Author Topic: We Must End Needless Interactions With Police Officers During Traffic Stops: A broken taillight does not require armed agents of the state to approach a motorist’s window.  (Read 2317 times)

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Offline SirLinksALot

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SOURCE: THE ATLANTIC

URL: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/07/end-needless-interaction-with-cops-during-traffic-stops/490412/

by: Conor Friedersdorf




On Wednesday, a Minnesota police officer shot and killed a school cafeteria manager during a traffic stop for a broken taillight. As Philando Castile, 32, bled in his vehicle, his girlfriend, Diamond Reynolds, broadcast the aftermath on Facebook Live. She said that her boyfriend was reaching for his I.D. at the police officer’s instruction when he was shot, having already declared that he was legally carrying a firearm. The policeman said, “I told him not to reach for it! I told him to get his hands up.”

A young child was also in the vehicle during the shooting.

Because the shooting itself was not captured on video, the whole truth may not out. The public may never know if a panicked Philando Castile moved in a way that would alarm a reasonable police officer, or if the police officer was negligent, or incompetent, or malignant, or if both of them erred in small ways that added up to tragedy.

But regardless of who was at fault, the whole incident—the death of the 32-year-old, the trauma to his girlfriend, the danger posed to the child, and any danger or undeserved suffering by the cop—could’ve been avoided but for a needless interaction. There is no need for a cop to approach a motorist’s window over a broken taillight.

I am not saying that all broken taillights should be ignored.

What I’m suggesting is a change in protocol: A police officer who sees a car with a broken taillight, or a malfunctioning blinker, should pull it over, park behind it, photograph the license plate, and issue a “fix it” ticket to the registered owner of the vehicle without ever approaching a window or interacting with anyone on the roadside.

Some traffic stops are unavoidable. Police officers need to interact with drunk-driving suspects to determine their blood alcohol level. They need to interact with a person driving a car reported stolen to recover the property and arrest the thief. But broken taillights and similar matters can be addressed without any human contact. And minimizing interactions between police and motorists is a good thing.

On the roadside, approaching people sitting in their own car, many cops fear for their safety. In their vehicles, many motorists, particularly black and Hispanic motorists, fear that they’re going to be met with a racist or panicked police officer. These interactions are hugely stressful for both sides even when they end without incident. And rarely, but far too often, these roadside stops end in needless injury or death.

To what end?

CLICK ABOVE LINK FOR THE REST OF THE ARTICLE...

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Privatise the roads and highways and let the private company handle licensing, permitting, taxing and enforcing of drivers and vehicles.

Offline sinkspur

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As long as cities rely on ticket revenue, these stupid traffic stops will continue.   I got stopped once for rolling through a stop sign.  I got a ticket because I laughed that the cop would stop me for something so silly.

It got dismissed when the cop failed to show up for a traffic court hearing.  Time and money wasted on bullshit.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline SirLinksALot

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As long as cities rely on ticket revenue, these stupid traffic stops will continue.   I got stopped once for rolling through a stop sign.  I got a ticket because I laughed that the cop would stop me for something so silly.

It got dismissed when the cop failed to show up for a traffic court hearing.  Time and money wasted on bullshit.

How about Red Light Cameras? Do they deter people from running through red lights? Are they proven to prevent accidents?

Offline sinkspur

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How about Red Light Cameras? Do they deter people from running through red lights? Are they proven to prevent accidents?

I have no idea.  We had them installed, but a group of residents made them a City Council election issue and they were all removed. LOL!!
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

geronl

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How about Red Light Cameras? Do they deter people from running through red lights? Are they proven to prevent accidents?

red light cameras were put in for revenue, mailed tickets and no court date to argue innocence but the contractor got the keep most of the $$ and people fought back for their right to face their accuser, who doesn't exist. Plus the cameras might have caused more accidents...

I think a bunch of cities got rid of those things already

Offline Chieftain

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Our Police Chief appeared before City Council in February to give them an update on the status of the local police force.  In 2005, he had 14 traffic patrol officers, and combined, they issued over 47,000 traffic citations that year.  In 2015, due to staffing cuts, he had 2 traffic patrol officers, and combined they wrote a total of 1200 tickets for the year. 

The lawlessness on our streets right now show the result.  "Rolling through a stop sign" might seem silly to immature and/or irresponsible drivers until they get T-boned in the intersection by the driver who has the green light.  I hate driving in town these days because nobody pays any attention to even the most basic of traffic laws, which help guarantee everyone can use the streets safely, without some dickhead on the loose who thinks all the laws are "bullshit"...

 :smokin:

Offline sinkspur

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Our Police Chief appeared before City Council in February to give them an update on the status of the local police force.  In 2005, he had 14 traffic patrol officers, and combined, they issued over 47,000 traffic citations that year.  In 2015, due to staffing cuts, he had 2 traffic patrol officers, and combined they wrote a total of 1200 tickets for the year. 

The lawlessness on our streets right now show the result.  "Rolling through a stop sign" might seem silly to immature and/or irresponsible drivers until they get T-boned in the intersection by the driver who has the green light.  I hate driving in town these days because nobody pays any attention to even the most basic of traffic laws, which help guarantee everyone can use the streets safely, without some dickhead on the loose who thinks all the laws are "bullshit"...

 :smokin:

Well, I guess you're talking about me.  When I "rolled" through that stop sign, it was 6 am and there was not another car on the road, except the cop's. 

We'll just disagree about nonsense traffic stops.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline ABX

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The usual reasoning I've heard from LEOs for pulling people over for minor infractions (broken or not bright enough tail light, crossing a line too far, rolling stop on empty road, etc) is an excuse to check for other infractions like drunk driving. I've been told more than once that they can find something wrong with every single driver, especially if they turn and pull behind you because people get tense and 'swerve' a bit too much. If they suspect more (wrong person, wrong car, high drunk driving time, high crime road, etc) they can find any excuse to pull you over.

Offline DB

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I have no idea.  We had them installed, but a group of residents made them a City Council election issue and they were all removed. LOL!!

Traffic light cameras tend to cause more accidents. When the light changes to yellow people tend to slam on their brakes to avoid a possible ticket and they get rear-ended... So statistically, I believe they do the opposite of what's claimed...

Offline jedidah

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In the case of the Minnesota shooting, there was no broken tail light  (and the car was pulled over in daylight, so it wouldn't have been apparent even if it were broken).

There's much, much more to that story.  Read here:


https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/07/08/the-curious-case-of-philando-castile-falcon-heights-mn-police-shooting/


Offline EC

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I've been told more than once that they can find something wrong with every single driver, especially if they turn and pull behind you because people get tense and 'swerve' a bit too much. If they suspect more (wrong person, wrong car, high drunk driving time, high crime road, etc) they can find any excuse to pull you over.

I got pulled over once at about 4 AM for "driving too well" according to the officer.  :shrug:
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Offline Henry Noel

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Well, I guess you're talking about me.  When I "rolled" through that stop sign, it was 6 am and there was not another car on the road, except the cop's. 

We'll just disagree about nonsense traffic stops.

That's a topic for another discussion. The import of this one is that young black thugs will be safer and live happier lives if they never have to interact with the police. That's a premise I don't quite agree with.
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Many of those stopped for broken taillights have outstanding warrants. This is a prime way proactive policing removes criminals from our streets.

Society seems to be pushing for less policing and more crime.  We're in for interesting timrs. I wonder if people realize what they're asking for!
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Offline Smokin Joe

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The usual reasoning I've heard from LEOs for pulling people over for minor infractions (broken or not bright enough tail light, crossing a line too far, rolling stop on empty road, etc) is an excuse to check for other infractions like drunk driving. I've been told more than once that they can find something wrong with every single driver, especially if they turn and pull behind you because people get tense and 'swerve' a bit too much. If they suspect more (wrong person, wrong car, high drunk driving time, high crime road, etc) they can find any excuse to pull you over.
Some of that is Location, Location, Location, but time of day is a biggie. And yes, if they follow you long enough, well, you'll have a hard time driving their entire shift without giving them some reason to pull you over.  However those with outstanding warrants get nervous, bail jumpers, probation violators, people carrying drugs or other things they aren't supposed to have, and even those who may not have acquired the vehicle they are operating legally, will get nervous sooner. Nervous people make mistakes.

As for lights, I was told by one patrol officer that (for example) one in four people driving in town (well lit, streetlights) without their headlights on at night are operating DUI.  Hmm. I'd say that might be a screening criterion. Add in a vehicle with body damage, broken taillight lenses, and showing the general malaise that heavy drinkers seem to inflict on their vehicles, and I'd give that a nod as a checklist item, too. Of course, area, time, and skill of the operator factor in. Druggies can go either way, with some vehicles a rolling recycling commercial, others fine and shined. A vehicle that looks 'too good' for an area might be just as much a tipoff as one that looks shabby.

Now, those are criteria for increasing the odds that someone is DUI. They might just be poor, bought a beater, or inherited the car from their drunk uncle and are working their way along the 12 steps to getting out of poverty. Good for them. But just as we might be more likely to suspect some guy in a burnoose named Ahmed at the airport of being the next guy to try to take the plane, these are profiling criteria. You don't want to be profiled, learn and avoid the 'look'. In the meantime, drive well, and some one else will likely get their attention.

