Author Topic: “A Republic, if you can keep it.” Donald Trump and the Tyranny of the Mob…  (Read 25158 times)

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Offline musiclady

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He's given even more to democrats.   Neither of which is really a factor.   He's a liberal because he has supported liberal causes for decades.  Only recently has he started adopting some conservative positions.

Minor correction........ "Only recently has he started saying he has adopted some conservative positions.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline driftdiver

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Source??????

You know the sources.  From Venture, mcCauliff, Clinton, Bloomberg, and on and on.   He's done it as recently as the VA government campaign where he gave 25k to the guy who ran the DNC before running for this office.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline driftdiver

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Minor correction........ "Only recently has he started saying he has adopted some conservative positions.

Thank you.  Of course we have nothing of significance to show he has had a change in heart.   All we have is a good speech.   We do have statements to indicate he still retains his liberal positions.   From ore the bathrooms to taxes to govt run Healthcare.

Sorry I need ml ore proof.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

A-Lert

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You know the sources.  From Venture, mcCauliff, Clinton, Bloomberg, and on and on.   He's done it as recently as the VA government campaign where he gave 25k to the guy who ran the DNC before running for this office.


You stated, "He's given even more to democrats."  Please provide the source for that claim.

Offline Bigun

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"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline musiclady

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Thank you.  Of course we have nothing of significance to show he has had a change in heart.   All we have is a good speech.   We do have statements to indicate he still retains his liberal positions.   From ore the bathrooms to taxes to govt run Healthcare.

Sorry I need ml ore proof.

Exactly right. 

We have no concrete proof that he has changed any of his liberal positions, and significant evidence that he still maintains them.  (His support of Planned Parenthood is another recent example).


As the saying goes..... Talk is cheap.  There's been no evidence that he actually believes any of the "conservative" positions he's claiming to now magically have.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline don-o

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Ah, I see you found your way here, too.  Were you banned at FR, or did you just leave in disgust? 

Not banned yet. My last post was goading onyx about the Wide Awakes. If I must be zotted, I really want it to be for the stupidest reason possible. I have tried, "Donald Trump has never repented of his sins. Pray for Donald Trump" a few times.

I am thinking the Mike Tyson gambit may be worth a play. Got a thread posted and pulled yesterday. It was, of all things, Bristo Palin blasting Tyson when he was talking about raping her mother. The mods are deleting any mention of his name.

I am very pleased to see you here. 

And by anticipation: Christ is risen!

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Not banned yet. My last post was goading onyx about the Wide Awakes. If I must be zotted, I really want it to be for the stupidest reason possible. I have tried, "Donald Trump has never repented of his sins. Pray for Donald Trump" a few times.

I am thinking the Mike Tyson gambit may be worth a play. Got a thread posted and pulled yesterday. It was, of all things, Bristo Palin blasting Tyson when he was talking about raping her mother. The mods are deleting any mention of his name.

I am very pleased to see you here. 

And by anticipation: Christ is risen!

Wide Awakes!

Ha!

The intrigue.

The plotting.

The hostile takeover!

Sigh...

Those were the days.

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline driftdiver

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You stated, "He's given even more to democrats."  Please provide the source for that claim.

No.  There are a myriad of sources and I'm done playing that game.  Trump has always been a liberal.

Now he says he's a conservative.  All he has to show is a good speech spoken at the 4th grade level.   He wants to be President based on  his conservative credentials.  It's up to him to prove it.

We all know he won't and Trump supporters sure aren't gonna hold his feet to the fire.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline don-o

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THIS IS NOT THE OPINION OF TBR, ONLY MY PERSONAL ONE, THAT DOES NOT INFLUENCE THIS SITE,  AS IT DOES AT FR :beer:


 

 This post is not meant to be debated, only to express the reason why.

We are all in this together, whether some of you believe it or not, and I do hope we can all stay friends, and realize the dems are the problems, not each other.  :grouphug:

No debate, then. But, an appreciation for the straight up advocacy well stated. And THAT is what I like to see prevail over winning arguments at all costs.

You did not change my mind though. Does anyone ever?

Offline HootOwl

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Trump, the candidate with the most to lose if he isn't a good POTUS.

No, my friend America and its citizens have the most to lose if Trump, POTUS, screws the Country.  Ben Franklin first said when a woman asked him, after the Constitution was completed, 'what have you given us, BF?" And Ben replied, "A republic , IF YOU CAN KEEP IT".  The Constitution was intentionally designed to make it difficult to change.  But some worried about SCOTUS having too much power.  Our Founding Fathers were genii. (that's why Common-core has removed :0001: :0001: the founding fathers  when teaching American  American history. God help us.

