York,  and take away the Shipping subsidies from the Fed Gov (payed for by the Southern states)  and take away the protectionist shipping laws,  and you would have seen  New York  grow more slowly  while Charleston grew more rapidly.   

New York had population because it had Money,  which it had because it was the dominant trade center of the Nation.   All that capital in New York paid for the industries that it developed. 


If the South had been allowed to secede in peace,   you would have seen the vast bulk of European trade shift 800 miles further South to Charleston.   Both the Europeans and the Southern states would make far more profits than they otherwise did,  and both would have been eager for even more trade. 


You can't  pump many millions of dollars into a port city economy without it having some economic impact for the area.    The increased capital would have financed new industries in the South,  and those industries would have been created out of the money lost to the northern industries.   







The latter was mostly still agrarian. The north had the population and the industries.


Because of the money earned through trade.   Move that south,  and eventually the populations and industries would have followed.   Tariffs in the north were something like 55%.  Tariffs in the South were something like 13%.    The South wouldn't have had prohibitions on Foreign shipping as did the Union laws protecting Northern shipping,   and foreign ships would have grown rich carrying cargo back and forth to Europe.   


The port of Charleston wouldn't catch up to New York over night,   but in 10 or 20 years,  it would definitely have been a major rival to New York in Wealth and development.   The Businessmen of the time could see what an economic threat it would eventually pose.   






There was no way the south was going to overtake much less "crush" the north in industry.  The idea that the north started the war to inhibit southern industrial development is ludicrous.


Till you look at the details.   Northern shipping was subsidized.   Union laws prevented foreign ships or crews from carrying cargo between US Ports,  and the tariff fees were much higher with foreign ships or crew.    The US FedGov gave the packet shipping industry (run out of New York)  millions ever year to deliver US Mail.   

Take away these (and other advantages)  bestowed upon Northern Industry by the Federal Government,  and the South would have become richer and richer,  at the cost of that very same money to the North.   


It is not a coincidence that the very first thing Lincoln did was to throw up an economic blockade of the South.   He had to at all costs prevent the Europeans from acquiring greater profits in Southern Markets,  because once they realized what kind of economic advantages they would have from trading directly with the South,   they would have urged their governments to support the Southern effort at independence.   


Did the blockade stop militarily advantageous cargo?   Did it stop cannons,  gunpowder or men from coming over to join Southern military forces?    Maybe,  but it seemed as if the South managed to fight along anyways with what was already in their states.    If it was intended to stop the armies on the ground from fighting,   it doesn't appear to have been very successful. 


But economically,   it was absolutely necessary.   
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #92 on: March 01, 2017, 07:49:34 am »
Invaded? Hardly.  Where was the invasion? Ft. Sumter? They probably for the same reason many people fight....their neighbors, friends, kinfolk fought on the same side.
But many southerners, especially those in the mountains, remained loyal to the union.  They didn't feel they were invaded, and they didn't wish to fight for what they thought were the interests of the rich, slave-owning planters.
Yes, Sumter was invaded by the troops leaving Ft. Moultrie.  Phillipi was the first land battlehttp://www.historynet.com/the-first-battle-of-the-civil-war.htm, in northwest Virginia. Maryland was invaded by elements of the Pennsylvania and Massachusetts militias (recall, if you will that the State Militias were, the State Armies--and that the several states had them for the defense of those States.) For Pennsylvania's and Massachusetts' armies to march through Maryland was indeed an invasion, and sparked the 'Pratt Street Riots' in 1861
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_riot_of_1861
 That article calls Maryland a "Union State", and while no bill of secession was ever passed by the legislature, the State was occupied by Union forces (Northern State Militias) for the duration. Note that Southern sentiment was strong, ME and DE had voted for Breckenridge, were slave states, and Maryland is south of the Mason-Dixon line, the standard dividing line between North and South. Had Virginia seceded sooner, Maryland might have also done so, and the conflict would have been different.
As for mountain folks and the war, I think your view is limited by those four ridges over from the Appalachians, who were illegally made into another state, torn from Virginia in the midst of the conflict, with callous disregard for the Constitution, which had been part of the problem all along. The view from the Shenandoah Valley was different than that you would have us believe. The war was brutal to the Great Valley, and I recall standing in one of the last surviving antebellum mills in the '70s, mere weeks before a 'mysterious' fire removed it from the landscape clearing the way for a real estate developer to proceed without the hindrance of an historic site. Most of the mills had been burned over 100 years earlier by invading troops, and those crops which could not be confiscated were burned, too.
http://www.vmi.edu/archives/civil-war-and-new-market/civil-war-cadet-life/
http://www.vmi.edu/archives/civil-war-and-new-market/battle-of-new-market/
Yes, the South was invaded, repeatedly, but the South was fighting a defensive war from the onset, the North a war of conquest.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 08:21:56 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #93 on: March 01, 2017, 08:05:26 am »
At the time of the start of the CW the single state of New York had twice the industrial production of the south. The latter was mostly still agrarian. The north had the population and the industries.  There was no way the south was going to overtake much less "crush" the north in industry.  The idea that the north started the war to inhibit southern industrial development is ludicrous.
The Tredegar Iron Works in Richmond was already the third largest iron works in the country at the start of hostilities. It produced cannon and railroad iron, among a host of other products, and continued to do so until the retreat from Richmond. Funny thing about foundaries and machine shops--they amount to a wish for more wishes. The crews working there consisted of a mix of immigrant and native, black and white, slave and freeman, working side by side. So, while industrialization had not had the time to develop it had had in the north, it was happening, in spite of the capital drain imposed by northern interests. That genie was out of the bottle, and the South had 'wished for more wishes'.
With the raw materials, too, that development would have led to the Northern interests being cut out of a very profitable loop, and development would have occurred as fast as it could have expanded. The threat to northern interests was very real.

Just because the images of the war leave one with views of things like the burned out railroad shops at Atlanta (wait, burned out railroad shops? that was industry at its metastasizing best, at least until burned) doesn't mean there wasn't industry there. Smoking ruins do little justice to the abilities of those who occupied those former edifices.

Why Atlanta? Because it was a railroad hub. Having a railroad hub is prima facie evidence of industry, and it will soon follow (as was seen further west, later) that with the railroad comes the means to access markets which lead to the sort of prosperity that enhances industrial development.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #94 on: March 01, 2017, 12:43:34 pm »
Great history lesson. With islamist obama's antics the second civil war in this country will be fought for the same reason.

Bacon.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Survey: Historians rank Obama 12th best president
« Reply #95 on: March 01, 2017, 01:06:43 pm »
Great history lesson. With islamist obama's antics the second civil war in this country will be fought for the same reason.

Bacon.
  :beer: :patriot: ...and the right to bring it home.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis