Author Topic: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming  (Read 8478 times)

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Offline montanajoe

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2016, 02:30:45 pm »
I'm going to be in the trenches on the side that is against a convention.

People thinking that the politicians of today can improve on what the founders blessed us with are sadly deluded in my opinion :shrug:
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 02:32:41 pm by montanajoe »

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2016, 02:33:36 pm »
What is the specific agenda for which this Convention would be convened?

It there anything specific, rather than flowery vague words?

Yes.  It's in the article.  They want $250,000.
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2016, 02:35:01 pm »
I have a few questions and have yet to get an answer to the first one.

What's wrong with the constitution we have?

As far as I can see, every constitutional amendment for the last 150 years or so have been unnecessary, damaging, or unnecessary and damaging.


Which ones? I can see the 16th, 17th, and the 18th being bad..
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2016, 02:55:51 pm »

Which ones? I can see the 16th, 17th, and the 18th being bad..

As far as I'm concerned we didn't need constitutional amendments to end slavery or grant women equality. They were already self evident or they certainly are to us today. However I suppose there will always be idiots who will never see all men as meaning both men and women. Kind of like the liberal confusion over the term "Shall not be infringed".




Offline Sanguine

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2016, 03:29:41 pm »
I agree with people saying this is dangerous. This could definitely run away from us too. Any changes could have effects we haven't considered yet.


Just tread carefully.

How could it be dangerous?  Any amendment still has to be ratified by 3/4 of the states.

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2016, 06:20:50 pm »
What is the specific agenda for which this Convention would be convened?

It there anything specific, rather than flowery vague words?

Here's a link to the wording of the resolution passed by Indiana:

http://iga.in.gov/legislative/2016/resolutions/senate/joint/14#document-9a75d2bd

And I've attached a PDF copy of the resolution passed by Tennessee.

[attachment deleted by admin]
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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2016, 06:26:54 pm »
Do you for one second believe that the "rights" current.y enjoyed by the people... abortion, same-sex marriage, free health care, etc would be wiped out by a Constitutional Convention?

The exact opposite would probably be the case, and all those rights would probably be enshrined in the new Constitution.

Hell... maybe even more.

You labor under a common misapprehension.  What's being called for isn't a "Constitutional Convention," to rewrite the entire Constitution, but a convention of states to propose amendments to the current Constitution, which would then have to be ratified by 38 states just like any other proposed amendments.  At the moment, only Congress has ever proposed amendments; this is the alternative method provided for doing so by the Constitution.  Of course Congress will never propose any limitations on the federal government's authority and overreach.  This is the only possible way to force the government back into its constitutional limitations.  Might it not work?  Of course it might not--nothing is ever absolutely guaranteed.  Is it our only chance?  That's pretty much definite.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2016, 06:30:32 pm »
You labor under a common misapprehension.  What's being called for isn't a "Constitutional Convention," to rewrite the entire Constitution, but a convention of states to propose amendments to the current Constitution, which would then have to be ratified by 38 states just like any other proposed amendments.  At the moment, only Congress has ever proposed amendments; this is the alternative method provided for doing so by the Constitution.  Of course Congress will never propose any limitations on the federal government's authority and overreach.  This is the only possible way to force the government back into its constitutional limitations.  Might it not work?  Of course it might not--nothing is ever absolutely guaranteed.  Is it our only chance?  That's pretty much definite.

Like a Gay Equal Rights Amendment you mean?
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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2016, 06:35:27 pm »
How?  @geronl, tell me how it could be dangerous.

I think the two major party nominees are all the evidence I need.

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2016, 06:36:22 pm »
Like a Gay Equal Rights Amendment you mean?

More like the ERA, which didn't get ratified.  Do you really think 38 states would approve the amendment you suggested?  And if they did, no other solution you might have proposed would have had a chance of success either.
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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2016, 06:37:06 pm »
I think the two major party nominees are all the evidence I need.

You do realize that they aren't evidence of anything at all having to do with an Article V convention, right?
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Online libertybele

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2016, 07:43:20 pm »
Sorry, but I have a feeling that a Convention of States will be a bad idea.  Just because it was promoted on Talk Radio doesn't mean it is a good idea.

Other than letting things remain status quo and allowing the Feds to slowly chip away at the rights of the States and the people within those states, what other means do you suggest? 
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Online libertybele

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2016, 07:45:15 pm »
More like the ERA, which didn't get ratified.  Do you really think 38 states would approve the amendment you suggested?  And if they did, no other solution you might have proposed would have had a chance of success either.

The purpose of the Convention of States is to constrain the overreach of the Federal legislators and return that power back to the States.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2016, 07:59:52 pm »
Other than letting things remain status quo and allowing the Feds to slowly chip away at the rights of the States and the people within those states, what other means do you suggest?

And, a CoS would shine a light on the erosion of our government, and start a very public discussion of the types of things we discuss here in this tiny corner of our universe.  It might get people thinking and those who already think might become willing to do things that rein in our unlawful government.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2016, 08:01:35 pm »
Other than letting things remain status quo and allowing the Feds to slowly chip away at the rights of the States and the people within those states, what other means do you suggest?

I sure would like to see an answer to this from the naysayers.  Come on, naysayers - what do you say?

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2016, 09:05:43 pm »
I sure would like to see an answer to this from the naysayers.  Come on, naysayers - what do you say?


Not a naysayer per se, just think caution is in order.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2016, 10:32:26 pm »
Either way the outcome is unpredictable, and considering the fact that liberals have won the popular vote four out the last five Presidential elections, the real possibilities of changes to the Constitution being diametrically opposite to what we want to see are very strong.
Amendment XXX: Strike everything, articles, amendments, and subsections after the word "WE" in the preamble. Insert "own your ass."

Just a little amendment...
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2016, 10:37:40 pm »
Amendment XXX: Strike everything, articles, amendments, and subsections after the word "WE" in the preamble. Insert "own your ass."

Just a little amendment...

I've always thought we strike everything after the first five words of Ammendment I.
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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2016, 10:50:08 pm »
I sure would like to see an answer to this from the naysayers.  Come on, naysayers - what do you say?

If you're a naysayer, you say, "nay", it's what you do.  If you want to save 15% or more...

Sorry.

I'm not really what you'd call a naysayer, I just don't think a CoS would do much good.  Are we going to add yet another ammendment saying, "no, really, we actually mean it" (I've always thought Ammendment X was pretty darn clear, and largely redundant, though admittedly I've never really understood why they wrote both IX and X)?  How do you limit the gov't by ammending an utterly ignored document which supposedly limits the gov't?

Your point about calling attention to gov't overreach might have merit.  Personally, I think the people that are going to pay attention are already paying attention.  The media certainly isn't going to help.  Though perhaps if we could find a guy with a huge mouth, small hands, and twitter account with a bunch of followers...

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2016, 11:15:55 pm »
I've always thought we strike everything after the first five words of Ammendment I.
That was just one indication of what an amendment can do, albeit extreme.

For instance, strike the words "of the people" from the Second Amendment, and the meaning changes. Little changes sometimes have big meaning. With the amount of programming that has been done to youth in the last 40-50 years of public education and mass media (and now social media), I would not consider any Right safe from being removed from the protected list, nor the meanings of those Rights enshrined in the Bill Of Rights safe from semantic tinkering that could materially change the meaning of the Amendment and the nature of the Right to be protected.

Already, people are proposing that the POTUS be allowed to propose a law which would stand until Congress either voted it down or it sunsetted after a fixed time. Incalculable economic damage or profit taking could be done in the space of a few days, runs on banks, markets limit down and closed, etc. There is a reason Congress has to pass a law, and not have laws enacted by edict.

The problem we have is that not only is the Federal Government doing far more than was ever intended, everyone is doing everyone else's job. You have Obama handing down edicts and apparently ordering nonfeasance, You have Executive Branch agencies writing tens of thousands of pages of regulations with the weight of law. You have a Supreme Court Chief Justice who REWROTE a law so he could rule in its favor. And a Congress which has largely abdicated its duty to legislate and write a budget.
We need not only to herd the Federal Government back within its Constitutional Constraints, but we need to reemphasize the separation of powers and reinstitute effective checks and balances.

No new material is necessary to do that, only the Will, and compliance with the Original Intent of the Constitution we already have.

Adding more rules isn't going to get compliance, it will only be like another gun law the murderer or armed robber will ignore with the other laws they already ignore.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline skeeter

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2016, 11:28:05 pm »
It is the constitutional way to rein in the federal government.  Talk radio wasn't around when the Constitution was written, yet they thought is was a good idea.

The fedgov is has been a leviathan gobbling up liberties and state authority for well over a hundred years as it is. They'll have it all in a matter of time.

Worrying about mischief that could be done in a Constitutional Convention is like worrying about water damage to your carpets caused by hoses that are putting out your blazing house.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2016, 02:25:39 am »
You labor under a common misapprehension.  What's being called for isn't a "Constitutional Convention," to rewrite the entire Constitution, but a convention of states to propose amendments to the current Constitution, which would then have to be ratified by 38 states just like any other proposed amendments.  At the moment, only Congress has ever proposed amendments; this is the alternative method provided for doing so by the Constitution.  Of course Congress will never propose any limitations on the federal government's authority and overreach.  This is the only possible way to force the government back into its constitutional limitations.  Might it not work?  Of course it might not--nothing is ever absolutely guaranteed.  Is it our only chance?  That's pretty much definite.

Okay. So what are the specific amendments the proponents of this convention, wish to pass?

And who thinks 38 states will pass anything, in particular? Hillary just won 20 states, which is enough to block measures favored by the "right?"

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Online Fishrrman

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2016, 02:44:24 am »
libertybele wrote:
"38 out of the 50 states are GOP; not necessarily conservative but not lead by liberals either which is a huge advantage and a great potential for success to return power back to the states.  We may not have this number of red states after the mid terms in 2018."

Fearless prediction:

There will be no more Constitutional Amendments passed by Congress that:
1. Protect the Constitution as originally intended, or
2. Serve the interests of traditional-minded Americans.

The country -- and the Congress -- is too divided for this to happen again.
Proposed amendments can no longer "make it through" Congressional approval.

However, a Convention of the States could produce amendments that might be ratified by the requisite number of states to achieve such a purpose.

I believe that in such a convention, the voices and influence of traditionally-minded Americans (and states) could overwhelm those of the left, completely shutting them out of influence or the ability to proffer their own amendments. It would be a fight, but a fight that could be won.

If conservative and traditionally-minded Americans want "a restoration" of the government of The Fathers, the only pathway to that objective will be through an Article V Convention of the States...

Offline Fantom

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2016, 02:44:27 am »
The fedgov is has been a leviathan gobbling up liberties and state authority for well over a hundred years as it is. They'll have it all in a matter of time.

Worrying about mischief that could be done in a Constitutional Convention is like worrying about water damage to your carpets caused by hoses that are putting out your blazing house.


Well said.  :beer:
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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Convention of States; Trench Warfare is Coming
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2016, 11:13:44 am »
Okay. So what are the specific amendments the proponents of this convention, wish to pass?

And who thinks 38 states will pass anything, in particular? Hillary just won 20 states, which is enough to block measures favored by the "right?"

You should visit the Convention of States website and look it over.  The answers to your questions have been laid out there, in detail.  As for what specific amendments, there are a number of proposals worth consideration.  But it's really quite premature to try to force this effort into specific language for anticipated amendments, as the main energy must go into getting the convention called for.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!