Offline Eowyn

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What bothers me the most is the open disdain Trump and so many of his supporters (not all) seem to have for reasoned argument, and particularly, the vehemence with which some of them attack those who are educated.  One thing I learned in the military is that it is horribly wrong to look down on someone because they lack education -  some of my enlisted Marines were among the sharpest, highest-quality individuals I've ever known.   But it is perhaps even worse to look down on someone precisely because they are educated.  They seem to hate the "fancy-talking elites" with a true passion, as if being able to write a coherent paragraph is evidence of some moral failing.  It is not only the dumbing down of the Republic, but a celebration of dumbing it down.

I've known noticed this as well.

Offline BigHomer

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"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." ~ Benjamin Franklin

Offline Smokin Joe

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THIS IS NOT THE OPINION OF TBR, ONLY MY PERSONAL ONE, THAT DOES NOT INFLUENCE THIS SITE,  AS IT DOES AT FR :beer:


LET'S make sure we get the quote correct, it works best when using it as an argument.  I realize you did acknowledge, you didnt think Trump supporters were stupid, but we need to get the quote in context for everyone else, that seems to forget that part. :patriot:

poor choice of words, but since Trump is not a polished politician, he does make faux pas, but his heart is in the right place.

I had rather him say that verses a politician, using double speak and we have to wonder what he means.
Yes he does reverse himself, at  times, because his mouth, like a lot of us, runs before his brain thinks.
That is what makes him real and not a politician.

LIke it or not, he is honest in what he says. I am at the point myself that it is refreshing to hear someone tell it like it is, even if it is politically incorrect.

It doesn't matter to Trump supporters, what he did in business, because, any of the politicians, have done much worse to move up the ladder. That includes ALL OF THEM.

You can't paint us all with a small brush, because we are a very diverse group, and we are not all conservatives, republicans, democrats or libertarians, but just regular people.
When a candidate, says they will get the fraud out of govt spending, and cut out the fat, from the most egregious parts of govt, that resonates for a larger group of people than the GOP

I am a conservative, but I am not looking for a preacher! I am looking for someone that will get down and dirty with our enemies and kick their asses.

I have watched Trump for many years, and since he was a younger business man, he has said, he could fix this country.

Call me what you want, but I believe him.  He has been right over the years on everything that has gone wrong, before it happened.
He is a rare creature.
He is not a liberal. He is a Capitalist, which in itself, nullifies him being a liberal.
He passionately wants us to be the greatest country in the world again.
He doesnt need to do this.
He could live the rest of his life, rich and happy, while our country turns into a socialist haven for more, nefarious politicians lining their pockets with our money.
YOu need to think a minute... He is not wanting absolute power.  That is a mem put out by his detractors. 

He is not the establishment. The establishment are the ones that make money off the lobbyists that greased palms.

Trump has already told us, that he played the game as did others , but he knows it has caused us, along with Obama, Bush and Clinton to be in the shape we are in now.
He never said, he didnt profit from all these regimes. He told us all what was going on.

You can think of him what you want, but I can see a basically good person, that really wants to help us establish,our place on top again.

I dont dislike Ted Cruz, but I dont think he can do it.

Trump knows how to play the game to get what he/we want.
While Ted is a noble man,
He still thinks, it is all about his honorable, ideas. I commend him for that.

You can disagree with me, and I have no problem with that. Everyone has an opinion.
I am only telling you what I know the trump supporters want.

There is no need and telling us what terrible things he did 25 years ago, no one cares.

We know that right now, he is serious about saving our country.
He has an awesome family, and they would not go down a path, to ruin, if he was what the old media, say he is.
These are great kids, and know their dad is special.
Whether or not he was an ogre, in the past, he is not that person now.

I know most of you won't agree, and that is fine,
 but we all need to get together to beat Hillary.

I will do my part if Ted, does prevail, and I will work hard for him.
But I would prefer, he and Trump make up and run together, but sadly I think that ship sailed.

All the Trump supporters here will vote for Cruz, because we care about the republic, and supreme court first.

What the rest of you do, us up to you and your conscience and that is tota.lly acceptable to us.

We are all AMERICANS wanting the best for our country, we just have a different idea on how to do it. But we are all still on the same side.

I said all this to explain how we feel, but to also let everyone understand that we can all work together, after the primary for the greater good of the country, regardless of the outcome. :patriot:

 This post is not meant to be debated, only to express the reason why.

We are all in this together, whether some of you believe it or not, and I do hope we can all stay friends, and realize the dems are the problems, not each other.  :grouphug:


A couple of quick points. I know a lot of people who aren't politicians who think before they speak. They still call them as they see them, they still don't pull punches, but they DO have their stuff in a group before they say anything, and very rarely have to back water on something they say. Being a businessman, especially at the billion dollar level, one would think that process would be old hat. Apparently not.

The other point I want to make is that while we all want to see the fat trimmed, and waste eliminated, fundamentally, I don't want a leaner meaner more efficient government, I want one Hell of a lot less Government in the first place. Government does a lot that it has no Constitutional Authority to do, no mandate, and should not be doing at all. Being more efficient at that is not a winner, it is just a more efficient way to have the power which should be reserved to the States and to the People usurped.

I have a host of misgivings about the way Mr. Trump has conducted his business activities. You don't, and on that we will disagree. I think his behaviour in any venue is an indicator of character, and I think character counts. So, from his pejorative laced communiques to his attempting to hire the attorney for the lady involved in the Kelo case in NJ, I don't find him trustworthy based on his past.

YMMV, and thanks for spelling it out.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Indeed, of course, when Hindenburg asked Hitler to form a minority government, Hitler wasn't a mass murdering dictator either, just a purveyor of sketchy ideas based on emotion rather than ordered thought.  This summer may see an even stronger analogy between America and Weimar Germany if the Trumpists take to the streets, in which case we'll have left-right street battles between them and the BLM types analogous to the Nazi-Communist street battles in 1920's, early 1930's Germany.
There are distinct socioeconomic similarities between America today and Weimar Germany, and those are the real cause for concern. A person who could have been a Hitler would not have reached that pinnacle of evil without the fertile situation in which he developed, they would have been a mere footnote instead of the subject of libraries.

But because the poor economy, high unemployment ("low workforce participation"), a ready-made scapegoat class (welfare recipients, invading illegals, and 'refugees'), the perception of lost military effectiveness due to mismanagement at political levels, the slide in national prestige on the world stage, and the question of national debt, all exist, one who promises to solve our ills and take care of the undesirables, to put the country back to work, and improve the economy (while beating the Communists!) will indeed receive a great deal of support. Perhaps far more than they should, and there are plenty of mechanisms in place by which an already largely nationalized police force and myriad agencies can impose totalitarianism without passing a single new law, just ignoring some fundamental old ones.

Human nature says that as long as those abuses are aimed at the targets of the majority's angst or anger, the abusive nature of those actions will be ignored or encouraged, and the cries to quash such dissent as may appear will be shrill, indeed

Comparing any politician now who isn't a full blown totalitarian with someone with the power and existing mechanisms to just dive in and start extermination of entire subgroups would be folly. (Sorry, once you enter the arena, you become a politician, regardless of your old job.)

What makes such difficult to spot is that it must be done in a far less developed, almost larval stage, not as a fully developed entity. It is the bad seed in fertile ground that burns whole continents.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline BigHomer

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There are distinct socioeconomic similarities between America today and Weimar Germany, and those are the real cause for concern. A person who could have been a Hitler would not have reached that pinnacle of evil without the fertile situation in which he developed, they would have been a mere footnote instead of the subject of libraries.

But because the poor economy, high unemployment ("low workforce participation"), a ready-made scapegoat class (welfare recipients, invading illegals, and 'refugees'), the perception of lost military effectiveness due to mismanagement at political levels, the slide in national prestige on the world stage, and the question of national debt, all exist, one who promises to solve our ills and take care of the undesirables, to put the country back to work, and improve the economy (while beating the Communists!) will indeed receive a great deal of support. Perhaps far more than they should, and there are plenty of mechanisms in place by which an already largely nationalized police force and myriad agencies can impose totalitarianism without passing a single new law, just ignoring some fundamental old ones.

Human nature says that as long as those abuses are aimed at the targets of the majority's angst or anger, the abusive nature of those actions will be ignored or encouraged, and the cries to quash such dissent as may appear will be shrill, indeed

Comparing any politician now who isn't a full blown totalitarian with someone with the power and existing mechanisms to just dive in and start extermination of entire subgroups would be folly. (Sorry, once you enter the arena, you become a politician, regardless of your old job.)

What makes such difficult to spot is that it must be done in a far less developed, almost larval stage, not as a fully developed entity. It is the bad seed in fertile ground that burns whole continents.


