Author Topic: A Response to my Conservative #NeverTrump Friends...By Dennis Prager  (Read 1711 times)

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http://www.nationalreview.com/node/435758/print

 A Response to my Conservative #NeverTrump Friends
Nine reasons why beating Hillary Clinton trumps ideological purity.
By Dennis Prager — May 24, 2016

When you differ from people you admire you have to question yourself. After all, what is the purpose of admiring people if they aren’t capable of influencing you?

So, I have had to challenge my belief — stated from the outset of the Republican presidential debates — that if Donald Trump wins the Republican nomination, I will vote for him over Hillary Clinton or, for that matter, any Democrat.

I devoted many hours of radio and many columns to criticizing Donald Trump. His virtually assured nomination has therefore caused me grief as an American, a Republican, and a conservative. That his character defects, gaps in knowledge on some important issues, and having no set of identifiably conservative principles came to mean little to so many Republican voters has been quite troubling. (Though I might add that the fact that virtually all Democrats ignore the even worse character of Hillary Clinton and the idiotic ideas — and the rejection of everything that has made America unique — of Bernie Sanders is even more troubling.)

#NeverTrump conservatives such as (in alphabetical order) Jonah Goldberg, Bill Kristol, Ben Shapiro, Bret Stephens, and George Will, are not merely people I admire. They are friends and colleagues. Jonah Goldberg, Bret Stephens, and George Will have made multiple videos for Prager University — videos with many millions of views. Ben Shapiro and I have spent Shabbat together. I have had the privilege of writing for Bill Kristol’s Weekly Standard and having him on my show many times. And I have enthusiastically promoted their books. These people are special to me not only as thinkers but personally.

continued
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Offline Jazzhead

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There were plenty of compelling reasons to support Mussolini, too.   After all, he made the trains run on time.   That he led his nation down the road to destruction can be seen as 20/20 hindsight -  but in our case, the danger has been pinpointed and spotted ahead of time.   

That Trump exhibits the classic characteristics of a fascist strongman is only part of the danger he represents.   Chilling to me is the threat that he poses to the national fabric,  and our tradition of social pluralism under our shared values of individual liberty and equality (equality not of result but of the law's equal protection of our rights and our social dignity).   I fear a Trump presidency will bring riots and social chaos.   He revels in his ability to pit American against American,  and champions a poisonous rhetoric that threatens to divide us from our neighbors.   

I know all about the SCOTUS, and fracking,  and the other various "conservative" things that a Trump presidency will supposedly champion that a Clinton presidency will not.   It's not worth it.   I won't oppose evil by supporting an evil that history tells us will be far worse.   I will not sell my soul and convince myself I'm a good German.   Trump cannot make America great again, he can only tear her apart.       
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Offline Fishrrman

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A Response to My Conservative #NeverTrump Friends (Dennis Prager)
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2016, 03:46:55 pm »
http://www.truthrevolt.org/commentary/prager-response-my-conservative-nevertrump-friends

A Response to My Conservative #NeverTrump Friends
Dennis Prager
May 24, 2016

When you differ from people you admire, you have to question yourself. After all, what is the purpose of admiring people if they aren't capable of influencing you?

So, I have had to challenge my position -- stated since the outset of the Republican presidential debates -- that if Donald Trump wins the Republican nomination, I will vote for him over Hillary Clinton, or any Democrat for that matter.

I devoted many hours of radio and many columns to criticizing Trump. His virtually assured nomination has therefore caused me grief as an American, a Republican and a conservative. That his character defects, gaps in knowledge on some important issues, and lack of identifiably conservative principles came to mean little to so many Republican voters is quite troubling. (Though, I might add, it is even more troubling that virtually all Democrats ignore the even worse character of Hillary Clinton, as well as the idiotic socialist ideas of Sen. Bernie Sanders.)

#NeverTrump conservatives, such as (in alphabetical order) Jonah Goldberg, Bill Kristol, Ben Shapiro, Bret Stephens and George Will are not merely people I admire -- they are friends and colleagues. Goldberg, Stephens and Will have made multiple videos for Prager University, which receive millions of views. Shapiro and I have spent Shabbat together. I have had the privilege of writing for Kristol's The Weekly Standard and having him on my show many times. And I have enthusiastically promoted their books. These individuals are special to me not only as thinkers, but as people.

However, in the final analysis, I do not find their arguments compelling.
Take the "conscience" argument that one can sleep with a clear conscience by not voting for Trump. I don't find it compelling because it means that your conscience is clear after making it possible for Clinton or any other Democrat to win.

In fact, the "conscience" argument is so weak that Goldberg -- to his credit -- published a column two days ago titled "Sorry, I Still Won't Ever Vote for Trump." He wrote, "If the election were a perfect tie, and the vote fell to me and me alone, I'd probably vote for none other than Donald Trump."

Shouldn't all Americans vote as if their vote were the deciding vote? Including those whose votes "don't count" because they live in states that are so left-wing they would still vote Democrat if Vladimir Lenin headed the Democratic ticket?

The choice this November is tragic. As it often happens in life, this choice is between bad and worse, not bad and good.

But America has made that choice before. When forced to choose between bad and worse, we supported Joseph Stalin against Adolf Hitler, and we supported right-wing authoritarians against Communist totalitarians.

It seems to me that the #NeverTrump conservatives want to remain morally pure. I understand that temptation. I am tempted, too. But if you wish to vanquish the bad, it is not possible -- at least not on this side of the afterlife -- to remain pure.

The most moving interview of my 33 years in radio was with Irene Opdyke, a Polish Catholic woman. Opdyke became the mistress of a married Nazi officer in order to save the lives of 12 Jews. She hid them in the cellar of the officer's house in Warsaw. There were some Christians who called my show to say that Opdyke's actions were wrong, that she had in fact sinned because she knowingly committed a mortal sin. In their view, she compromised Catholic/Christian doctrine.

In my view -- and, I believe, the view of most Catholics and other Christians -- she brought glory to her God and her faith. Why? Because circumstances almost always determine what is moral, even for religious people like myself who believe in moral absolutes. That's why the act of dropping atom bombs on Japan was moral. The circumstances (ending a war that would otherwise continue taking millions of lives) made moral what under other circumstances would be immoral.

In the 2016 presidential race, I am not interested in moral purity. I am interested in defeating the left and its party, the Democratic Party. The notion (expressed by virtually every #NeverTrump advocate) that we can live with another four years of a Democratic president is, forgive me, mind-boggling. To that end, with at least one, and probably multiple, additional leftists on the Supreme Court, a Republican presidential victory in 2020 would mean little. All the left needs is the judicial branch, especially the Supreme Court. Left-wing judges pass so many left-wing laws that they render those who control Congress, and even the White House, almost irrelevant.

Here, then, are nine reasons (there are more) why a conservative should prefer a Trump presidency to a Democrat presidency:

--Prevent a left-wing Supreme Court.

--Increase the defense budget.

--Repeal, or at least modify, the Dodd-Frank act.

--Prevent Washington, D.C. from becoming a state and giving the Democrats another two permanent senators.

--Repeal Obamacare.

--Curtail illegal immigration, a goal that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with xenophobia or nativism (just look at Western Europe).

--Reduce job-killing regulations on large and small businesses.

--Lower the corporate income tax and bring back hundreds of billions of offshore dollars to the United States.

--Continue fracking, which the left, in its science-rejecting hysteria, opposes.

For these reasons, I, unlike my friends, could not live with my conscience if I voted to help the America-destroying left win the presidency in any way.

I just don't understand how anyone who understands the threat the left and the Democrats pose on America will refuse to vote for the only person who can stop them.

