ABC: RNC Considering Options If Trump Drops Out

[sitetest]

Actually, yes it is. 

Especially when Luis has delineated his factual reasons for believing Jeb was a good Governor.   You may not agree with those reasons, but it is a huge, and erroneous leap to assume that the reason he thinks Jeb governed as a Conservative is that he is of Cuban descent.

Is it fair for me to assume that since you hate the Bushes so much it is because you are a racist and hate people of Latino heritage?  Is it fair for me to assume that you hate Jeb because of the ethnicity of his wife?   Seriously...... would that be fair??

Is it fair for you to assume that because I have a Swedish heritage that I support socialism?  Is it fair for you to assume that because I am female, that I want Hillary to be President?

What you did to Luis was to make an unfair and inaccurate assumption based on your own biases, and you have thus far not been able to defend your comments with logic or reason.

In answer to the bolded questions, in this case, the relevant question isn't "is it fair?" but rather, "is it TRUE?"

There is more than a stream of racism amongst supporters of the orange a$$hoIe.

[r9etb]

Do you vote for someone just because they're white?

Is that how you decide how to cast your vote?

You're being too sensitive.  I really didn't understand what you were trying to convey, and was wondering if you meant what I suggested.

[musiclady]

In answer to the bolded questions, in this case, the relevant question isn't "is it fair?" but rather, "is it TRUE?"

There is more than a stream of racism amongst supporters of the orange a$$hoIe.

Good point.  I suppose I used the word "fair" because it's such a common question these days.

The obvious point is that assuming things about others is a dangerous game, and when it's turned around on people, they don't tend to like it much.

@JustPassinThru, just in asking the question to Luis made some assumptions that were neither fair, nor true.  If I make the same assumptions about him, I would guarantee there would be a negative response.

[chae]

I really didn't like Jeb Bush.  Policy aside, I got a kind of "Don't you know who my family is?  I deserve this based on that", from him
To be fair, I also got that vibe much more from Al Gore, the Kennedy's and the Cuomo's as well.  I think his stance on immigration is insanity.  But I would vote for him in a heartbeat over Trump and Hilary. 
Also, I felt really bad for him considering the way TOS posters would just pile on him, and they rarely attacked his policy, it was really personal and mean.   

[musiclady]

You're being too sensitive.  I really didn't understand what you were trying to convey, and was wondering if you meant what I suggested.

Maybe this would be a good point to consider that racism actually does exist among some Conservatives, and assumptions based on ethnicity (or gender) can reveal that.

I think sometimes there are those who react negatively to the left's making everything about race to the point where they ignore that it actually exists, and is a problem in this country (and everywhere).

Luis is extremely capable of speaking for himself, but perhaps what you label "sensitivity" is actually the reality of having people make wrong assumptions about him because of his name.

For me, the idea that he would support Jeb Bush simply because of his name and not because of policy agreements is bordering on the absurd, and quite possibly the result of someone's distaste for people of Latino backgrounds.

At any rate, I think it's healthy to have the discussion, and perhaps we should talk about the reality more among Conservatives rather than dismissing the issue as something the left dreamed up to create a victim class.

[sneakypete]

And he's incompetent or worse.  What's a party to do.....?  Go along with him regardless, because he's The Leader? 

I seem to recall you have Cuban connections.  Doesn't that sound to you rather like Castro's government?

@r9etb  @Luis Gonzalez

Not to mention a couple of guys with the first names Benito and Adolph.

[sneakypete]

http://nationalreport.net/sarah-palin-trump-earned-purple-heart-fighting-lamestream-media-war/

Parody site but I think it is something she might have said, were she not out of contact with civilization in Alaska.

 

@geronl

Remember when we all thought McLunatic was the crazy one?

[Smokin Joe]

Do you vote for someone just because they're white?

Is that how you decide how to cast your vote?

Actually, I prefer the 'blind taste test challenge' approach. Take the assembled positions of the candidates on the issues, rank the issues in order of importance, and see who comes closest to my position.

It isn't easy, necessarily, to ignore who is who, but if you did the above on the basis of verified stances on the issues and the candidates, when revealed, were credible, you'd have your person to back, second place, etc.

I had been looking forward to winnowing through the various candidates, hashing over which positions stated accurately reflected past performance, etc. this primary past while I was posting at TOS>

Needless to say, I expected better there and was bitterly disappointed when by mid February the Hit Squads had formed to batter anyone who supported anyone other than Trump. That place went to Hell in a hand basket fast after that.

