Author Topic: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland  (Read 2933 times)

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Offline Timber Rattler

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How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« on: July 17, 2016, 01:07:48 pm »
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/rnc-2016-donald-trump-delegates-225651

Minutes before midnight on Wednesday, two of Ted Cruz’s top conservative allies – Ken Cuccinelli and Mike Lee – huddled in Cleveland’s Lakeside Street Doubletree Hotel with the top brass of the Republican National Committee.
It was a meeting meant to be kept secret – a quiet but urgent negotiation to avert an ugly and divisive fight over the future of the GOP, one the Republican leadership worried could embarrass Donald Trump, and the party, in front of a nationally televised audience.

Cuccinelli and Lee were representing a restive conservative faction of Rules Committee members, maneuvering to weaken the party’s Washington-based establishment and introduce reforms to the 2020 presidential primary process that would favor conservatives.

On the other side, two of the RNC’s senior-most leaders, Chief Operating Officer Sean Cairncross and Chief of Staff Katie Walsh, came to the table with Donald Trump’s campaign lawyer William McGinley and two aides to the presumptive nominee, Mike McSherry and Jim Murphy. According to multiple sources inside Trump’s campaign and the RNC, these GOP leaders were authorized to make a deal -- and they were close.

But instead of a truce that might have helped heal the wounds from one of the ugliest primary seasons in modern presidential politics, the negotiations ultimately collapsed, widening the gap between both sides, and leaving Cuccinelli’s and Lee’s allies virtually empty-handed. Indeed, within 12 hours, leaders on both sides were left bitterly pointing fingers.

“If there was some notion on the part of the party or the Trump campaign that they wanted unity in this convention, it is an odd way to do it to show up and kick the grassroots in the teeth,” Cuccinelli said in a Friday night conference call with the pro-Cruz Trusted Leadership PAC.

RNC allies reject that accusation and argue that it's Cuccinelli who actually spurned the grassroots by attempting to cut a backroom deal that would, effectively, force dozens of states to alter their primary process. "These folks claim that they are proponents and voices for the grassroots," said a source familiar with the meeting. "He was going to start dictating to states."

The negotiations first began more than a week ago, when Cuccinelli met RNC Chairman Reince Priebus at party headquarters in Washington. The pair sat in the Wisconsin conference room with Cairncross and senior RNC officials Chris LaCivita and John Phillippe, and over the course of 90 minutes, the two sides identified areas of “common interest” in changing party rules. Cuccinelli recognized in that meeting that he didn't have the support to pass most of his proposals in the Rules COmmittee but noted that he might be able to garner enough support to force the full national convention to debate them.

His priorities included reversing a Mitt Romney-imposed rule that made it more difficult for candidates to be formally nominated at the national convention and encouraging states to close their primaries to Democrats and independents. The meeting, both sides suggested, had set the table for a final deal when negotiators met again in Cleveland.

“They hashed out quite a bit of stuff,” said a source briefed on the meeting.

What Cuccinelli may not have been prepared for was the level of intense coordination and lobbying the RNC and Trump campaign had already been doing, in concert, to stack the deck against Cuccinelli’s favored proposals.
On Wednesday, just before Cuccinelli would huddle with RNC leaders at the Doubletree, Priebus joined senior Trump campaign officials Rick Gates and Jim Murphy to deliver a pep talk to dozens of Trump supporters on the Convention Rules Committee at the nearby Westin hotel.

"We’re together. We’re a team,” one participant in the meeting said Priebus told them. “Please work with us tomorrow to unify the party. We all need to stick together and vote as a bloc.”
The campaign and RNC left nothing to chance. As they exited the meeting, campaign officials encouraged all the delegates present to put their cell phone numbers on a list to receive text messages throughout the Rules Committee meeting instructing them how to vote on every single amendment and motion.

Indeed, Cuccinelli and his band of insurgents so spooked the Trump campaign and the RNC that it forced the two to coordinate more closely than ever before, fostering a tighter partnership between the candidate and the party leadership he and his team once deeply distrusted.

“It was the first time where the Trump operation and the RNC operation en masse melded as one,” said another source in the room, who called it a “watershed” moment of cooperation.
That preparation ensured that the RNC would enter negotiations with a dominant upper hand. Cuccinelli would struggle to get even limited support for his favored proposals without cutting a deal with the party.

