Author Topic: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?  (Read 3005 times)

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cuky

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Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« on: October 13, 2016, 01:55:52 pm »
Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
http://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2016/10/13/will-evangelical-leaders-now-reject-trump/

Today, I have to say we have lost our national virtue.

I’m sure some will say it’s been gone for much longer. It began slipping away when prayer was removed from schools and that void was filled with drugs and guns.

....

It’s an unbelievable figure. There was a time when Christians held a certain moral litmus test for those leaders they supported.

Nobody can be perfect, and often, those leaders would fall short, but few were so scandal-ridden that their deeds could be described as criminal.

Donald Trump and the past year has done more to hurt the Christian witness to the world than 100 Jimmy Swaggart/Jim Bakker moments.
,,,,,

Trump, on his own, could do nothing to damage the standing of Christianity in this country. When someone of his obvious moral shortcomings is held up as a brother in Christ and the choice of evangelical voters, however, Christians should be really uncomfortable.

They should object. Strongly.

........

Ralph Reed, of the Faith and Freedom Coalition is one of those “leaders.”

Reed joined others, such as Tony Perkins, of the Family Research Council, James Dobson, Focus on the Family founder, and Pat Robertson in circling the wagons recently, after the now-infamous audio of Trump declaring that his wealth and celebrity granted him certain lewd privileges with women.

Said Reed:

“Voters of faith are voting on issues like who will protect unborn life, defend religious freedom, create jobs, and oppose the Iran nuclear deal,” Faith and Freedom Coalition president Ralph Reed said in an email to BuzzFeed News. “Ten-year-old tapes of private conversation with a television talk show host rank very low on their hierarchy of concerns.”
Unbelievable. It’s as if character has no place in Reed’s world.

It’s particularly concerning when Reed’s own organization mentions marriage and family.
......

There were many who did realize the error of their ways, and in recognizing the importance of character in a leader, withdrew their support.

Wayne Grudem, an evangelical theologian, who gave early support to Trump, upon hearing the 2005 audio, withdrew his support and wrote a powerful apology message in doing so.

His vulgar comments in 2005 about his sexual aggression and assaults against women were morally evil and revealed pride in conduct that violates God’s command, “You shall not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14). I have now read transcripts of some of his obscene interviews with Howard Stern, and they turned my stomach. His conduct was hateful in God’s eyes and I urge him to repent and call out to God for forgiveness, and to seek forgiveness from those he harmed. God intends that men honor and respect women, not abuse them as sexual objects.
Now that is the proper response for a leader of faith, when confronted with what the audio of this incident revealed about who Trump is.

..........

How does their allegiance to an immoral, abusive man further the cause of Christ, which is the main objective of all Christians?

It doesn’t.

As has been said before elsewhere, Christians supporting and defending this man, for whatever reason, hurt their Christian witness. They forfeit any right to call out sinful behavior. They forfeit any right to minister to the broken and abused woman, who needs to have a meeting with the Healer. They forfeit any right to go into the streets, the bars, the prisons, and tell troubled young men that though what they do is wrong, there is forgiveness. They forfeit the right to talk about God’s plan for the family, when they’ve held up such a man as the leader of the free world.

At some point, it all becomes too much. There is no excuse to still support this man to be president, when there are better choices among our third parties.

These “faith” leaders show a lack of faith by letting fear of Hillary Clinton be the chain that keeps them loyal to a man such as Trump.

1 Corinthians 15:33 NIV says, “Do not be misled: ‘Bad company corrupts good character.’"

.........

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2016, 01:59:40 pm »
So it is more virtuous to let someone who actually endorses public financing of abortions win?

Uh, sure.  Damn evangelicals should be able to understand that without having to be told it by NeverTrumpers.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 02:00:08 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline musiclady

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2016, 02:05:20 pm »
Quote
As has been said before elsewhere, Christians supporting and defending this man, for whatever reason, hurt their Christian witness. They forfeit any right to call out sinful behavior. They forfeit any right to minister to the broken and abused woman, who needs to have a meeting with the Healer. They forfeit any right to go into the streets, the bars, the prisons, and tell troubled young men that though what they do is wrong, there is forgiveness. They forfeit the right to talk about God’s plan for the family, when they’ve held up such a man as the leader of the free world.

At some point, it all becomes too much. There is no excuse to still support this man to be president, when there are better choices among our third parties.