Jeb's record is impressive as governor, but people do not trust him on the illegal and even sanctioned immigration issue. What actions or statements of his would you think would provide reason for that?

No matter how many illegals are deported, and especially if the border is secured, immigration (legal) is an issue that must be examined, too. Whether quotas, visas, etc. are of the appropriate amount from the specific countries of origin, vetting processes, or the issue of whether they should be granted at all, is something that must be addressed.

[JustPassinThru]

That's barking so far up the wrong tree you are in a completely different forest. It's Luis you are talking about here. He loves arguing, it's his hobby, and would never shut down a thread.

Having said that, I took the reference to be "You know something of despots and all around shits from personal/family experience - what's your take?" 

No.

There are professional and quasi-professional propagandists and Thought Managers - who work to silence "offensive" speech, ideas, concepts.  This is how.

POINTING OUT the racialist nature of someone in public life or of a pressure group, be they this Preezy with his love for Moslems, or the Bush family with their frantic pushing to open the borders to Latinos, or of BLM with their demands for special treatment based on race...pointing this OUT is not attacking based on race.

It's identifying a salient fact.

I don't know who Luis is.  It's not really relevant except that he's pushing for Bush, and there is no other apparent logical reason for it.  I'm not a racialist (yup, I just lost this argument just saying that  ) and I supported another candidate with a Latino name.  Cruz.  I even defended him using case law against the DISHONEST Trump argument that Cruz was ineligible for the office.

THAT is how much I worry about Latinos coming in and messing up the joint.  I don't - I worry about non-Americans who have not been screened, who have no intention of assimilating, who are welcomed BECAUSE of race, alien religion or ethnicity.  And I worry about the politicians, and the political dynasties, who wish to smite us with this plague.

[JustPassinThru]

Actually, yes it is. 

Especially when Luis has delineated his factual reasons for believing Jeb was a good Governor.   You may not agree with those reasons, but it is a huge, and erroneous leap to assume that the reason he thinks Jeb governed as a Conservative is that he is of Cuban descent.

Is it fair for me to assume that since you hate the Bushes so much it is because you are a racist and hate people of Latino heritage?  Is it fair for me to assume that you hate Jeb because of the ethnicity of his wife?   Seriously...... would that be fair??

Is it fair for you to assume that because I have a Swedish heritage that I support socialism?  Is it fair for you to assume that because I am female, that I want Hillary to be President?

What you did to Luis was to make an unfair and inaccurate assumption based on your own biases, and you have thus far not been able to defend your comments with logic or reason.

"Good" reasons versus real reasons.

I'm not going to work to defend my take that JEB! is nothing but a cipher.  It's self-evident - he stands out in only one way, in his UTTER CONTEMPT for conservatives and the Tea Party.  He doesn't think we're smart enough to run our local schools and he's angry that we don't see the BRILLIANCE in turning this nation into another Latin American utopia.

And let us not forget that he told us, condescendingly, how the MS13 gang members come here and kill and rape out of "love."

I shouldn't have to defend my take.  It was shared by all but three percent of voting Republicans.  And I'm not going to be cowed into silence when persons here try to make my OBJECTING to racialist policies, RACISM.

[musiclady]

"Good" reasons versus real reasons.

I'm not going to work to defend my take that JEB! is nothing but a cipher.  It's self-evident - he stands out in only one way, in his UTTER CONTEMPT for conservatives and the Tea Party.  He doesn't think we're smart enough to run our local schools and he's angry that we don't see the BRILLIANCE in turning this nation into another Latin American utopia.

And let us not forget that he told us, condescendingly, how the MS13 gang members come here and kill and rape out of "love."

I shouldn't have to defend my take.  It was shared by all but three percent of voting Republicans.  And I'm not going to be cowed into silence when persons here try to make my OBJECTING to racialist policies, RACISM.

Oh, for heaven's sake!  NO one is trying to cow you into silence.  Stop being a drama queen!

As for "I shouldn't have to defend my take"........... why not?  We ALL have to "defend our take" on things with reason and logic, and facts.

Luis has presented facts as to Jeb's governance in FL.   You have objected to those facts with things Jeb has said and done after he was no longer Governor.  Ergo, you are arguing a different matter.

It's clear you have a visceral disgust for everyone with the last name Bush.  You've made that crystal clear.   But everyone here doesn't agree with you, so you need to make your point mentally, and not emotionally.

People's thoughts and opinions here diverse, not monolithic.  If you don't like having to defend your views, perhaps you would prefer to "pass thru" to a place where everyone marches in lockstep.

It's not going to happen here.

[musiclady]

I'm not going to cow you into silence.  I'm just going to say that if you or I or anyone is going to argue from the perspective that Latinos and anyone closely associated with them are automatically biased in the immigration debate then we essentially take from them their First Amendment right to participate.  Unless they agree with us they are biased and therefore irrelevant.  It is not only wrong, it would eventually bite us back. 

It is the same thing the left does when they label conservative argument as hate or as biased and therefore should not even be allowed in the discussion -- or are at least automatically illegitimate.  I am against that as it uses labeling to rob some people of their full participation in the debate.

So make your case that we have a huge immigration problem, that Jeb is a bum of a guy, that he is all wrong about the issues and that you feel betrayed by him.  I am only against the shortcut logical fallacy that one person's ethnicity makes him automatically biased and wrong.

Before he'll stop arguing against that, he'll have to admit that it is exactly what he did to Luis.

And I'm betting that's not going to happen.

[JustPassinThru]

I'm not going to cow you into silence.  I'm just going to say that if you or I or anyone is going to argue from the perspective that Latinos and anyone closely associated with them are automatically biased in the immigration debate then we essentially take from them their First Amendment right to participate.  Unless they agree with us they are biased and therefore irrelevant.  It is not only wrong, it would eventually bite us back. 

It is the same thing the left does when they label conservative argument as hate or as biased and therefore should not even be allowed in the discussion -- or are at least automatically illegitimate.  I am against that as it uses labeling to rob some people of their full participation in the debate.

So make your case that we have a huge immigration problem, that Jeb is a bum of a guy, that he is all wrong about the issues and that you feel betrayed by him.  I am only against the shortcut logical fallacy that one person's ethnicity makes him automatically biased and wrong.

Hmmm.  I'm objecting to JEB! because I don't like Latinos? 

Objecting to JEB! Bush, so WASPish he wears yellow stripes...but supporing Cruz.

I'm objecting to racialism in any shape, manner or form.  I object to wholesale invasion by a favored racial-ethnic group - bypassing law - because it's what the self-loathing WASP dweeb scion wants.

I'm objecting to supporting a candidate for President who wants/wanted the Party Insiders to jigger the rules that he could run "around" the party base.  I'm objecting to a candidate who wants to get in the General without his party's support, so that ILLEGAL ALIEN VOTERS can elect him.

I have to defend this?  You think this is neato-keeno?

WHAT was JEB! doing between his vacating the Governor's office and last fall?  Besides growing pudgy, I mean.  He was doing NOTHING - he had a no-show job with an investment-banking outfit.  Where is his expertise in economic or banking?  The "job" was the same function as Her Hillaryness' speeches - a way for Cronies to channel money to future Presidents on on the come; a present payment against future repayments.

He's as dirty as Cankles - just more adroit.

I already covered Luis' claimed accomplishments.  THE STATE LEGISLATURE passed those laws; and the economy was going well.  In Florida and everywhere else, excepting Illinois and New York and a few other liberal sumps.  Bush didn't screw it up; mostly, probably because the state legislature didn't give him the opportunity with crackpot bills that interfered with individual initiative.

That is why I called him a "placeholder."  He did nothing.  Nothing was what was called for - good on him.

That is not the situation we are in today.  We don't need a fat, sloppy, vacuous scion...and I don't care if his name is Trump or Bush.

[JustPassinThru]

Before he'll stop arguing against that, he'll have to admit that it is exactly what he did to Luis.

And I'm betting that's not going to happen.

Are you always so eager to shut down frank discussion damning racialists and what they do?

[sneakypete]

@musiclady   @RAT Patrol


So make your case that we have a huge immigration problem, that Jeb is a bum of a guy, that he is all wrong about the issues and that you feel betrayed by him.  I am only against the shortcut logical fallacy that one person's ethnicity makes him automatically biased and wrong.

Sorry to interrupt,but I think there is an important message here too many of us are overlooking,and I see the quote above as setting the stage to address this.

Your ethnicity no more makes you wrong on any political issue than it does to MAKE YOU RIGHT on any political issue. I personally don't give a damn if you are polka-dotted. I will agree with you when I think you are right,and slam you when I thing you are wrong.

I am bringing this up due to the trend over the last few years to shout down anyone that is white BECAUSE he or she is white by calling them a Nazi,Bigot,Kluxxer,racist,etc,etc,etc,while at the same time the same people making these charges will have a fit if you dare even suggest someone who identifies themselves as someone who in NOT white  or is Jewish or Muslim is biased or bigoted.

If you can't stand up on your hind feet and defend your statements or stands without falling back on the race card or the religion card,you have nothing valid to say and just need to shut the hell up.

[Luis Gonzalez]

You're being too sensitive.  I really didn't understand what you were trying to convey, and was wondering if you meant what I suggested.

You were the one who suggested that I may like Castro, weren't you?

What was that comment based on?

[sneakypete]

Good point.

How did you know what I look like?

@RAT Patrol

I have a vivid imagination is one way to say it.

[Emjay]

What a way to ruin what was a great thread!  I was enjoying the dream of Trump getting out of the race and the ponderance of who would replace him.  I was sad to see the thread go off topic as it did.

I'm with chae.  I am NOT a Yeb! fan due to his pro-illegal immigration stance, but I'd crawl over dead, oozing bodies and burning hellfire to get to the ballot box to vote for him over Trump.  IMO, he is a good, but misguided man. He's not CRAZY INSANE at least.  He's not the Hildabeast.

For those that are going to claim I am a racist because I am vehemently and unashamedly anti-illegal immigration, you might be surprised at my family's ethnicity.  ;)  So please cut the "heritage" and "ethnicity" crap.  Who cares?  We are Americans.  Can we get past this please?

Amen.  Really good post.  I especially like the crawl over dead, oozing bodies line.  I would be right behind you.

[musiclady]

Are you always so eager to shut down frank discussion damning racialists and what they do?

Do you always make things up out of whole cloth like this??

In no way, shape or form did I "shut down frank discussion."  In fact, I contributed to it.

I was just defending someone I know (Luis) against someone I don't know (you), and stating what I think.

It seems that you want this discussion to go your way, and no way else.

So be it.   It doesn't really matter what you think.  But your observation skills seem to be a tad off, so you might want to regroup.   

[musiclady]

What a way to ruin what was a great thread!  I was enjoying the dream of Trump getting out of the race and the ponderance of who would replace him.  I was sad to see the thread go off topic as it did.

I'm with chae.  I am NOT a Yeb! fan due to his pro-illegal immigration stance, but I'd crawl over dead, oozing bodies and burning hellfire to get to the ballot box to vote for him over Trump.  IMO, he is a good, but misguided man. He's not CRAZY INSANE at least.  He's not the Hildabeast.

For those that are going to claim I am a racist because I am vehemently and unashamedly anti-illegal immigration, you might be surprised at my family's ethnicity.  ;)  So please cut the "heritage" and "ethnicity" crap.  Who cares?  We are Americans.  Can we get past this please?

I don't know of a single person who would claim you're a racist for vehemently and unashamedly opposing illegal immigration.

In fact, I don't know a single person on this forum who isn't in agreement with you on that.

Some times a healthy discussion is a good thing, and IMO, for the most part that's exactly what this has been.

[musiclady]

Sometimes there is value in venting.  There have been some very good statements come out of it.  Yours for example.

Completely agree.   

[Smokin Joe]

What a way to ruin what was a great thread!  I was enjoying the dream of Trump getting out of the race and the ponderance of who would replace him.  I was sad to see the thread go off topic as it did.

I'm with chae.  I am NOT a Yeb! fan due to his pro-illegal immigration stance, but I'd crawl over dead, oozing bodies and burning hellfire to get to the ballot box to vote for him over Trump.  IMO, he is a good, but misguided man. He's not CRAZY INSANE at least.  He's not the Hildabeast.

For those that are going to claim I am a racist because I am vehemently and unashamedly anti-illegal immigration, you might be surprised at my family's ethnicity.  ;)  So please cut the "heritage" and "ethnicity" crap.  Who cares?  We are Americans.  Can we get past this please?

I'm opposed to the illegal part of illegal immigration, it doesn't matter where the illegals are from.

It is a legal matter, not an ethnic one.

[Bigun]

I'm opposed to the illegal part of illegal immigration, it doesn't matter where the illegals are from.

It is a legal matter, not an ethnic one.

   and

[roamer_1]

Trump won the nomination the way that the nomination is supposed to be won.

Well, not exactly... Blatant lying about one's opponents is not fair play... To call it 'fair and square' would be wrong.

Blame the people who put him there, not the RNC.

Right, except for the inferred sense of the RNC being in charge of fair play... As referees in the game, they suck.

[roamer_1]

I don't understand so many people falling into the hate Bush... hate the Bushes camp. 

Well, for me the straw that broke my back was having the term 'nativist' spat at me... long before Trump did anything.

Bushes are not Conservatives. they come from the moderate wing... Conservatives come from Goldwater/Reagan. There is no natural affection between the two.