The meeting in the Doubletree’s lobby began an hour late – around midnight – because a storm delayed Lee’s arrival in Cleveland. It stretched into Thursday morning, with Cairncross and Walsh leaving at 2:30 a.m., both sides thinking a deal was nearly at hand. In exchange for dropping some of his most divisive proposals – a ban on lobbyists serving on the RNC and a plan to weaken the power of the national GOP chairman – Cuccinelli would get concessions on a package of reforms to the 2020 presidential primary process, as well as on a change to the terms of RNC members. Final details would be ironed out later that morning, when the Rules Committee convened at the nearby Huntington Convention Center.

The committee sesssion opened at 8 a.m. and immediately recessed to deal with a “jammed printer,” according to committee chairwoman Enid Mickelsen. Meanwhile, Cuccinelli and the RNC’s Cairncross and Walsh were negotiating in a room down the hall. Trump envoys were there too, but this time, they stayed out of the negotiations. Priebus wasn’t on hand, according to an RNC member who said he was with the chairman in a separate strategy meeting about the Rules Committee.

What happened next is the source of the ongoing acrimony.

After five hours of closed-door negotiations, Cuccinelli’s supporters on the Rules Committee balked at the deal he had brokered, sending him back to the bargaining table. He returned with a new proposal on closed primaries and also a proposal to establish a study commission on changing the primary process – but one that the RNC wouldn’t get to appoint. It was too great an ask.

“Pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered,” one participant in the meetings said.

Suddenly, the RNC began to doubt whether Cuccinelli was authorized to speak on behalf of the delegates he purported to represent. Though the two sides continued to barter, the RNC pulled out of the talks when, according to three sources involved in the final negotiations, Cuccinelli conceded that he couldn’t guarantee the support of his faction – even for a more favorable version of the agreement.

"It became clear ... that he was shaky," said a source involved in the talks. When the RNC asked him to identify the delegates he could bring on board, Cuccinelli acknowledged, "I’ve lost a couple of them." After a huddle between senior RNC officials and Priebus, negotiators returned, Walsh returned to the room and ended negotiations.

"We made the call, no deal," the source said, adding that a deal was possible with Cuccinelli "if he was leader" of the group he purported to represent. RNC officials noted that by walking away from the table, it actually forced debate into the open -- the Rules Committee considered Cuccinelli's proposals and rejected them.

Cuccinelli, though, characterizes the breakdown as an abrupt decision by the RNC to quit on the talks. The two sides had hammered out agreements on nearly every subject, Cuccinelli supporters say: Republicans on the RNC would no longer see their terms end in the middle of presidential election years; a Mitt Romney-imposed rule stiffening the threshold for candidates to be nominated at the national convention would be reversed; and most importantly, states would be encouraged to close their primaries to Democratic and independent voters.

But Cuccinelli said the deal fell apart over the way to reward states with closed primaries. He sought a proposal to provide closed-primary states with a 25 percent bonus in their delegate pool at the national convention. The RNC countered by proposing a 15 percent bonus to states’ at-large delegate pools.

“That was ... when the RNC pulled out,” Cuccinelli said. “Katie Walsh … came over to me and said ‘Nope, we don’t want to talk anymore.’”

At 1 p.m. on Thursday, the Rules committee convened with no deal in place and the first amendement up for debate was on the lobbyist ban.

The RNC activated its cell phone list, gathered the day before, to text more than 80 members of the Rules Committee with instructions on how they should vote. Those text messages encouraged members to support any proposals backed by favored RNC members like New Hampshire’s Steve Duprey and Tennessee’s John Ryder while rejecting those offered by more rebellious members like Arizona’s Bruce Ash and Virginia’s Morton Blackwell. In addition, former Congressman Doug Ose, one of Trump’s supporters on the committee, repeatedly invoked procedural motions that permanently ended debate on the most divisive subjects, catching Trump’s opponents off-guard and ensuring that the committee proceedings moved apace.

The joint Trump-RNC teams knew they only had to monitor about two dozen opponents: about 20 who aligned with Blackwell, a veteran conservative known for his efforts to overhaul party rules, and a handful backing Colorado delegate Kendal Unruh, leader of an anti-Trump effort to unbind delegates from the results of primaries and caucuses.