These “faith” leaders show a lack of faith by letting fear of Hillary Clinton be the chain that keeps them loyal to a man such as Trump

This is profound!

SO many women in this country have been abused and damaged for the rest of their lives because they were sexually molested, and those Christians who support Donald Trump in this are destroying their witness to some of the people most desperately in need of the healing of Jesus Christ (who did NOT support behavior like Trump's).

It has been shameful that ANY Christian "leader" continues to support Trump after these revelations.  It was, truthfully, shameful that any Christian "leader" supported him before, since it was well known that Trump was a bragging serial adulterer before he even ran.

There is great shame on the Christian community for making politics more important than morality, integrity, or Biblical principles.

When the Church becomes this flaccid and valueless, it is ripe for destruction.

May God have mercy.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2016, 02:06:47 pm »
So it is more virtuous to let someone who actually endorses public financing of abortions win?

Uh, sure.  Damn evangelicals should be able to understand that without having to be told it by NeverTrumpers.

Trump supports abortion just as much as Hillary.

There is no "lesser" between these two VERY unchristian, corrupt liberals.

And there is great shame on the Evangelicals who have turned a blind eye to the evil Trump, regardless of whatever excuse they come up with to defend it.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline mirraflake

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2016, 02:13:27 pm »
Trump did say his position on abortion changed over the years to a pro life stance and he said absolutely hates  partial birth.

Hillary? Not so much.


Offline musiclady

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2016, 02:16:27 pm »
Trump did say his position on abortion changed over the years to a pro life stance and he said absolutely hates  partial birth.

Hillary? Not so much.

Trump lies.

ALL the time.

He's a pro-abortion liberal.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline TomSea

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2016, 02:42:37 pm »
Jerry Falwell Jr.:

Quote
Liberty University students protest association with Trump
Quote
“Jesus said ‘Judge not, lest ye be judged.'” Falwell wrote in an essay for The Post. “Let’s stop trying to choose the political leaders who we believe are the most godly because, in reality, only God knows people’s hearts. You and I don’t, and we are all sinners.”

Quote
During the Republican primary, Trump won only about 8 percent of the vote in Liberty’s voting precinct, while Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) won 44 percent and Cruz won 33 percent.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/10/12/liberty-is-not-trump-u-students-protest-donald-trump/

The primary season is over; We did what we could do get oine of the other candidates elected; I'm sure not going to lay down for the 3rd term of the most anti-Christian presidency ever and vote for Clinton.

Online Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2016, 02:47:49 pm »
Trump supports abortion just as much as Hillary.

Trump has consistently opposed public financing.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2016, 03:05:42 pm »
Trump has consistently opposed public financing.

And yet, Trump is solidly pro-choice, including partial birth abortion.

And he lies about everything, all the time.....

Trusting a pro-abortionist on abortion is unwise.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline mirraflake

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2016, 03:09:58 pm »
And yet, Trump is solidly pro-choice, including partial birth abortion.



No, he said his views has changed and he is definitely against partial birth.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2016, 04:21:14 pm »
No, he said his views has changed and he is definitely against partial birth.

He's said a lot of things he didn't mean.

He's been on both sides of every single issue out there.

Time to start thinking about whether or not you should believe the guy......
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline TomSea

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2016, 04:22:27 pm »
Reject Trump and vote for the Christian Hate Party, the Democrats, yeah, sure.

Offline dfwgator

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2016, 04:24:54 pm »
He's said a lot of things he didn't mean.

He's been on both sides of every single issue out there.

Time to start thinking about whether or not you should believe the guy......

Well at least that means sometimes he's on our side,  can't say that about Hillary.

Offline dfwgator

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2016, 04:29:15 pm »
LOL.  Actually it means he is ALWAYS lying.  A liar is never on my side.

As are 99.9% of all politicians.

Online Hoodat

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2016, 04:32:36 pm »
Trump did say his position on abortion changed over the years to a pro life stance and he said absolutely hates  partial birth.

Trump also said that he supports subsidizing the abortion industry with taxpayer dollars.  Regardless of what Trump's personal view of abortion may be, as a political candidate, I am only interested in where he will direct my tax dollars.  And because of that, I can never support his candidacy.
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2016, 04:37:09 pm »
Someone's griping about Trump and Evangelicals??  Because of some kids at Liberty U? Story originating from WaPo or NYT?

