Cruz: Those who bolstered Trump 'will bear that responsibility going forward'

[DiogenesLamp]

And they used the same term for members of the upper house of the British parliament, I seem to recall.

The term was ubiquitous on legal documents prior to the modern era.   The foundation of the British government was God,  (as interpreted through the "Divine Right"  philosophy) and so it is no surprise that God was acknowledged on legal documents. 


It wasn't some trivial custom or habit either,   the people of that era absolutely believed in God and took acknowledgment of him seriously. 


 

And it is often stated that some of our founders were Deists, which is understandable given the religious history of the preceding 200 years, on both sides of the Atlantic.

Therefore, I find proof our founders expected rigid Christianity alone, to be unproved.

People will believe what they want to believe regardless of whatever proof is put beneath their noses.    Having all previous governing documents referring to God as the authority,  having the President exempted from working on the Christian sabbath day,  and ending the constitution with an acknowledgement of "Our Lord"   is pretty good proof for an objective mind.   

Did we forget the part about the Oath of office being sworn on the bible? 




 Now how did that ever get in there?   Don't those people know that the Federal government was supposed to be strictly non-religious?   

[DiogenesLamp]

The founders respected the concept of God-Given, unalienable Rights. (Declaration of Independence, ...are endowed by their Creator with certain Unalienable Rights, among those, Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness...)

When that Creator, that overwhelming and omniscient power, is removed from the equation, the Rights thus obtained are easy targets and their existence becomes hinged in the minds of those in power on the diktat of man.

This encapsulates a point I am constantly trying to make.   Societies founded on the ever changeable whim of man are not stable.  They rot and degrade quickly.  (by societal standards,  but imperceptibly slow by the measure of some people's lifetime.)   

[DiogenesLamp]

And they used the same term for members of the upper house of the British parliament, I seem to recall.

And it is often stated that some of our founders were Deists, which is understandable given the religious history of the preceding 200 years, on both sides of the Atlantic.

Therefore, I find proof our founders expected rigid Christianity alone, to be unproved.

I got to thinking that so many people are focusing on the words they wrote into the Constitution (such as no religious test for office)  rather than understanding them in the context of the time,  that I thought of another example where this same phenomena has repeatedly occurred. 


The Declaration of Independence says: 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


If one interprets that literally,   it effectively abolishes slavery in the United States.   


But did it really do that?    No,  it didn't.   Slavery continued in the Union states until the 13 amendment was passed on December 6, 1865.   


That's why it is important to understanding the zeitgeist before claiming a certain meaning for written words. 

[INVAR]

I got to thinking that so many people are focusing on the words they wrote into the Constitution (such as no religious test for office)  rather than understanding them in the context of the time,  that I thought of another example where this same phenomena has repeatedly occurred. 


The Declaration of Independence says: 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


If one interprets that literally,   it effectively abolishes slavery in the United States.   


But did it really do that?    No,  it didn't.   Slavery continued in the Union states until the 13 amendment was passed on December 6, 1865.   


That's why it is important to understanding the zeitgeist before claiming a certain meaning for written words.

The intent of those words were to establish the justification for the end of slavery, considering that the Colonists considered themselves slaves of the Crown.

[EtX]

Do you mean English Bob or little Bill?

I stand corrected. It is Little Bill, then again the November ending may be more like Irish Bob. shot full of holes and defiantly clicking away on empty cylinders.

[HonestJohn]

This encapsulates a point I am constantly trying to make.   Societies founded on the ever changeable whim of man are not stable.  They rot and degrade quickly.  (by societal standards,  but imperceptibly slow by the measure of some people's lifetime.)

China has existed as a separate cultural and legal entities for thousands of years.  Neither have a single religion with immutable moral codes given by G-d.  In fact, their philosophy - Confucianism - was created by a man and was never viewed as coming from a higher power.

Furthermore, their religions of Buddhism and Taoism are both viewed as creations of man, adopted because of their societal value.  Buddhism, at its core, strives to negate one's 'self' and to achieve nirvana, or non-existence.  And Taoism is much the same, following the path of non-action, wuwei.

Neither have a firm moral code or even a god or gods in their pantheon.

Yet China is one of the single longest surviving people and nation on earth.

[RoosGirl]

China has existed as a separate cultural and legal entities for thousands of years.  Neither have a single religion with immutable moral codes given by G-d.  In fact, their philosophy - Confucianism - was created by a man and was never viewed as coming from a higher power.

Furthermore, their religions of Buddhism and Taoism are both viewed as creations of man, adopted because of their societal value.  Buddhism, at its core, strives to negate one's 'self' and to achieve nirvana, or non-existence.  And Taoism is much the same, following the path of non-action, wuwei.

Neither have a firm moral code or even a god or gods in their pantheon.

Yet China is one of the single longest surviving people and nation on earth.

China doesn't vote on moral issues and policies though.

[HonestJohn]

China doesn't vote on moral issues and policies though.

The Republic of China does. (Taiwan)

But it applies to Japan as well.  They are Shinto and Buddhist.  And Shinto claims the Emperor as its head, as a living god, descended from their sun goddess, Ameterasu.

[Smokin Joe]

If not for his being killed,   he would not be regarded so highly.  If not for the massive and constant propaganda from the victors justifying the war,  he would not be regarded so highly.   

Exactly.

[RoosGirl]

The Republic of China does. (Taiwan)

But it applies to Japan as well.  They are Shinto and Buddhist.  And Shinto claims the Emperor as its head, as a living god, descended from their sun goddess, Ameterasu.

Has Buddhism changed its core beliefs?  I don't keep up with Japanese society.  Is it in the same social despair we are since they no longer have a true emperor?

[Smokin Joe]

I got to thinking that so many people are focusing on the words they wrote into the Constitution (such as no religious test for office)  rather than understanding them in the context of the time,  that I thought of another example where this same phenomena has repeatedly occurred. 


The Declaration of Independence says: 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


If one interprets that literally,   it effectively abolishes slavery in the United States.   


But did it really do that?    No,  it didn't.   Slavery continued in the Union states until the 13 amendment was passed on December 6, 1865.   


That's why it is important to understanding the zeitgeist before claiming a certain meaning for written words.

But, for the most part, the slaves were not Christians, nor even Jews, but heathen. Sold by Arab traders (Muhammedans).
All sorts of things could be justified when it came to dealing with the 'godless heathen', and were for some time afterward, because they were often regarded as less than human.
Then entire colonial (European) mindset was predicated on 'civilizing' the lesser peoples of the planet, and the advent of Darwinism only contributed to that, bolstering the idea that some people were more developed and thus more advanced humans than others. The Christian and Jewish religions were seen as indicators of that advancement and anyone else was fair game.

[musiclady]

But, for the most part, the slaves were not Christians, nor even Jews, but heathen. Sold by Arab traders (Muhammedans).
All sorts of things could be justified when it came to dealing with the 'godless heathen', and were for some time afterward, because they were often regarded as less than human.
Then entire colonial (European) mindset was predicated on 'civilizing' the lesser peoples of the planet, and the advent of Darwinism only contributed to that, bolstering the idea that some people were more developed and thus more advanced humans than others. The Christian and Jewish religions were seen as indicators of that advancement and anyone else was fair game.

Darwinism made the racism inherent in the European culture socially and academically acceptable and did significant damage to the Christian movement/Awakening that desired the abolition of slavery.

Christianity is still the prime mover in eliminating the rampant world wide slavery that exists today.

[Bigun]

Darwinism made the racism inherent in the European culture socially and academically acceptable and did significant damage to the Christian movement/Awakening that desired the abolition of slavery.

Christianity is still the prime mover in eliminating the rampant world wide slavery that exists today.

The people who captured and sold others into slavery were not Christians! To a very large extent they were Muslims!  And Muslims are the VAST majority of today's slave holders.

The VERY first slave owner in what eventually became the USA was a black man by the name of Anthony Johnson of Virginia!

[HonestJohn]

Has Buddhism changed its core beliefs?  I don't keep up with Japanese society.  Is it in the same social despair we are since they no longer have a true emperor?

When Buddhism entered China, it incorporated a ton of Taoist concepts familar to the Chinese.  And when it entered Japan, Buddhism integrated with Shintoism to the point where there were joint Buddhist/Shinto temples.  Even today, most Buddhist temples in Japan have a torii gate to show there is a Shinto shrine somewhere on the premises. 

Additionally, the foundational mythology of Shintoism came from the first commissioned Imperial histories of Japan (the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki).  This was done at the behest of the early Japanese ruler, who wanted some sort of record to prove that he was equal in stature to the Chinese emperors of the time, and the chronicles even state so.  (It basically documented the animist myths handed down from prehistoric Japan.)

To me, there isn't anything more human derived than a government commissioned historical chronicle.

Furthermore, Confucianism and Taoism both underwent substantial revisions over time, with neo-Confucianism kicking off in the Tang and Song dynasties of China and becoming *THE* foundation for Korea for at least the last 500 years.  Neo-Confucianism created the entire supernatural element (ie - heaven) for this philosophy, turning it into a quasi-religion.

And that Confucian heaven was explicitly modeled after the Chinese government of the time.  There was a Celestial Emperor and a Celestial Bureaucracy.  Gods were appointed via examination to care for the towns/villages/provinces assigned.  And if the gods failed, they were deposed.  Sometimes humans were competed in the process, with stories of some humans becoming local gods protecting their territory and people.

Taoism incorporated that wholesale as well.

And back to Shintoism/Buddhism... by the Warring States period, the two were very blurred.  Heck, Buddhism had even usurped from Shintoism the 'magic' rituals to create rain at the behest of the Emperor.  It was only afterwards, in the Tokugawa shogunate and even moreso in the Meji Restoration, did Shintoism separate itself from Buddhism.

[RoosGirl]

When Buddhism entered China, it incorporated a ton of Taoist concepts familar to the Chinese.  And when it entered Japan, Buddhism integrated with Shintoism to the point where there were joint Buddhist/Shinto temples.  Even today, most Buddhist temples in Japan have a torii gate to show there is a Shinto shrine somewhere on the premises. 

Additionally, the foundational mythology of Shintoism came from the first commissioned Imperial histories of Japan (the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki).  This was done at the behest of the early Japanese ruler, who wanted some sort of record to prove that he was equal in stature to the Chinese emperors of the time, and the chronicles even state so.  (It basically documented the animist myths handed down from prehistoric Japan.)

To me, there isn't anything more human derived than a government commissioned historical chronicle.

Furthermore, Confucianism and Taoism both underwent substantial revisions over time, with neo-Confucianism kicking off in the Tang and Song dynasties of China and becoming *THE* foundation for Korea for at least the last 500 years.  Neo-Confucianism created the entire supernatural element (ie - heaven) for this philosophy, turning it into a quasi-religion.

And that Confucian heaven was explicitly modeled after the Chinese government of the time.  There was a Celestial Emperor and a Celestial Bureaucracy.  Gods were appointed via examination to care for the towns/villages/provinces assigned.  And if the gods failed, they were deposed.  Sometimes humans were competed in the process, with stories of some humans becoming local gods protecting their territory and people.

Taoism incorporated that wholesale as well.

And back to Shintoism/Buddhism... by the Warring States period, the two were very blurred.  Heck, Buddhism had even usurped from Shintoism the 'magic' rituals to create rain at the behest of the Emperor.  It was only afterwards, in the Tokugawa shogunate and even moreso in the Meji Restoration, did Shintoism separate itself from Buddhism.

Thank you for that info.  I wonder if there isn't the kind of social upheaval we have seen here because with the Chinese and Japanese examples you are giving those changes are taking place over hundreds of years as opposed to within a generation in the US.  That's why I asked about the nature of Japan's society now since their emperor, who would have controlled what was socially accepted, has essentially been gone for 70 years now.

[DiogenesLamp]

China has existed as a separate cultural and legal entities for thousands of years.  Neither have a single religion with immutable moral codes given by G-d.  In fact, their philosophy - Confucianism - was created by a man and was never viewed as coming from a higher power.

Furthermore, their religions of Buddhism and Taoism are both viewed as creations of man, adopted because of their societal value.  Buddhism, at its core, strives to negate one's 'self' and to achieve nirvana, or non-existence.  And Taoism is much the same, following the path of non-action, wuwei.

Neither have a firm moral code or even a god or gods in their pantheon.

Yet China is one of the single longest surviving people and nation on earth.

And China remained effectively stagnant for four thousand years.   

[DiogenesLamp]

The intent of those words were to establish the justification for the end of slavery, considering that the Colonists considered themselves slaves of the Crown.

So you are arguing that they could understand the concept as it applied to themselves,   but they were completely baffled at the idea of applying it to their own slaves?   


I don't think this theory explains the facts very well. 

[DiogenesLamp]

The Republic of China does. (Taiwan)

But it applies to Japan as well.  They are Shinto and Buddhist.  And Shinto claims the Emperor as its head, as a living god, descended from their sun goddess, Ameterasu.

And they too had a "strong man"  form of society that was effectively stagnant for thousands of years.   

Yes,  both were "stable"  in one sense,   but they exhibited the stability of a subjugated people.   Left to their own devices,   they would still be farming with oxen and riding horses to get where they needed to go.   


These sorts of societies are effectively low tech feudal dictatorships.   Yes they are stable,  but they don't  advance.   

[DiogenesLamp]

But, for the most part, the slaves were not Christians, nor even Jews, but heathen. Sold by Arab traders (Muhammedans).
All sorts of things could be justified when it came to dealing with the 'godless heathen', and were for some time afterward, because they were often regarded as less than human.
Then entire colonial (European) mindset was predicated on 'civilizing' the lesser peoples of the planet, and the advent of Darwinism only contributed to that, bolstering the idea that some people were more developed and thus more advanced humans than others. The Christian and Jewish religions were seen as indicators of that advancement and anyone else was fair game.

You should read the book "The End of Racism"  by Dinesh D'Souza. 

[DiogenesLamp]

Darwinism made the racism inherent in the European culture socially and academically acceptable and did significant damage to the Christian movement/Awakening that desired the abolition of slavery.

Christianity is still the prime mover in eliminating the rampant world wide slavery that exists today.

Very much so.   Slavery is consistent with the Muslim religion.   It is contradictory to the Christian one. 

[musiclady]

Very much so.   Slavery is consistent with the Muslim religion.   It is contradictory to the Christian one.

Exactly.

The clear opposition to slavery in Christianity is exemplified by the life of John Newton, who was a slave trader until he found Christ.  Even then, he never recovered from the guilt he felt in doing what was so evil in the eyes of the Lord.

God forgave him, but he never forgave himself.

[musiclady]

The people who captured and sold others into slavery were not Christians! To a very large extent they were Muslims!  And Muslims are the VAST majority of today's slave holders.

The VERY first slave owner in what eventually became the USA was a black man by the name of Anthony Johnson of Virginia!

In Africa today, slavery is practiced by the light Muslims who enslave the dark Africans (many of whom are now Christian).

[RetBobbyMI]

In light of the comments above, the Preamble of the constitution states:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

One could argue that the "blessings" of the Liberty gained by their indepedence from British tyranny was rooted in their belief in a God and they thanked God for their "blessings of liberty."

[HonestJohn]

And China remained effectively stagnant for four thousand years.

And... that's an outrright falsehood.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

This will take a *very* long time to read.

---

Not to mention their economic developments, with stock markets and joint investment corporations... as far back as the 700's.  And their far flung trading empire of the same time, with trade ships sailing from the east coast of Africa, to the Middle East, to India and southeast Asia.

Heck, preserved advertising from the time showed local bars trying to win over patrons by advertising that they had singers from Southeast Asia and India. 

And investment books of the same time taught how to invest money so that people could retire in comfort.

---

Or their social developments, with poetry societies and mutual-aid groups.

(*Much* more could be posted... I have 20 pages saved for *THIS* topic.  And I'll be publishing an article about the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank that China wants to see replace the World Bank.  In essence, it's a rehash of the Tang dynasty and their vassalege system.  Recognize the power of the Chinese government and receive money and trade privileges in return.  And don't think America does the same, we do... and yet this system was first developed 1,300 years ago.)

[Hoodat]

As long as we're on preambles, here is the preamble to Alabama's state constitution:

We, the people of the State of Alabama, in order to establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure to ourselves and to our posterity life, liberty, and property; profoundly grateful to Almighty God for this inestimable right, and invoking His favor and guidance, do ordain and establish the following Constitution and form of government for the State of Alabama:

California:

We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure and perpetuate its blessings, do establish this Constitution.