But if the RNC and Trump teams were nervous about the start of voting, their unease lifted quickly. Committee members followed their lead and quickly killed the Cuccinelli proposal when fewer than two dozen committee members showed support for the measure.

The RNC and the Trump campaign finally learned, in an on-record vote, just how deep their support ran in the committee.

What ensued was a rout of all Cuccinelli-favored proposals. RNC forces and Trump allies crushed every proposal offered by forces aligned with Cuccinelli and Lee.
Their job was to keep the anti-Trump forces off-balance – and they did it repeatedly. After a five-hour delayed start, they decided – with little warning – to continue meeting late into the night Thursday, while most of Trump’s opponents were preparing to recess and continue debate on Friday.

“Why give them a whole day to regroup, refresh,” said one RNC official. “Once you press the attack, you don’t let off.”

It was an acrimonious end to a process that both sides said had began with an earnest effort to find common ground. Though Cuccinelli was always dramatically outnumbered on the Rules Committee by forces loyal to the RNC and Trump, the RNC agreed to talks to avoid the appearance that grassroots conservatives were getting steamrolled.

Now Cuccinelli is threatening to disrupt Monday’s convention proceedings by encouraging delegates to vote down the rules passed by the committee, when they come up for a final vote. That would throw the convention into chaos on the day delegates are expected to formally nominate Trump. He’s also promising to pursue “minority reports” for the proposals that his allies failed to advance – vehicles that could be used to force the full convention to vote on them anyway.

“It did look like for a while there was a sincere effort to turn the rules process into something that could’ve been a unifying opportunity,” Cuccinelli said, “instead of the kind of shattering disunity that we saw … in 2012.”
aka "nasty degenerate SOB," "worst of the worst at Free Republic," "Garbage Troll," "Neocon Warmonger," "Filthy Piece of Trash," "damn $#%$#@!," "Silly f'er," "POS," "war pig," "neocon scumbag," "insignificant little ankle nipper," "@ss-clown," "neocuck," "termite," "Uniparty Deep stater," "Never Trump sack of dog feces," "avid Bidenista," "filthy Ukrainian," "war whore," "fricking chump," psychopathic POS, and depraved SOB.

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."  ---George Orwell

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Offline Timber Rattler

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2016, 01:13:36 pm »
Helluva way to "unify" the party, GOP-E.
aka "nasty degenerate SOB," "worst of the worst at Free Republic," "Garbage Troll," "Neocon Warmonger," "Filthy Piece of Trash," "damn $#%$#@!," "Silly f'er," "POS," "war pig," "neocon scumbag," "insignificant little ankle nipper," "@ss-clown," "neocuck," "termite," "Uniparty Deep stater," "Never Trump sack of dog feces," "avid Bidenista," "filthy Ukrainian," "war whore," "fricking chump," psychopathic POS, and depraved SOB.

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."  ---George Orwell

"If you want peace, prepare for war." ---Flavius Vegetius Renatus

Offline biff

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2016, 01:20:48 pm »
Just one more reason to leave these scoundrels and vote/join another party. They have learned well from their Democrat mentors.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2016, 01:31:42 pm »
Republicans can do what they want.  #NeverTrump means Never Trump.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2016, 01:31:57 pm »
Al Cardenas ‏@AlCardenasFL_DC  7h7 hours ago
There are more Hispanics playing in the finals of the British Open than there are speaking at the RNC Convention
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline musiclady

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2016, 01:40:43 pm »
Republicans can do what they want.  #NeverTrump means Never Trump.

Not supporting Trump means not supporting the dreaded "GOPe".......... they are one and the same.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Offline SunkenCiv

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2016, 01:46:38 pm »
Quote
How Trump's adversaries lost it all in Cleveland s/b How Trump's adversaries lost it all in the Debates and the Primaries
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Gods, Graves, Glyphs forum (we're new) Darwin Central (posting as Ned Ludlam) my FR posts, SunkenCiv?, FR topic by nuconvert

Online roamer_1

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2016, 02:04:41 pm »


Well, hello SunkenCiv! Nice to see you here.

 :seeya: :patriot: 

Offline Mechanicos

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2016, 02:10:01 pm »
Quote
After five hours of closed-door negotiations, Cuccinelli’s supporters on the Rules Committee balked at the deal he had brokered, sending him back to the bargaining table. He returned with a new proposal on closed primaries and also a proposal to establish a study commission on changing the primary process – but one that the RNC wouldn’t get to appoint. It was too great an ask.

“Pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered,” one participant in the meetings said.

Suddenly, the RNC began to doubt whether Cuccinelli was authorized to speak on behalf of the delegates he purported to represent. Though the two sides continued to barter, the RNC pulled out of the talks when, according to three sources involved in the final negotiations, Cuccinelli conceded that he couldn’t guarantee the support of his faction – even for a more favorable version of the agreement.

"It became clear ... that he was shaky," said a source involved in the talks. When the RNC asked him to identify the delegates he could bring on board, Cuccinelli acknowledged, "I’ve lost a couple of them." After a huddle between senior RNC officials and Priebus, negotiators returned, Walsh returned to the room and ended negotiations.

Anti-Trumps negotiated in bad faith and dishonestly here. This was not the GOP in the wrong here, when the anti-Trump representative admitted he had no authority to negotiate and kept coming back wanting more after deals were reached.

Now consider this fact. We could have had closed primaries no lobbyists as delegates and most of the other core issues all of us agree on BUT FOR the anti-Trump faction blowing it here.
Trump is for America First.
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Offline skeeter

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2016, 02:18:22 pm »
Anyone who thought voting for Trump meant voting for the outsider sure does look silly today.

The GOPe wants Trump. Always have.

Offline Bigun

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2016, 02:19:11 pm »
When they actually hand the party over to Trump I'm done with them for good! Period! End of story!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline musiclady

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2016, 02:21:28 pm »
Anyone who thought voting for Trump meant voting for the outsider sure does look silly today.

The GOPe wants Trump. Always have.

Yep.   They're power hungry anti-conservatives.

The idea that Trump was on the outside was always the silly fantasy of a few.

They should have listened to Carly Fiorina when she said....... "Trump IS the system."

Prove in spades now.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2016, 02:23:14 pm »
When they actually hand the party over to Trump I'm done with them for good! Period! End of story!

After a life time of involvement, that's a huge decision.

I haven't been nearly as involved as you, Bigun, but going with Trump has ended my affiliation with the Republican party.

I don't think they have any idea how many devoted Conservatives they have thrown away by supporting this charlatan.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline skeeter

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2016, 02:26:03 pm »
Yep.   They're power hungry anti-conservatives.

The idea that Trump was on the outside was always the silly fantasy of a few.

They should have listened to Carly Fiorina when she said....... "Trump IS the system."

Prove in spades now.

And the system would be equally happy with Hillary.

One last blown opportunity. Makes me sick to my stomach.

Offline musiclady

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2016, 02:28:38 pm »
And the system would be equally happy with Hillary.

One last blown opportunity. Makes me sick to my stomach.

Me too.

Only as I see it, it may have been the only opportunity we had left.

And Trump and his minions, in concert with the GOPe, destroyed it for us.

I weep for America.  The ideals we once stood for are now history.....
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Bigun

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2016, 02:30:04 pm »
And the system would be equally happy with Hillary.

One last blown opportunity. Makes me sick to my stomach.

Me to!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2016, 03:09:50 pm »
The GOPe wants Trump. Always have.

@skeeter   It's about wanting the 14 million votes.  Had someone else won those votes, the GOP would be behind him. 

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2016, 03:55:02 pm »
@skeeter   It's about wanting the 14 million votes.  Had someone else won those votes, the GOP would be behind him.

Trump got 10 million primary votes, not 14.

The total number of people who didn't vote for Trump was 14.9 million.

And you know this.

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2016, 04:01:35 pm »
Trump got 10 million primary votes, not 14.

The total number of people who didn't vote for Trump was 14.9 million.

And you know this.

Got a link.  You know I'd ask. 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 04:02:11 pm by Right_in_Virginia »

HonestJohn

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2016, 04:41:27 pm »
Got a link.  You know I'd ask.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,215998.msg966902.html#msg966902

And you commented on the thread, so you saw this.  And *STILL* posted the that Trump got 14 million.

(though, I did underrepresent the non-Trump vote by 500,000)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 04:42:42 pm by HonestJohn »

Offline Mechanicos

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2016, 05:16:48 pm »
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,215998.msg966902.html#msg966902

And you commented on the thread, so you saw this.  And *STILL* posted the that Trump got 14 million.