Offline goatprairie

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The problem with Trump vs. Hillary is not that Trump will probably (I hope) do the right thing more...it's that between the two, although Hillary can be counted on to do mostly bad things, Trump is likelier to do something completely crazy.
 And with Hillary we're talking about one of the worst prez candidates ever.
 But she can probably be somewhat contained by her hubby who will rib her and chortle at her dumber leftist actions. That, and a Republican congress, will probably temper Hillary's worst inclinations.
But there's nobody to temper Trump. He really thinks he knows it all.

Offline INVAR

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You are where I was 4 years ago Mr. Prager.

I'm done practicing insanity and voting for a liberal with an 'R' after their name out of fear of who the Democrats run.

We have already seen what giving Republicans control of both houses does - they empowered a dictatorship and surrendered their duty

I'm not about to vote for a man who has more in common with Italy's Fascist in tone, tenor and prose in the vain hopes he is better than Hildabeast's inner Stalin.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline sinkspur

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The problem with Trump vs. Hillary is not that Trump will probably (I hope) do the right thing more...it's that between the two, although Hillary can be counted on to do mostly bad things, Trump is likelier to do something completely crazy.
 And with Hillary we're talking about one of the worst prez candidates ever.
 But she can probably be somewhat contained by her hubby who will rib her and chortle at her dumber leftist actions. That, and a Republican congress, will probably temper Hillary's worst inclinations.
But there's nobody to temper Trump. He really thinks he knows it all.

America can survive a bad president.  America cannot survive a crazy president.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline sinkspur

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If a non-vote for Trump is a vote for Hillary, why wouldn't a non-vote for Hillary be a vote for Trump?
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline goatprairie

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Very good.  LOL.  To those who make the non-vote equation, you have smashed their so-called logic.

In voting, for is FOR.  To not vote for is to not be for the candidate.  We have said we would not vote for Trump but his scamming, bully campaign figured they would just bully us into submission.  I for one meant what I said.  it's their fault for ignoring the warning.
We have been presented with two fecal sandwiches. One plain and one with a little ketchup on it. The people in charge are now telling us we have to eat the one with a little ketchup on it because it's not quite as bad as the plain one.  I don't think so.

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If a non-vote for Trump is a vote for Hillary, why wouldn't a non-vote for Hillary be a vote for Trump?

And thus, a vote for a third party would be a vote for Trump and a vote for Clinton at the same time. 

Offline INVAR

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And thus, a vote for a third party would be a vote for Trump and a vote for Clinton at the same time.

I like it!  I'm going with that when presented with the argument.  I mean, the dead vote in Chicago and the imaginary have voted in Florida and Ohio to give Obama the "win" - so why not create a common-core math problem to explain it!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 07:07:32 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Relic

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If a non-vote for Trump is a vote for Hillary, why wouldn't a non-vote for Hillary be a vote for Trump?

So intellectually dishonest. It depends on the voter. If I don't vote, it's a non-vote for Trump. If my brother doesn't vote, it's a non-vote for Hillary.

But you knew that.

Offline Relic

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Dennis Prager is a gem, and is spot on with this one.

Now continue on with your conservative purity "measuring" you FR refugees!

Offline Jazzhead

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I'm all for pragmatism over "purity",  relic, but supporting a candidate who's hijacked my party and seems like the second coming of Mussolini is a bridge too far. 

 Forty years of loyalty to the GOP proves my bona fides, relic.   But why should I be loyal to the Party of Trump?     
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

Offline Relic

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I'm all for pragmatism over "purity",  relic, but supporting a candidate who's hijacked my party and seems like the second coming of Mussolini is a bridge too far. 

 Forty years of loyalty to the GOP proves my bona fides, relic.   But why should I be loyal to the Party of Trump?   

It's not loyalty. It's pragmatism. I'd rather give Trump a chance than give Hillary a chance. As I said, I think Trump will be hamstrung if he tries some wild things. Hillary is a member of the club, bought and paid for by Wall St., the Chinese, and the Saudis among others. Hillary will be afforded the power any member in good standing of the political class would get, and a little more due to her gender.