 888ohnoes

Oh, and where is the criticism of the Clinton's and their outright displays of anti-Christian sentiments; especially against Evangelicals and Catholics?

 22222frying pan

Offline musiclady

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2016, 04:41:33 pm »
Well at least that means sometimes he's on our side,  can't say that about Hillary.

Can't say that about Trump either.

His personal views on social issues are hard left, just like Hillary's, and he lies about practically everything.

He can't be trusted just because he's pretending to be a Republican.

Thinking he's ever "on our side" is foolishness.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2016, 07:38:00 pm »
No, he said his views has changed and he is definitely against partial birth.

He was also for a wall and kicking all Muslims out of the country before he changed his stance on that.

Just sayin...
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Offline Applewood

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2016, 08:02:43 pm »
It is true that some people evolve.  Hell, at one time I really didn't care about homosexuality, abortion and all the other social issues.  But that was when I was young and dumb.  Today, I'm old and dumb.  But over the years, I came to realize that these behaviors are bringing down the America I love and the rest of the world.  I've come to realize the damage they have done to our morality.  They are an abomination and even worse, they lead to other abominations.  For example, now that abortion is "acceptable," is it going to be OK to euthanize the elderly, disabled and the sick?  Will "gay marriage" lead to acceptance of pedophilia, bestialiy or worse?

But I can't trust that Trump has "evolved."  He lies.  He flip flops.  He might say today he opposes abortion, but tomorrow he might embrace it.   And Trump still has numerous godless Democrats for friends and associates.  Even most of his children are Democrats (and the son who is a Republican is hardly conservative). And that list of potential, conservative SCOTUS is subject to change or may be discarded altogether.

This is the guy who became famous, not for his supposed success in business,  but as a star of his own "reality TV show."  Only the low IQ voters believe reality TV shows are real.  These shows have made Trump into a well known con artist.  He has been conning people for so long, he could tell me the sun is out and I wouldn't believe him.  Trump just can't be trusted.   


Offline musiclady

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2016, 10:13:56 pm »
It is true that some people evolve.  Hell, at one time I really didn't care about homosexuality, abortion and all the other social issues.  But that was when I was young and dumb.  Today, I'm old and dumb.  But over the years, I came to realize that these behaviors are bringing down the America I love and the rest of the world.  I've come to realize the damage they have done to our morality.  They are an abomination and even worse, they lead to other abominations.  For example, now that abortion is "acceptable," is it going to be OK to euthanize the elderly, disabled and the sick?  Will "gay marriage" lead to acceptance of pedophilia, bestialiy or worse?

But I can't trust that Trump has "evolved."  He lies.  He flip flops.  He might say today he opposes abortion, but tomorrow he might embrace it.   And Trump still has numerous godless Democrats for friends and associates.  Even most of his children are Democrats (and the son who is a Republican is hardly conservative). And that list of potential, conservative SCOTUS is subject to change or may be discarded altogether.

This is the guy who became famous, not for his supposed success in business,  but as a star of his own "reality TV show."  Only the low IQ voters believe reality TV shows are real.  These shows have made Trump into a well known con artist.  He has been conning people for so long, he could tell me the sun is out and I wouldn't believe him.  Trump just can't be trusted.

 goopo
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline American Faith Today

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2016, 12:15:53 am »
Not to Trump's level.  Hillary is, but then I reject her also.

If we throw our hands up and say all politicians have hideous character so it does not matter that they lie and cheat and use their power to dominate women...etc....then the republic is dead.  I will not give up.  It is my duty to only vote for people of good character.

"In selecting men for office, let principle be your guide. Regard not the particular sect or denomination of the candidate, look to his character. The scriptures teach that rulers should be men who rule in the fear of God, able men, men of truth, hating covetousness. It is to the neglect of this rule that we must ascribe the multified frauds, breaches of trust, and embezzlement of public property which tarnish the character of our country and disgrace government. When a citizen gives his vote to a man of known immorality, he abuses his civic responsibility, he sacrifices not only his interest, but that of his neighbor; he betrays the interest of his country." Noah Webster, 1823

Thank you for the Noah Webster quote.  I used it on Facebook and broke down the Exodus 18:21 verse to a Christian who's voting for Trump as well in this manner.

