Author Topic: Cruz: Those who bolstered Trump 'will bear that responsibility going forward'  (Read 122452 times)

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Offline INVAR

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Atmosphere and zeitgeists are created by those with followings.  The tenor and demeanor of a populace or a mob is often reflected in the type of rhetoric used.  Demagoguery and targeted ridicule often incite less-than-thinking individuals to act upon the objects being demonized by those in leadership positions or aspiring to those positions.

Leaders can inspire, motivate or incite, with the latter often being the result of poisonous demagoguery.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline HootOwl

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And those "Conservatives" who have thrown a childish hissy fit of total ignorance for months about Trump will bear responsibility for their actions going forward...forever.

.Don't turn the tables on us that didn't support Trump.  This election is the bed you Trumpsters made :chairbang:---now lie in it

Offline HootOwl

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I don't understand this argument.

Sure, there were a lot of peoole for whom Romney and McCain were not their preferred candidate, but who voted for them in the general election as a "lesser evil" than Obama.

But given that Romney (and McCain) both lost their elections, how is anything to be blamed on those who cast those losing votes? Had they not cast those votes in the general election, the only effect would have been to increase Obama's margin of victory.

So exactly what are the negative consequences of casting a losing vote for Romney for which those voters should bear "fault"?

What about the primaries??  McCain won NH and Lindsay's SC,   and then the media ran everyone else off  and the voters let them. ****sheep****

Offline Smokin Joe

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So wait a minute.  Now you're saying that the spotlight was taken off the rioters not because someone put the spotlight on Trump, but because someone pointed out that someone else was putting the spotlight on Trump.  I mean, really??
It was Cruz who caught unholy Hell for allegedly saying the rioters in the street were Trump's fault.
He didn't say that, he said they were responsible for their own actions, but Trump supporters played it up as being a victim all around.  The spotlight wasn't on the rioters, it was on Trump (as a victim) and Cruz as an alleged victimizer.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sanguine

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We have freedom of speech in this country, Sanguine. We also have the right to peaceably assemble. Trump supporters, no matter how you may think of them, should have the right to attend Trump rallies and not be accosted. Words should never lead to violence. Whatever Trump says, violence isn't deserved by people attending his rallies, who didn't even say those words and might not even support Trump. (yes I've heard of non-Trump supporters going to rallies to check them out)

Come on, WTF, you're not making sense.  Words do lead to violence, always have, probably always will, and DT is the one saying the words!

1st Amendment has nothing to do with this.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Come on, WTF, you're not making sense.  Words do lead to violence, always have, probably always will, and DT is the one saying the words!

No words do not always lead to violence. What are you talking about?

Offline Smokin Joe

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He blamed Trump for the rioters, like blaming a lady that gets raped, for the little black dress she wore.

At that point, Cruz lost support, and Trump gained support.
Where? Quote where Cruz blamed Trump for the rioters.

There was a lot of mischaracterization of what Cruz said, but Cruz did not blame the rioters on Trump.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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We have freedom of speech in this country, Sanguine. We also have the right to peaceably assemble. Trump supporters, no matter how you may think of them, should have the right to attend Trump rallies and not be accosted. Words should never lead to violence. Whatever Trump says, violence isn't deserved by people attending his rallies, who didn't even say those words and might not even support Trump. (yes I've heard of non-Trump supporters going to rallies to check them out)
I fully agree with that. No one needs Leftists rioting in the streets, whatever their 'excuse'. THose were not Cruz supporters out there, they were Soros types.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline HootOwl

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The GOPe didn't give them to you.  GOP primary voters did.  Your fellow "We the People".

Which actually illustrates why I hate that use of "We the People" when it comes to these kinds of discussions.  It really means "Me the People", as in "me and those who think like I do".  Because if you listen, you'll hear Bernie and his supporter, Hillary and her supporters, and lots of others call themselves "We the People".  Or to put it differently, "We the People" elected Barack Obama.  Twice.  So I'm not sure use of that collective is something to which we all should be so eager to embrace.

Again....I know people like to think of this malevolent "they" out there to screw us all over, but there is no "they".  There is only us, which means Joe Voter, who very often chooses candidates conservatives don't like.  Well, "You the People" are about to elect Donald Trump (unlikely) or Hillary Clinton (much more likely).


Trump won because of cross-overs too.  Those states with closed primaries voted for Cruz. Kasich never got his A$$ out till Cruz withdrew.   All those GOP who refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils are joining the ranks of Romney, McCain, Lindsay, Kasich, etc.  If Hillary gets in, it will be even more difficult for us to voice our opinions or elect who we want.  The schools will dumb-down the students, election rules will be changed, etc.  Be careful what you do. :terror:


Offline Sanguine

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No words do not always lead to violence. What are you talking about?

You added "always".  I didn't.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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You added "always".  I didn't.

Wonderful. So why are you arguing again?

Offline Norm Lenhart

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You are taking your view of what happened and assuming that everyone else saw it that same way you did.  I think that's incorrect, and honestly, I don't know how you can possibly know that.  Whether you or they ultimately are correct as to why he lost is immaterial -- it is their perceptions that will control the lessons they draw from Romney's defeat.

Look, I largely agree with you on that.  But if we both are correct on that, don't you see that the idea of "sending a message" by not supporting a nominee in the general election is doomed to failure?  I'm not saying that you or anyone else should vote for a candidate with whom they disagree simply because he's the party's nominee.  Trump is a bridge too far for me as well.  All I'm saying is that if the purpose of abstaining is to send a message, that's not a very good reason because the message is neither clearly sent, nor clearly received.

I do not see a nominee losing the election as empowering the party.

Bill, It's not what I saw happen. It's what did happen.

You understand Pavlovian conditioning, correct? For years now the GOP offers a couple things. One of those things is fear. Look across any site on the net and you will find no end of people that are convinced to the point of religious zealotry that only the GOP can win and we have to vote GOP no matter what or the world is literally going to end.

Right on this thread, this site we see it day in and day out.. No one lives in deep space, woke up one morning and had the light of God strike them with the words "Vote GOP or die". We have been conditioned for DECADES actually that it's a 2 party system and to vote any other way is madness. Literal madness if you listen to Romney, Trump, Bush2, McCain, Dole, and Bush1 people.

Now when thats they type the party tells you is your salvation, and that's the type the party tells you that will end they tyranny and the party ONLY supports, fronts and promotes that type, it's not really shocking that we the people react like Pavlovian dogs rather than get zapped by voting for anything but we were told to.

And we see examples of the behavior in nature. No Pavlov required. Throw a bunch of crabs into the boiling water. The rest of the crabs lock on and drag the one that tries to save himself back down. Since humans are in theory at least smarter than crabs (though evidence in hands makes me doubt it strongly), we use words, justification, rationalization and excuses.

It's a lesser evil...

We gotta do this this time because...next time we can vote your way but THIS time is too... (rinse/repeat every election)

A vote for X is a vote for Hillary/Obama/Anyone but who the vote is actually cast FOR.

And a thousand just like it.

Did that God ray bring us that information/revelation? No. We were programmed with it. And we refuse to even accept the premise. Because once we accept the truth of the premise, it leads to the realization that yes. we allowed ourselves to be manipulated. And most would rather die proud and ignorant with a gut full of kool aid than admit that much of their life was spent being herded like sheep.

Someone is doing that herding. Someone created the circumstance we allow ourselves to be subjected to unthinkingly.

There are exactly two options here. Two. You/we continue being led, or not. There is zero middle ground.

1: You continue electing your problems

2: You change course.

At the end of the day you do not have any wiggle room. You do one or the other. If you choose option 1, then the programming worked, the GOP keeps moving left and you are in fact/have become the very thing you hate. The uninformed LIV that emotes and feels rather than the Conservative that believes in right//wrong/constitutional governance.

The GOP is governing as leftists.
The people the GOP offers up are increasingly liberal

Those are facts born out by history. As is the determination by the majority of the right to vote for and ONLY FOR the people the GOP feeds them.

So the idea of constitutional governance by electing Republicans from the GOP is as absurd as drying off by jumping in a pool filled with water.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 03:27:42 am by Norm Lenhart »

Offline Sanguine

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Wonderful. So why are you arguing again?

OK, I'm done.  Come back when you can make sense.

Offline RoosGirl

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Bill, It's not what I saw happen. It's what did happen.

You understand Pavlovian conditioning, correct? For years now the GOP offers a couple things. One of those things is fear. Look across any site on the net and you will find no end of people that are convinced to the point of religious zealotry that only the GOP can win and we have to vote GOP no matter what or the world is literally going to end.

Right on this thread, this site we see it day in and day out.. No one lives in deep space, woke up one morning and had the light of God strike them with the words "Vote GOP or die". We have been conditioned for DECADES actually that it's a 2 party system and to vote any other way is madness. Literal madness if you listen to Romney, Trump, Bush2, McCain, Dole, and Bush1 people.

Now when thats they type the party tells you is your salvation, and that's the type the party tells you that will end they tyranny and the party ONLY supports, fronts and promotes that type, it's not really shocking that we the people react like Pavlovian dogs rather than get zapped by voting for anything but we were told to.

And we see examples of the behavior in nature. No Pavlov required. Throw a bunch of crabs into the boiling water. The rest of the crabs lock on and drag the one that tries to save himself back down. Since humans are in theory at least smarter than crabs (though evidence in hands makes me doubt it strongly), we use words, justification, rationalization and excuses.

It's a lesser evil...

We gotta do this this time because...next time we can vote your way but THIS time is too... (rinse/repeat every election)

A vote for X is a vote for Hillary/Obama/Anyone but who the vote is actually cast FOR.

And a thousand just like it.

Did that God ray bring us that information/revelation? No. We were programmed with it. And we refuse to even accept the premise. Because once we accept the truth of the premise, it leads to the realization that yes. we allowed ourselves to be manipulated. And most would rather die proud and ignorant with a gut full of kool aid than admit that much of their life was spent being herded like sheep.

Someone is doing that herding. Someone created the circumstance we allow ourselves to be subjected to unthinkingly.

There are exactly two options here. Two. You/we continue being led, or not. There is zero middle ground.

1: You continue electing your problems

2: You change course.

At the end of the day you do not have any wiggle room. You do one or the other. If you choose option 1, then the programming worked, the GOP keeps moving left and you are in fact/have become the very thing you hate. The uninformed LIV that emotes and feels rather than the Conservative that believes in right//wrong/constitutional governance.

The GOP is governing as leftists.
The people the GOP offers up are increasingly liberal

Those are facts born out by history. As is the determination by the majority of the right to vote for and ONLY FOR the people the GOP feeds them.

So the idea of constitutional governance by electing Republicans from the GOP is as absurd as drying off by jumping in a pool filled with water.

I mostly agree with you on this, Norm, but let me play a little devil's advocate here, or maybe that's not quite the right word.  Anyway, we vote for the GOP person and they keep giving us people like that (Romney, McCain, etc.)  What happens when we don't vote for them?  Do they look at the results of the election (Hillary won) and use that as an excuse to move the party, or at least the nominees, even further left?  For at least the short term we're stuck, unless/until some real leadership steps up that is capable of explaining why conservatism is a better way and people are willing to take responsibility for their own actions. 

Offline INVAR

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You understand Pavlovian conditioning, correct? For years now the GOP offers a couple things. One of those things is fear. Look across any site on the net and you will find no end of people that are convinced to the point of religious zealotry that only the GOP can win and we have to vote GOP no matter what or the world is literally going to end.

Right on this thread, this site we see it day in and day out.. No one lives in deep space, woke up one morning and had the light of God strike them with the words "Vote GOP or die". We have been conditioned for DECADES actually that it's a 2 party system and to vote any other way is madness. Literal madness if you listen to Romney, Trump, Bush2, McCain, Dole, and Bush1 people.

Now when thats they type the party tells you is your salvation, and that's the type the party tells you that will end they tyranny and the party ONLY supports, fronts and promotes that type, it's not really shocking that we the people react like Pavlovian dogs rather than get zapped by voting for anything but we were told to.

And we see examples of the behavior in nature. No Pavlov required. Throw a bunch of crabs into the boiling water. The rest of the crabs lock on and drag the one that tries to save himself back down. Since humans are in theory at least smarter than crabs (though evidence in hands makes me doubt it strongly), we use words, justification, rationalization and excuses.

It's a lesser evil...

We gotta do this this time because...next time we can vote your way but THIS time is too... (rinse/repeat every election)

A vote for X is a vote for Hillary/Obama/Anyone but who the vote is actually cast FOR.

And a thousand just like it.

Did that God ray bring us that information/revelation? No. We were programmed with it. And we refuse to even accept the premise. Because once we accept the truth of the premise, it leads to the realization that yes. we allowed ourselves to be manipulated. And most would rather die proud and ignorant with a gut full of kool aid than admit that much of their life was spent being herded like sheep.

Someone is doing that herding. Someone created the circumstance we allow ourselves to be subjected to unthinkingly.

There are exactly two options here. Two. You/we continue being led, or not. There is zero middle ground.

1: You continue electing your problems

2: You change course.

At the end of the day you do not have any wiggle room. You do one or the other. If you choose option 1, then the programming worked, the GOP keeps moving left and you are in fact/have become the very thing you hate. The uninformed LIV that emotes and feels rather than the Conservative that believes in right//wrong/constitutional governance.

The GOP is governing as leftists.
The people the GOP offers up are increasingly liberal

Those are facts born out by history. As is the determination by the majority of the right to vote for and ONLY FOR the people the GOP feeds them.

So the idea of constitutional governance by electing Republicans from the GOP is as absurd as drying off by jumping in a pool filled with water.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

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Anyway, we vote for the GOP person and they keep giving us people like that (Romney, McCain, etc.)  What happens when we don't vote for them?  Do they look at the results of the election (Hillary won) and use that as an excuse to move the party, or at least the nominees, even further left?  For at least the short term we're stuck, unless/until some real leadership steps up that is capable of explaining why conservatism is a better way and people are willing to take responsibility for their own actions.

You cannot stop the lawless with more laws.

You cannot stop corruption with that which has become corrupted.

You cannot establish justice from that which has become unjust.

You cannot vote out tyrants and the corrupt from a system that tyrants have corrupted for themselves amidst a population that has of itself become corrupt.

We are not voting ourselves out of where we are already arriving.

You cannot stop tyranny via civil means.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Norm Lenhart

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I mostly agree with you on this, Norm, but let me play a little devil's advocate here, or maybe that's not quite the right word.  Anyway, we vote for the GOP person and they keep giving us people like that (Romney, McCain, etc.)  What happens when we don't vote for them?  Do they look at the results of the election (Hillary won) and use that as an excuse to move the party, or at least the nominees, even further left?  For at least the short term we're stuck, unless/until some real leadership steps up that is capable of explaining why conservatism is a better way and people are willing to take responsibility for their own actions.

Here's the thing. You first have to get comfortable with the fact that we did not arrive here overnight, so we are not going to extract ourselves overnight. Personally I don't think fixing this is possible but I intend to do all I can to try anyway.

As such it would take several elections at least. We are never going to fix this in our lifetime. It took many decades to screw up an it will take double that to set right. Assuming it is fixable at all. We have to begin the process for our kids.

But you have to start. If not now, when? 10 years ago I said this stuff. Today we would be 10 years advanced in the process. And I was far from the only guy in America saying this.

Every election all we hear is why we can't. Why next time we will but not this time. Personally I'm tired of apologizing to my daughter for the world we collectively are leaving her.

If the GOP does not get votes, it goes away. Might take a couple elections but the Whigs will tell you nothing remains without voters. No group will invest in a dead party.

You need black and white. Left/right. Grey in political parties is what we have now where the GOP promotes leftism and the DNC talks patriotism. So you work on what you can. Eliminating the gray/left from the right. And you do that by stripping the people providing that ambiguity of power and control.

Offline RoosGirl

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Here's the thing. You first have to get comfortable with the fact that we did not arrive here overnight, so we are not going to extract ourselves overnight. Personally I don't think fixing this is possible but I intend to do all I can to try anyway.

As such it would take several elections at least. We are never going to fix this in our lifetime. It took many decades to screw up an it will take double that to set right. Assuming it is fixable at all. We have to begin the process for our kids.

But you have to start. If not now, when? 10 years ago I said this stuff. Today we would be 10 years advanced in the process. And I was far from the only guy in America saying this.

Every election all we hear is why we can't. Why next time we will but not this time. Personally I'm tired of apologizing to my daughter for the world we collectively are leaving her.

If the GOP does not get votes, it goes away. Might take a couple elections but the Whigs will tell you nothing remains without voters. No group will invest in a dead party.

You need black and white. Left/right. Grey in political parties is what we have now where the GOP promotes leftism and the DNC talks patriotism. So you work on what you can. Eliminating the gray/left from the right. And you do that by stripping the people providing that ambiguity of power and control.

It's like just starting out with prepping....you know you need to do it, but where do you start?

Offline Norm Lenhart

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It's like just starting out with prepping....you know you need to do it, but where do you start?

The voting booth. This election. It's gonna hurt. But there is no real choice to be made. Yoda logic. Do or do not. There is no try. Might be a fictional little guy, but his writers got it dead on right.

Offline RoosGirl

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The voting booth. This election.

Yep!  Good a place as any.  I've got 20 years of voting errors to fix.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Yep!  Good a place as any.  I've got 20 years of voting errors to fix.

McCain was my last. Never again. I voted for him to get Palin. Clearly that was a bad idea/Mistake. All it did was ensure that they run a 'Romeny' in 12 and keep the cycle going..

Offline Meshuge Mikey

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Trump said he didn't need us, remember?  So did many Trump supporters, earlier in the game...we were told he'd win without us, that the Trump train was unstoppable.

What changed?


The Donny is oossesed of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder!! 


th leading authority on Malignant Narcissism has presented the whole story as to how these people operate and what AILS them!  I recommend it undreservedly! 


 



https://twitter.com/samvaknin/status/713004233986076672
Have Indentified as a Male since birth!

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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  Anyway, we vote for the GOP person and they keep giving us people like that (Romney, McCain, etc.)  What happens when we don't vote for them?  Do they look at the results of the election (Hillary won) and use that as an excuse to move the party, or at least the nominees, even further left? 

Generally, yes.  That's exactly what happens.  This case may be different just because Trumo's flaws are pretty obvious.

There are only two ways to reverse this: 1) nominate more conservative GOP nominees, or 2) start another, more conservative party. 

Personally, i think 1) is by far the best ootion. Creating a new party doesn't manufacture any greter number of conservstive voters.  It's just having the conservatives that already exist splinter off.  And if there aren't even enough of us to gain control of the 30% of the electorate represented by the GOP, then how would there be enough for that third party to win anything.

The math says our best shot is to keep working to nominate a good conservative nominee.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 07:14:30 am by Maj. Bill Martin »

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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OK, I'm done.  Come back when you can make sense.

I think I laid out my argument clearly and cogently. Both Trump supporters and detractors seemed to be able to understand it and many if not most agreed with it.

You seem to be the only one with a problem here.

Online DB

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I think I laid out my argument clearly and cogently. Both Trump supporters and detractors seemed to be able to understand it and many if not most agreed with it.

You seem to be the only one with a problem here.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. You said words should never lead to violence. Wars, real wars, start with words that move people to action. Words can be very powerful things.