You vote as you see fit, I can't sell Trump because he is a nasty man. I think he's better than Hillary, but that's just my opinion.

I just think it's silly how many #nevertrumps post saying they know what Trump will do about this that or the other. I get it, they hate him, he's deserving of that. But, I look at it in terms of what I think will be best for America in the long run. Voting Trump is what I think is the best choice.

Just an anecdote apropos of nothing, I have a neighbor who is retired from the legal profession. A very honorable man, a retired military officer, as well as having been a lawyer. This guy, in the 10+ years I've known him has leaned left of center. A couple of weeks ago I came by, and he said: "I just googled Hillary Clinton, I forgot just how bad she is. She's evil, and I don't use that word lightly." He's going to vote Trump. He voted for Obama. He's in Ohio. Don't discount Trump in this one.

Offline INVAR

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It's not loyalty. It's pragmatism.

And that is how and why the country finds itself where it does.

When core foundations no longer matter because they have been redefined and are seen as a losing position, and expedience trumps principles - the Constitution no longer matters either because pragmatism and opportunism trumps the rule of law.

Here we are.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Relic

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And that is how and why the country finds itself where it does.

When core foundations no longer matter because they have been redefined and are seen as a losing position, and expedience trumps principles - the Constitution no longer matters either because pragmatism and opportunism trumps the rule of law.

Here we are.

You may complain about it, but the fact remains, we are here.

There are a lot of responses to a bad situation, some curl up in a ball, and some deal with it.

Offline INVAR

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You may complain about it, but the fact remains, we are here.

There are a lot of responses to a bad situation, some curl up in a ball, and some deal with it.

Not by doing the same exact damn thing that got us here in the first place.

That's not 'dealing with it'.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

geronl

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Trump is everything Prager has always said he was opposed to.

But he chucked his principles and joined in the Epstein Orgy for the orange-faced baboon.

Prager is dead to me.

geronl

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You may complain about it, but the fact remains, we are here.

There are a lot of responses to a bad situation, some curl up in a ball, and some deal with it.

Not voting for the PIMP is how I deal with it. I am quite comfortable with that decision.

Oceander

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You may complain about it, but the fact remains, we are here.

There are a lot of responses to a bad situation, some curl up in a ball, and some deal with it.

Voting for Trump is not dealing with it, it's curling up into a little ball and hoping an authoritarian nationalist with no governing experience will save you. 

Offline roamer_1

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We have been presented with two fecal sandwiches. One plain and one with a little ketchup on it. The people in charge are now telling us we have to eat the one with a little ketchup on it because it's not quite as bad as the plain one.  I don't think so.

Especially when there's a nice kosher deli right down the street!

The ONLY way to stop getting evil is to stop voting for it - even the lesser kind.

The kosher deli answer to solve Mr Prager's dilemma:
Trump is *NOT* the 'only one to stop Clinton'...
A conservative House and Senate can do the same, with the benefit that it really doesn't matter which liberal  ascends to the White House.



Offline Bigun

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There are many compelling reasons not to vote for Trump and the same is true for Hillary so I won't vote for either!


« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 11:14:45 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline skeeter

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The problem with Prager's thesis is there is absolutely no proof Trump would deliver on any of those items he listed.

In fact thanks to Trump patent dishonesty and inability to fully commit to ANY policy pronouncement during the campaign there is every reason to regard everything he says with extremely jaundiced eyes.

Offline Bigun

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The problem with Prager's thesis is there is absolutely no proof Trump would deliver on any of those items he listed.

In fact thanks to Trump patent dishonesty and inability to fully commit to ANY policy pronouncement during the campaign there is every reason to regard everything he says with extremely jaundiced eyes.

E X A C T L Y ! ! !    :beer:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

geronl

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E X A C T L Y ! ! !    :beer:

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