Does Trump lead a life that shows he respects God in word and deed? Not that we can tell. Although, people can and certainly should pray that he one day will. Is he an "able man"? Well, we know he gets bored and loses focus a lot. He's admitted as much. We know he doesn't read and hasn't thus read the Constitution. We know he's made some REALLY asinine and downright scary statements regarding the First Amendment, committing war crimes, abandoning our allies, starting trade wars, and puffing up his own intellect. Is he a man of truth? His lies have been well documented. And he's lived a life, quite frankly, of nothing but covetousness, whether it's a lust for money (actually of course the root of all evil) or coveting his neighbor's wife. So as far as I can tell, Donald Trump doesn't meet one qualification that God gave us in picking leaders to rule over us. And for me, I don't want to be in disobedience to God there.

Offline mountaineer

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2016, 12:27:27 am »
FWIW
Quote
Evangelical backlash against Trump grows
Campaign 2016 | The candidate’s remarks and new allegations of sexual assault garner fresh criticism
by J.C. Derrick
Posted 10/13/16, 07:54 pm
WORLD Magazine - EXCERPTED

Most conservative evangelicals have given GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump a long leash this election season, but the past week’s revelations were the breaking point for some, including theologian Wayne Grudem, who renounced Trump after previously calling him the “morally good choice” in the election.

Following WORLD’s call for Trump to drop out of the race, John Piper tweeted, “Of course, Trump should step down as Olasky and Grudem say. So should Hillary.”

Albert Mohler, president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, told CNN, “Evangelicals are going to have to ask a huge question: Is it worth destroying our moral credibility to support someone who is beneath the baseline level of human decency? ... That’s a far bigger question than the 2016 election.”   ...

ast month WORLD’s regular survey of evangelical influencers found more than half still refused to support Trump. This week the Barna Group released a survey showing 43 percent of evangelicals rejected both Trump and Democrat Hillary Clinton.

But Liberty University president Jerry Falwell Jr., whose father led calls for then-President Bill Clinton’s resignation in 1998, has staunchly and actively defended Trump on social media and in interviews. He told CNN he would support Trump even if the new allegations were true: “We aren’t electing a pastor.”

A group of Liberty students called Liberty United Against Trump, though, released a sharp statement decrying the university’s association with the controversial businessman: “Trump does not represent our values, and we want nothing to do with him. … Not only is Donald Trump a bad candidate for president, he is actively promoting the very things that we as Christians ought to oppose.”  ...
Rest of article
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2016, 12:45:09 am »

It’s an unbelievable figure. There was a time when Christians held a certain moral litmus test for those leaders they supported.

Nobody can be perfect, and often, those leaders would fall short, but few were so scandal-ridden that their deeds could be described as criminal.

Donald Trump and the past year has done more to hurt the Christian witness to the world than 100 Jimmy Swaggart/Jim Bakker moments.
,,,,,

Trump, on his own, could do nothing to damage the standing of Christianity in this country. When someone of his obvious moral shortcomings is held up as a brother in Christ and the choice of evangelical voters, however, Christians should be really uncomfortable.

They should object. Strongly.

........

How does their allegiance to an immoral, abusive man further the cause of Christ, which is the main objective of all Christians?

It doesn’t.

As has been said before elsewhere, Christians supporting and defending this man, for whatever reason, hurt their Christian witness. They forfeit any right to call out sinful behavior. They forfeit any right to minister to the broken and abused woman, who needs to have a meeting with the Healer. They forfeit any right to go into the streets, the bars, the prisons, and tell troubled young men that though what they do is wrong, there is forgiveness. They forfeit the right to talk about God’s plan for the family, when they’ve held up such a man as the leader of the free world.

And now all of you know and understand exactly how THIS happened:

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline musiclady

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2016, 12:54:23 am »
FWIWRest of article

Great article mountaineer. Thanks for posting.

Piper is in the denomination i grew up in so I especially appreciate his comments.

They both should step down!
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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Re: Will Evangelical Leaders Now Reject Trump?
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2016, 04:01:43 am »
Trump did say his position on abortion changed over the years to a pro life stance and he said absolutely hates  partial birth.

Hillary? Not so much.

Must be why during this campaign for president Trump said his sister judge would be a great Supreme Court Justice.  The sister who supported partial birth abortion in court.
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.