There are plenty of people out there who drive like idiots, and one is almost sure to come along. Make sure your stuff works like it is supposed to--all lights, signals, etc., and that the tail light lenses aren't broken. If you live someplace that seems to happen often, get some of that red taillight tape they have at Walmart in the auto section and put it in the glove box, so you can patch over the hole until the lens can be repaired/replaced.

Now, I am not a LEO, past or present (I'm former Fire/Rescue, long ago and far away), nor am I in an adversarial relationship with the local/County/State constabulary; I know every policeman by his/her first name ("Officer", or other rank or designation if they correct me). I don't make it a practice of getting pulled over, either, because I check all the lights periodically, do vehicle walk-arounds and look for damage I am not aware of otherwise, and in general, make sure there is NO reason to pull me over.

Not drinking helps, too.

If it happens that I am pulled over, though, it's hands in plain sight, no sudden moves, make sure what I am doing is in line of sight for the officer, do what they say, calmly and gently, and we'll all go home. Make sure you know where your license, registration, and proof of insurance are. Be polite, even congenial. (A soft word turneth away wrath). Inform them calmly of any surgical wound, illness, injury, or disability you have if it will interfere with complying with their requests.

Are some officers heavy handed? Intimidating? Yes, to some degree, but from the other side of the badge, I can see where that stops a lot of crap before it happens. ME staying calm helps them stay calm, and that makes it easier to sort stuff out.

If you want a problem, if you don't already have a bad day and insist on having one, get pissed off. By all means, don't hold back, call the policeman names, and make sure you remind them about how you pay their salaries, they really like that. If you have the connections--or even if you don't, threaten them with the loss of their job because you know powerful people in high places. Tell them how that will hurt because they are not smart enough to fill out the application for the next job. Liberal distribution of spittle, thrashing around, and shouting creative and profane comments about their ancestry, dining habits, sexual practices, relationship with the family pet(s), K-9, and/or stray or barnyard animals, comments on intelligence, or comparisons with anatomical parts of any organism will only enhance your experience.

These guys have a tough job to do. We complain if they don't seem to get it done well enough, often enough, and then bitch if we happen to be the one pulled over.

It doesn't do anyone any good to contribute to the Us v Them mentality brewing out there and getting worse with events like those in Dallas. It will be ugly enough without that.
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Offline verga

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Years ago I worked for a company that supervised hazardous material abatements. I was working at a residential facility for the mentally handicapped. The campus had a posted speed limit of 15 MPH. The security there was provided by something that was called "Reserve police" They were legally authorized to distribute traffic citations etc.... I made it a practice to drive under the posted speed limit since the residents were sometimes unpredictable. One day I get pulled over on the campus and was told I was "Doing 17 in a 15." In NYS you have the right to see the radar readout. The "officer" refused. I requested to see the calibration log for the radar gun he was using. He refused to do that. Once I requested to speak to his supervisor he sent me on my way without a citation. I later spoke to the director of the facility about the incident. We both had a good laugh over how over zealous some of the security were.
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Offline goatprairie

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Privatise the roads and highways and let the private company handle licensing, permitting, taxing and enforcing of drivers and vehicles.
So you want private citizens to have to drive on private roads and pay tolls to a private company? Just one company owns all the roads, or would there be many owners with their own roads across the country?

Offline Timber Rattler

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As long as cities rely on ticket revenue, these stupid traffic stops will continue.   I got stopped once for rolling through a stop sign.  I got a ticket because I laughed that the cop would stop me for something so silly.

It got dismissed when the cop failed to show up for a traffic court hearing.  Time and money wasted on bullshit.

Yeah, I've two nonsensical stops on the highway by county deputies myself.  The first was by an older sergeant who just pulled me over and gave me a ticket for doing 63 in a 55, even though he did not have his radar out.  I asked him how he arrived at that number, and he just shrugged and said that he estimated it.  I went to court and beat that corrupt $90 ticket with my $100 traffic lawyer.

The second time, I was pulled over by an obvious rookie, fresh out of the academy and obviously prior military, based on how he looked and presented himself.  In that case, he pulled out in front of me on a 4-lane highway after completing another traffic stop, and then proceeded to play the old game of speed-up/slow down, in an attempt to get me to tailgate him.  Finally, as he slowed down, I gave my signal, pulled into the left lane, and gently glided past him as his speed decreased.  After I cleared his vehicle, he zoomed in behind me and hit his lights.  During the ensuing traffic stop, he gave me a ticket for an "unsafe lane change," which was horse hockey and clearly engineered by the officer.    I beat that ticket in court too, but it again cost more money than if I had just paid the ticket.

In both instances, the deputies approached me guardedly with their hands on the weapons, ready to draw down if I made any sudden moves, even though I was in dress clothes on my way to work.  Everybody I know has similar stories about their own encounters with the cops.  And stuff like this is what has eroded the public's trust in Law Enforcement in general.  I know that after my own personal experiences, I don't have any respect for them at all.
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Offline goatprairie

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Oh bullshit!  I get so sick of hearing that traffic cops are there to protect the public!  When the cops pull somebody over to issue a citation, there are more wrecks caused by rubberneckers hoping for a wreck.  This was told to me by a police officer.  He also said this is how the cities make up for revenue that they want to build their crystal palaces.

Leave drivers alone.  Let us drive as fast as we want.  Dallas has gone awhile whithout giving traffic tickets and we are driving 85 through the city.  Accidents went way down.  During the fourth, the cops were out giving tickets.  Guess what?  Accidents skyrocketed.

How about getting lost as it was when I was a child where people drove through Texas driving 110 pulling a trailor without incident. I yearn for the good old days where traffic cops were non-existant in this state.

 :smokin:
So you don't care if somebody drives 60 mph down a residential street with children? Sorry to disagree, many speed limit signs are put in only after somebody has died from an accident from a speeder. I live in a semi-rural area where some of the speed limits are a little too low for my likng, but several were put in after some fatalities from speeders.

Offline txradioguy

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Many of those stopped for broken taillights have outstanding warrants. This is a prime way proactive policing removes criminals from our streets.

Society seems to be pushing for less policing and more crime.  We're in for interesting timrs. I wonder if people realize what they're asking for!

Sometimes it seems people want to have it both ways. They want the Cops out of their lives and out of their neighborhoods but at the same time want the crime levels to go down.

Can't have it both ways.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 12:19:12 pm by txradioguy »
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Offline goatprairie

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That's a topic for another discussion. The import of this one is that young black thugs will be safer and live happier lives if they never have to interact with the police. That's a premise I don't quite agree with.
Yes, tests have shown that blacks are far more likely than other ethnicities to disobey traffic laws.  The idea that they shouldn't be pulled over because they might get themselves shot is ludicrous.
If they keep their cars up to snuff, don't disobey basic traffic laws, and don't argue with and resist arrest when stopped by the police, they won't get themselves killed.
And although the St. Paul situation might be the case of a rogue cop, we still don't have all the facts. I certainly don't trust the guy's dope-addled girl friend for the truth about what happened.

Offline livius

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A broken tail light, especially in the daytime, is just an excuse. They had obviously run the plates before stopping him (the see if he had any warrants). He had 72 -yes, that's right, 72 - prior traffic arrests and other warrants for failure to appear. Nothing major, but certainly enough to stop him if they had a warrant for him.

As for what happened then, i think the cop overreacted. However, it's not clear that castile had a permit, and the photo shows him with his gun in his lap and not in his pocket. His girlfriend (who is not his wife) features a picture of herself toking in front of her kids (not by him) and the information that she stays stoned all day.  So things may not be quite the way they seem.

Offline verga

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A broken tail light, especially in the daytime, is just an excuse. They had obviously run the plates before stopping him (the see if he had any warrants). He had 72 -yes, that's right, 72 - prior traffic arrests and other warrants for failure to appear. Nothing major, but certainly enough to stop him if they had a warrant for him.

As for what happened then, i think the cop overreacted. However, it's not clear that castile had a permit, and the photo shows him with his gun in his lap and not in his pocket. His girlfriend (who is not his wife) features a picture of herself toking in front of her kids (not by him) and the information that she stays stoned all day.  So things may not be quite the way they seem.
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Where i live, if you are out driving on the road at 2:00 am., the officers will find a reason to pull you over.  I was on my way home from the 24 hour gym when I was pulled over and told that my driving was something or other.  I don't remember exactly what the lame excuse was.  When I told him I was on my way home from the gym he literally looked embarrassed.  A close look at my sweaty self easily proved my point.  It wasn't a big deal.  But I think it is wrong for officers to go fishing like that.

The better half had a similar experience.  She was pulling some 12 hour shifts  and left for work on a Sat at 4:40 am.  One of my Trans Ams was blocking her car so she decided to take the muscle car.  I don't think she made it 5 miles before she was pulled over.  When the LEO came to the window and saw a middle age women in a business suit... his mouth dropped open and he starts mumbling something about the reason for pulling her over was for not signalling a lane change (on a deserted road no less). Told her he wasn't going to write he a ticket this time! 

LOL

Offline SirLinksALot

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LOL.  Yep.   

Maybe she and I got pulled over because we are women.  BIAS!!!!!   /s
Speaking of women, what's wrong with using the Hillary Clinton defense?

As in:

"Your honor, I didn't see the STOP sign, I did not INTEND to violate the law..."

Hey, it worked for Hillary, it should work for us humble peasants /sarc (Remember --- EQUALITY BEFORE THE LAW /double sarc )