Excellent analysis. Both of you.  :beer:
"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." ~ Benjamin Franklin

A-Lert

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No.  There are a myriad of sources and I'm done playing that game.  Trump has always been a liberal.

Now he says he's a conservative.  All he has to show is a good speech spoken at the 4th grade level.   He wants to be President based on  his conservative credentials.  It's up to him to prove it.

We all know he won't and Trump supporters sure aren't gonna hold his feet to the fire.

There is no "game". You lied and you were called on it. Be an adult and take responsibility.

Offline DCPatriot

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There is no "game". You lied and you were called on it. Be an adult and take responsibility.

A much easier way to stay out of trouble would be to say instead, "Let the evidence show that @driftdiver can't support.....", and move on.

You know you're in the cross-hairs 

Deep breaths....Deep breaths...      :laugh:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Trump has contributed nearly a half million dollars to the Republican party in the last decade. Is that liberal? How much have Cruz and Kasich contributed? (Both on the government payroll)
When we question his donations to Democrats, we are assured that that is 'just business'. In that light, I attribute the same heartfelt sense of principle to his Republican donations: "just business".

Ideologically, they mean noting or they mean something, but my bet is on the former, buying access to TPTB and nothing more. Had his contributions been solely to Republicans, I might be able to give him the benefit of the doubt.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Wingnut

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A much easier way to stay out of trouble would be to say instead, "Let the evidence show that @driftdiver can't support.....", and move on.

You know you're in the cross-hairs 

Deep breaths....Deep breaths...      :laugh:

Some "Interventions" work.  Some...not so much.  :beer:

Offline musiclady

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The "it's just business" excuse has never seemed very persuasive to me.  You have plenty of closely-held businesses, like Koch Industries, Facebook, etc., who give political donations only to one side.  And yet, it doesn't seem to prevent them from being very successful.

The most logical conclusion to be draw from that is that Trump never really cared about those issues very much at all.  Which is kind of odd for a guy running for President, because you'd like to think anyone wanting that job would be doing so because of some pretty deeply held convictions.

It's clear that he never had convictions about most issues because he has completely reversed most of the things he's said in the past, and even of late has voiced basically opposite views, sometimes in the same interview.

In a recent interview on Life issues, it was painfully evident that he had never even given a thought to the reality of abortion, or what Pro-life groups do.  (It was the interview when he said that women who have abortions should be punished and sent to jail.  **nononono* ).  And it had been evident also in the debate when he fully supported Planned Parenthood while claiming to be Pro-Life.

He just hasn't thought about issues at all.  And for me, that is frightening when you think that he's trying to become the most powerful person on the planet.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline driftdiver

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There is no "game". You lied and you were called on it. Be an adult and take responsibility.

I lied?  Nonsense

Everytime the issue of his donation s come up Trump's defenders go off the deep end.  It's been posted and is readily available that he's given heavily to democrats.  I clouding mccauliff in the last election.

Trump chose to help democrats.   Whatever his reason they have benefits from his choices.   

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a lie.
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline musiclady

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I lied?  Nonsense

Everytime the issue of his donation s come up Trump's defenders go off the deep end.  It's been posted and is readily available that he's given heavily to democrats.  I clouding mccauliff in the last election.

Trump chose to help democrats.   Whatever his reason they have benefits from his choices.   

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a lie.

Obviously you didn't lie.  We all know that.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

A-Lert

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A much easier way to stay out of trouble would be to say instead, "Let the evidence show that @driftdiver can't support.....", and move on.

You know you're in the cross-hairs 

Deep breaths....Deep breaths...      :laugh:

I've been told "nobody likes you" so I'm not surprised I'm in the cross-hairs of the anti-Trump clique/cult  I believe in being forthright, but not vulgar. I have little patience with posters who knowingly lie.  I was at the Doctor yesterday and my BP is 129/64. Not bad for a senior.

Offline The Jackal

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I lied?  Nonsense

Everytime the issue of his donation s come up Trump's defenders go off the deep end.  It's been posted and is readily available that he's given heavily to democrats.  I clouding mccauliff in the last election.

Trump chose to help democrats.   Whatever his reason they have benefits from his choices.   

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a lie.

Agree. When I found out that Trump donated to California AG Kamala Harris, the queen of sanctuary cities, and who recently authorized a Cal DOJ raid against David Daleiden the guy responsible for the planned parenthood videos it sickened me. If you ask any conservative Californian about Harris  they will tell you there is no excuse for donating to her.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 09:29:22 pm by The Jackal »