(though, I did underrepresent the non-Trump vote by 500,000)
The flaw in your position is you cite to a midway vote total not a final vote total.
the final vote totals were:
Trump: 14,009,098 (44.96%) (who was also 2nd choice and thus not voted against of the vast majority of GOP voters who did not vote for him).
Cruz: 7,810,477  (25.07%)
Kaisch: 4,287,325 (13.76%)
Rubio: 3,513,879 (11.28%)
Carson: 857,023 (2.75%)
Bush: 286,634 (0.92%)
Gilmore: 18,364 (0.06%)
Christie: 57,636 (0.18%)
Fiorina: 40,578 (0.13%)
Paul: 66,790 (0.21%)
Huckabee: 51,441 (0.17%)
Santorum: 16,625 (0.05%)
[9 more]

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P16/R

The "majority voted against Trump" talking point is a stupid and dishonest argument based on a logical fallacy that incorrectly presumes a vote for one is a vote against all others. Its Stupid because it flips back on the ones parroting it to say the closest opponent of Trump had  74.93% voting against him and it went up from there for all other opponents.

That Trump won 44.96% of a 17-way race is outstanding in any election if you are honest with yourself.



Trump is for America First.
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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2016, 05:20:47 pm »

It definitely shows why First-Past-the-Post voting needs to be replaced.  But if this primary season didn't cause an outcry for it, I have no hope of the American people ever waking up!
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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2016, 06:25:31 pm »
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/rnc-2016-donald-trump-delegates-225651

>snip<

Cuccinelli and Lee were representing a restive conservative faction of Rules Committee members, maneuvering to weaken the party’s Washington-based establishment and introduce reforms to the 2020 presidential primary process that would favor conservatives.

On the other side, two of the RNC’s senior-most leaders, Chief Operating Officer Sean Cairncross and Chief of Staff Katie Walsh, came to the table with Donald Trump’s campaign lawyer William McGinley and two aides to the presumptive nominee, Mike McSherry and Jim Murphy. According to multiple sources inside Trump’s campaign and the RNC, these GOP leaders were authorized to make a deal -- and they were close.

>snip<
His priorities included reversing a Mitt Romney-imposed rule that made it more difficult for candidates to be formally nominated at the national convention and encouraging states to close their primaries to Democrats and independents. The meeting, both sides suggested, had set the table for a final deal when negotiators met again in Cleveland.

“They hashed out quite a bit of stuff,” said a source briefed on the meeting.

What Cuccinelli may not have been prepared for was the level of intense coordination and lobbying the RNC and Trump campaign had already been doing, in concert, to stack the deck against Cuccinelli’s favored proposals.
On Wednesday, just before Cuccinelli would huddle with RNC leaders at the Doubletree, Priebus joined senior Trump campaign officials Rick Gates and Jim Murphy to deliver a pep talk to dozens of Trump supporters on the Convention Rules Committee at the nearby Westin hotel.

"We’re together. We’re a team,” one participant in the meeting said Priebus told them. “Please work with us tomorrow to unify the party. We all need to stick together and vote as a bloc.”
The campaign and RNC left nothing to chance. As they exited the meeting, campaign officials encouraged all the delegates present to put their cell phone numbers on a list to receive text messages throughout the Rules Committee meeting instructing them how to vote on every single amendment and motion.

Indeed, Cuccinelli and his band of insurgents so spooked the Trump campaign and the RNC that it forced the two to coordinate more closely than ever before, fostering a tighter partnership between the candidate and the party leadership he and his team once deeply distrusted.

“It was the first time where the Trump operation and the RNC operation en masse melded as one,” said another source in the room, who called it a “watershed” moment of cooperation.

A water shed moment, indeed. IMHO, this tells us who the real outsiders have been all along. And who they ain't.

The GOPee (If you want to even believe them) turned to Trump people rather than Conservatives.

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C S Lewis

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2016, 07:09:40 pm »


Hopefully we will see you around more often

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: How Trump’s adversaries lost it all in Cleveland
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2016, 07:28:40 pm »

I don't think they have any idea how many devoted Conservatives they have thrown away by supporting this charlatan.
Like JR, I don't think they care at this point.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis